separation anxiety treatment -- relapses

"molly" <mollybloom7.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1151444010.988311.202660@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
snipping to the pertinent parts
> There had previously been tiny relapses. For example, if one of us was
> home for several days (i.e. they were not left alone at any time during
> the day) then they might fuss a little the next time we went out. So
> we'd cut back the time (say from one hour to 1/2 hour) and work it back
> up.

when it comes to separation issues, while it *is* important to build up
slowly, the *most* important thing to work on is the first 15 minutes. I'd
rather have a client leave 10 times for 15 minutes (don't do this, its just
an exaggerated example), than leave once for 4 hours.

Actually, if I could have you do anything, I would have you pretend to
leave, and at the point they start showing ANY sign of stress (which may be
just when you put your coat on), *back up*, and just go through the
preceeding motions, and that motion dozens of times until they stop caring.
The point of slow building when dealing with sep anx is *not* just to have
them be silent (though that's one of the ultimate goals, of course). If they
are silent, but still overly worried, it won't take much to bring all the
panic back into the picture. Slow and steady, but make sure you are *always*
working withint, and just at the edges of, their comfort zones. If they
start screaming immediately, then just work on walking back and forth to the
front door for 10 minutes, like a broken robot (who may, or may not be
leaking boiled chicken pieces :-). Do some thing odd, and then go back to
the routine of the broken robot. Do this until they have settled down. Make
it funny for yourself. Chuckle at yourself (why not?), make sure you keep
the tone light.

> It was never a big deal. But this time, they went from four hours
> to zero, and just because we changed units in our building. (The new
> place had more space, a bit, but we set them up in more or less the
> same way, so we cannot understand why this is so upsetting.)

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that you focussed on building *silent*
time, but may not have focissed enough on building *calmness* during the
transition.
The transition from you being home to you being GONE is the hardest part for
dog to deal with. Achieveing this so that the dogs are not only calm, but
*bored* is, imo, what you do before you even *start* building up time. At
that point, the time builds more easily.

Sep Anx is a tough thing to grapple with though. It may not even be true Sep
Anx, though. Its more likely that the two of them just ended up feeding off
of each other. Once one dog is a little bit upset, that can upset the other
dog, who will increase the upset in the first dog....etc.

> The vet is talking about combining the Clomicalm with Xanax.

I wouldn't go there quite yet.

> Does
> anyone have any other ideas? Has anyone had a similar experience? I
> am desperate to train these dogs, but we are out of patience and money.

Are you in the city? Do you mind if I ask who you've worked with so far
(just so I have a rough idea of who's methods you've already used)?

Tara
 >> Stay informed about: separation anxiety treatment -- relapses 

Hi Tara,
Thanks for your reply--

TaraG wrote:

> when it comes to separation issues, while it *is* important to build up
> slowly, the *most* important thing to work on is the first 15 minutes. I'd
> rather have a client leave 10 times for 15 minutes (don't do this, its just
> an exaggerated example), than leave once for 4 hours.

Actually, maybe my message wasn't clear enough (I was trying not to
make it too long. We did do this, repeat the same amount of time--over
and over. As I said, we progressed from 30 seconds to 4 hours total
leaving time, but that was over 6 months, really spread out, and we did
not always increase the times, we also repeated them and mixed them up.

> Actually, if I could have you do anything, I would have you pretend to
> leave, and at the point they start showing ANY sign of stress (which may be
> just when you put your coat on), *back up*, and just go through the
> preceeding motions, and that motion dozens of times until they stop caring.

We initially did this too. We would pretend to leave and then come
back and then repeat it again later. (We would also put our shoes on,
get our jackets on, pick up and jangle our keys, and then sit on the
sofa. But now I see I could do a lot more of this, now, before
worrying about 30 seconds or a minute.

> The point of slow building when dealing with sep anx is *not* just to have
> them be silent (though that's one of the ultimate goals, of course). If they
> are silent, but still overly worried, it won't take much to bring all the
> panic back into the picture. Slow and steady, but make sure you are *always*
> working withint, and just at the edges of, their comfort zones. If they
> start screaming immediately, then just work on walking back and forth to the
> front door for 10 minutes, like a broken robot (who may, or may not be
> leaking boiled chicken pieces :-). Do some thing odd, and then go back to
> the routine of the broken robot. Do this until they have settled down. Make
> it funny for yourself. Chuckle at yourself (why not?), make sure you keep
> the tone light.
>

Great!

> I don't know for sure, but I suspect that you focussed on building *silent*
> time, but may not have focissed enough on building *calmness* during the
> transition.
> The transition from you being home to you being GONE is the hardest part for
> dog to deal with. Achieveing this so that the dogs are not only calm, but
> *bored* is, imo, what you do before you even *start* building up time. At
> that point, the time builds more easily.

When they were doing well--which was for most of those 6 months--almost
all the time--they were calm. We knew calm was important, so we would
send them to their beds, ignore them, and leave when they were ignoring
us (sleeping or really looking comfortable and not paying attention to
us). On the other hand, once we returned, sometimes they were more
excited when we came home than others, but we always waited until they
were calm before leaving.

>
> Sep Anx is a tough thing to grapple with though. It may not even be true Sep
> Anx, though. Its more likely that the two of them just ended up feeding off
> of each other. Once one dog is a little bit upset, that can upset the other
> dog, who will increase the upset in the first dog....etc.
>

The little dog was a velcro dog, and the slightly older, larger one
seems to have been a little that way and to have grown more like the
other once we got the little guy. But both have always exhibited alarm
when being separated from us. If I am with my partner outside our
door, and he runs in to get something, they exhibit signs of panic.

I had to train the small dog not to follow me everywhere and he has
gotten better, though he still wants to know where I am most of the
time. Actually, while training them with the "leaving the house"
exercises, and with the greater distance we imposed on them while
sitting, sleeping, etc., he got much better about not being next to me
or in the same room at home. But I do think it is SA. The little one
also used to urinate and/or defecate when being left (this is before
the training). In time, he stopped. That was obviously another sign
of anxiety. The larger dog used to chew things and empty the garbage
can when left. (I think that was partly SA and partly just because he
found those activities delightful and no one was there to stop him.)


> Are you in the city? Do you mind if I ask who you've worked with so far
> (just so I have a rough idea of who's methods you've already used)?
>

I am in NYC. I have not had a trainer. I know that would be
recommended, but honestly, we are on a limited budget and have had to
expend a lot of money in day care (when we cannot leave them and have
to work--I work p/t) and also in the meds which did seem to help the
training, and I am not sure we can afford one. I have picked up a lot
of information reading online, as well as in articles, and from our
vet. I appreciate all of your advice!

Many thanks!
Molly
 >> Stay informed about: separation anxiety treatment -- relapses 

ps I somehow have two accounts here. I did not realize that--but now I
see this must be confusing. I'm the same person as mollybloom7!
 >> Stay informed about: separation anxiety treatment -- relapses 

molly wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have two dogs with persistent separation anxiety. They always had a
> mild case of it (some whining for a few seconds after we left them).
> Then one day after we had them for years, they got worse--we heard from
> neighbors that they were howling and crying off and on through the day.
> (They were only left alone for 5 hours a day, by the way.)
>
> We saw a vet who put them on Clomicalm, and at the same time, started
> desensitization training. We ignored them for 15 minutes before
> leaving, and 15 minutes after coming home, and we went out, gradually
> increasing the time we left them from 30 seconds to a minute to two
> minutes (doubling it more or less) until we got to 4 hours. The whole
> time we were doing this, we also changed other behaviors--we stopped
> letting them sleep in our bed, stopped letting them sit on furniture
> with us (though we made sure they got lots of attention and
> cuddles--when they were behaving well).
>
> There were some setbacks--times when they would fuss in the middle of
> the time they were left. (We taped them with a tape recorder so we
> would know if they fussed.) But they more or less gradually increased
> the amount of time they were content. In months we went from 30
> seconds to 4 hours. And we stayed at that point for weeks. We did not
> want to increase the time left alone too repidly, and so far that had
> worked well. (When we had to leave them for longer, we would put them
> in doggy day care. It did not help the problem--doggy daycare was
> still a form of separation--but kept us from being evicted.)
>
> Then after about 6 months of this training and when we could leave them
> for four hours with no problems, we moved to another apt. in our
> building, and overnight, the dogs relapsed. We were acting the same,
> the meds were the same, but the dogs could not be left for a minute
> without starting to cry and howl. We tried a few more times, but they
> just seemed to have relapsed--and, in fact. to have gotten worse than
> when we started.
>
> There had previously been tiny relapses. For example, if one of us was
> home for several days (i.e. they were not left alone at any time during
> the day) then they might fuss a little the next time we went out. So
> we'd cut back the time (say from one hour to 1/2 hour) and work it back
> up. It was never a big deal. But this time, they went from four hours
> to zero, and just because we changed units in our building. (The new
> place had more space, a bit, but we set them up in more or less the
> same way, so we cannot understand why this is so upsetting.)
>
> The vet is talking about combining the Clomicalm with Xanax. Does
> anyone have any other ideas? Has anyone had a similar experience? I
> am desperate to train these dogs, but we are out of patience and money.
>
> Help!
>
> Molly


wait before you medicate your digs you should first try leaving them
with television or music on so that they can hear something and not be
bored also this is what I do I leave treats hidden like behind the
couch and entertainment center so they can have something to do leave
toys available and this should work.
 >> Stay informed about: separation anxiety treatment -- relapses