One more thing the trainer said

>
> Again just now, she was kicking her bone around with her foot and he
> took off straight for it. She saw him coming, froze, wrinkled her head all
> up, and looked at me. Then she just watched him. I chose to let him (with me
> within arm's reach) get right under her nose, where she proceeded to sniff
> his head and wag. Then just as I was about to do something, he decided to
> leave without touching the bone, which I think was darned helpful of him.
> --Katrina

This could have been tragic. It's not fair to the dog to set her up to
resource guard when you are just beginning resource guarding training,
and you should NEVER use the baby to test her. Same thing with the
coffee table scenario, you let the baby essentially trap her; to a dog
it's fight or flight, and this also could have been tragic.

Many dogs have a problem with crawling babies, I had a GSD who did not
care for my daughter as a crawling baby. My dog never snapped at the
baby, but she did flutter her lips at her when the baby crawled towards
her.
As soon as my daughter started walking, the dog was fine with her. But
during that time, I was very careful to never set the dog up to be
trapped or threatened by the baby.
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said 

Well I don't don't buy the whole yawning thing as being a sign she is under
stress. Lady does this quite often when I take her out to play and I tell
her it's time to come in. She will deliberatley run out into the yard lay
down and put her head on her teddy bear and yawn then look away at me. To
me it's like an kid saying "awwww mom I don't want to come in yet" Usally I
just tell her come on and raise my voice just a bit and she then comes in.

Everything else sounds like you are on the right track. Although I don't
get why it's not OK to allow her on the furniture. This can be very
confusing for a dog who has been allowed on the furniture in the past.
Unless you are having a growling issue when you tell her to move or get down
I don't see the reason for it.

Celeste



"White Monkey" <k.m.c.ooper DeleteThis @chello.nl> wrote in message
news:4348b7ef$0$11062$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> So far so good here, we're getting Saskia out a lot more, playing ball and
> things more instead of just taking her to places where she can run and
> play with other dogs, working more on reinforcing basic obedience, making
> sure she sees the baby as a positive influence ("Look, Saskia, Walter's
> awake! Now we can go for a walk!"), etc. She seems calmer and her
> self-confidence seems a bit better again.
>
> Meanwhile, the trainer told me to stop letting her on furniture, to not
> make a big deal out of the baby handling her things, and to let her know
> how things are going in about a month. She also said something I wanted to
> run by you folks.
>
> Saskia yawns when we rub her cheeks. She yawns when she's been being a
> butt head (like not wanting to come in after a potty trip) and we tell her
> firmly to do it (she yawns and comes in), she yawns when we call her over,
> and after the growl incident at the baby she yawned at him and looked
> away. Now, I thought this was a submission gesture, meant to indicate
> non-aggression. The trainer, however, said it means stress, that Saskia is
> always under high stress when she does it. I asked, "What about if Saskia
> ambles over, leans against my legs, wags, and solicits petting of her
> side, and when I do pet her side like she likes, she yawns?" Trainer:
> "Stress. She doesn't really like it. She's stressed out."
>
> Now, I'm not so sure I buy this. What do you folks feel about this one?
> For the record, if I wasn't keeping an open mind about it I would not be
> posting to try to explore it.
>
> --Katrina
>
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said 

In article <JS72f.403$KR1.41@trndny06>, Spot <noSPAMme DeleteThis @somewhere.net> wrote:
>Well I don't don't buy the whole yawning thing as being a sign she is under
>stress.

Sometimes dogs yawn because they're stressed, sometimes they
yawn for other reasons. I don't see how it's possible to
know which is which unless you're savvy enough to tell the
difference but especially not unless you've observed the dog.

>Although I don't
>get why it's not OK to allow her on the furniture.

I've found that disallowing dogs on the furniture even when
they've been allowed up in the past can be part of sending a
very clear message about how much latitude the dog does or
does not have, as long as the new rule is applied
consistently. I have one dog who could be counted on to
start a fight with one of the other dogs within a day after
jumping up on my bed. Denying him bed privileges was one
piece of putting a stop to his fighting.

>Unless you are having a growling issue when you tell her to move or get down
>I don't see the reason for it.

The reason is to teach the dog that she doesn't have the
prerogatives she seems to think she has.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore DeleteThis @panix.com

The total national debt is now $7,932,709,661,723.50.
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said 

In article <3qssj8Fgl1udU1 RemoveThis @individual.net>, Sionnach <rhyfelwr RemoveThis @msn.com> wrote:
> Finally, I think your trainer is missing the point - YOU are not the ones
>whose relationship with the dog is the problem. The problem is in WALTER'S
>relationship with the dog.

It seems to me that the "dominance" issue with dogs has a
lot more to do with the dog thinking it gets to make certain
decisions than it does to do with the dog always doing this
or the dog always doing that. I haven't seen the dog and
neither have you, but while other trainers might choose to
use different language from what this one is using (and I
certainly would) I don't think that he/she is fundamentally
incorrect. The dog is not entitled to make the kinds of
decisions she's making.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore RemoveThis @panix.com

The total national debt is now $7,932,709,661,723.50.
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said 

"Sionnach" wrote:

> Reinforcing that you're "alpha", in fact, may make the dog *more* likely
> to start up something with other lower-ranking members of the pack - which
> Saskia clearly sees Walter as being.

To clarify that: I don't think that non-confrontationally and calmly
reinforcing the fact that you're the pack leader is something that will
cause problems.
However, I have seen serious problems caused when people who are not not
natural pack leaders, and who have had problems with the dog, suddenly start
trying to enforce "alpha" status.

Remind me, btw - how old is Saskia, again? Isn't she an adolescent?
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said 

>
> Meanwhile, the trainer told me to stop letting her on furniture


if you really want to listen to the trainer but hate to ban her from the
furniture, maybe you could just teach her to always get permission from you
before getting up?
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said 

"White Monkey" <k.m.c.ooper.RemoveThis@chello.nl> wrote in
news:43490e34$0$11078$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl:

> The trainer stated that "dogs allowed on furniture feel equal to or
> dominant over their owners" and that they become confused. She says
> that allowing her on the furniture is the "most damaging" thing we
> have done in bringing her up, and directly related with the two
> incidents involving the baby. We don't
>

I agree with Melinda that denying furniture privileges is just one part
of showing the dogs that they're not in charge. It's the whole "humans
control the resources" thing.

Zoe can be a pushy little character and makes occasional attempts to take
over the household. She's been fine for quite a while now, but I really
had to make a lot of the rules clear for her. I just do a modified
"nothing in life is free" program -- she has to do something for me
before I give her things, like sitting or shaking my hand before getting
a treat or some pets. When things are going well I ease up on this
somewhat. When things are going badly I add stuff, like throwing her off
the furniture unless she is invited. But mostly I maintain a pretty
consistent structure in which it is clear that I am the boss.

This did not come naturally to me, as people here can attest. But I will
tell you something that may alleviate some of your concerns about trying
it: Zoe became much happier when I took firm control of things. And so
did I.

Wrt the yawning question, I've always heard that yawning is calming for
dogs -- so they might do it to calm themselves down when they are
stressed (I've seen both of my dogs do this) but they might also do it
when they're relaxed and are kind of reveling in that relaxation, kind of
like how a human might let out a big sigh when soaking in a hot tub.

Also I think they might do it when they're tired!

--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Rosalie the calico
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said 

ceb wrote:

<snip>
>
> Wrt the yawning question, I've always heard that yawning is calming for
> dogs -- so they might do it to calm themselves down when they are
> stressed (I've seen both of my dogs do this) but they might also do it
> when they're relaxed and are kind of reveling in that relaxation, kind of
> like how a human might let out a big sigh when soaking in a hot tub.
>
> Also I think they might do it when they're tired!

Primates threat-yawn, but I've never seen anything similar in any of my
dogs.

Pretty much the only time I see them yawn is while lounging on their big
fluffy beds in the living room. If they happen to notice you watching,
it's usually followed by a backward flick of the ears and a couple of
tail thumps - the canine equivalent of a sheepish grin - followed by
flopping down flat and sighing happily.

Kathleen
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said 

In article <Bra2f.9948$v97.5044@fe04.lga>,
Kathleen <khhfmdelete RemoveThis @thischarter.net> wrote:
>Primates threat-yawn, but I've never seen anything similar in any of my
>dogs.

I don't think I've seen anybody claim that dogs "threat-
yawn," but I don't think that there's any question when they
do it when they're under stress or when they want to
communicate to another dog that they're *not* a threat. I
suppose a rough human analog could be feigning nonchalance.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore RemoveThis @panix.com

The total national debt is now $7,932,709,661,723.50.
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said 

Thanks, all! The thing we "don't buy" is that allowing dogs on furniture
always automatically trains them to be confused about dominance issues and
therefore is without question the root cause of what has happened here and
all that needs to be addressed to fix it. We do see how denying the
furniture right reasserts OUR dominance, and we'll be doing it. We also see
now how it could have contributed to any feelings of potential outranking
she may have about the baby, we just rather doubt it's the end-all-be-all
total-root-cause-horrifying-thing she made it out to be.

As to a trainer who can see Saskia in person, yes, I agree, and once we're
moved to Haarlem we'll be looking for one there. Meanwhile, though, after
talking with her again about this issue, we ARE somewhat dissatisfied with
the trainer we have used on occasion, because she "doesn't have time" to see
the problem through with us in person or even on the phone (and I mean for
pay, not charity work) and "doesn't want to hear about it again" (unless it
gets worse) for a month while we try the only thing she's really suggested
(aside from reading "Think Dog", which we will order), which is keep the dog
off the furniture. She sounded brusque and a) didn't feel a need to meet
with us and the dog about it, which we thought a bit odd, and b) never once
asked me what I did about it when the dog growled or snapped toward the
baby, which we also thought a bit odd. She just doesn't seem to want to get
involved. We'd rather someone who did.

So we will try to consult with this recommended woman long-distance while
researching through the local Danes society who the people with similar
problems have liked (in our new area) for this sort thing.

Thanks again folks,
Katrina
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said 

> Something that nobody has mentioned here, btw: are you familiar with the
> concept of "puppy license"? It has struck me all along that part of what
> may be going on here is that Walter's "puppy license" with Saskia has
> started to expire.


This is very much something that I think plays a significant factor, as does
Saskia's just-coming-into-her-own tender age of 1 1/2. I remain confident
that if we can manage this and get through it without further incident it
will become a phase instead of a lifelong worry. At least I hope so.
--Katrina
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said 

"Sionnach" <rhyfelwr.TakeThisOut@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3qst91FgobmjU1@individual.net...
>
> "Sionnach" wrote:
>
>> Reinforcing that you're "alpha", in fact, may make the dog *more*
>> likely
>> to start up something with other lower-ranking members of the pack -
>> which
>> Saskia clearly sees Walter as being.
>
> To clarify that: I don't think that non-confrontationally and calmly
> reinforcing the fact that you're the pack leader is something that will
> cause problems.
> However, I have seen serious problems caused when people who are not not
> natural pack leaders, and who have had problems with the dog, suddenly
> start
> trying to enforce "alpha" status.
>
> Remind me, btw - how old is Saskia, again? Isn't she an adolescent?


She is. We understand what she's going through and that we need to be very
consistent right now, and have been failing this utterly the last few weeks.
Well, maybe not utterly, but enough to really matter. We've corrected this
now.

We also feel and hope that we are good leaders--firm but not harsh,
demanding that she do what we tell her and not do what she knows she's not
allowed to do (graze from the table or high chair for example), and also
loving and friendly and entertaining. We never expect her to do just
something she hasn't leaned, and we always expect her to do something she
has learned when she knows it's time to do it.

We try to be flexible, too--just now Walter decided to go along between the
coffee table and the couch, walking sideways, and it's narrow there and
Saskers was standing there and wanted to get out of his way. She couldn't go
backward or forward because she knows not to when the baby is crawling or
cruising alongside or under her. In a desperate move, she got onto the
Forbidden Sofa, by going straight sideways, and watched him go by. Then she
looked at me. I chose not to reprimand for getting on the sofa, but I did
insist quietly that she immediately get off, and when she hesitated (Danes
can be stubborn) I was firm. She then took *three* feet off the sofa (Danes
can be stubborn), but we have taught her the words "all the way", and she
knows darn well she'd better do it if we say that, whether it's complete a
sit from a goofy crouch or get the rest of the way off the sofa.

We expect a lot of her but we can always see that she tries very hard to do
what we want unless she's having a stubborn moment, then she'll push it so
far and cave, every time. She really is trying to do right around him, too.
Really. Again just now, she was kicking her bone around with her foot and he
took off straight for it. She saw him coming, froze, wrinkled her head all
up, and looked at me. Then she just watched him. I chose to let him (with me
within arm's reach) get right under her nose, where she proceeded to sniff
his head and wag. Then just as I was about to do something, he decided to
leave without touching the bone, which I think was darned helpful of him.
--Katrina
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said 

"MauiJNP" <jmh1116 RemoveThis @ptd.net> wrote in message
news:8Y-cnZoiHNcVxtTeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
> >
>> Meanwhile, the trainer told me to stop letting her on furniture
>
>
> if you really want to listen to the trainer but hate to ban her from the
> furniture, maybe you could just teach her to always get permission from
> you before getting up?



Oh, we don't mind not letting her up, we just question whether doing so in
the first place caused this situation. But we're going to allow her to get
onto the bed briefly and after sitting down and waiting for one of us to say
OK, when she just wants to say hi before going to bed on HER bed. I can't
see that doing a heck of a lot of harm, especially as Walter will ALSO be
getting on the bed but not sleeping there.
Thanks,
Katrina
 >> Stay informed about: One more thing the trainer said