over protective dog

Peter wrote:

> This is just one more source of information. It would be negligent for me to
> ignore any source of info available.

On the contrary, knowing which types of information or which sources
to disregard is an important skill.

> Why do you assume this is my only course of action?

Because I have no reason to believe otherwise. You, of course, are
free to enlighten me.

> I don't believe it to be a genetic condition. I believe it is a responsive
> behavior based on enviromental conditions that have changed.

Stress can do funny things, one of which is to bring out the best or
worst in a dog's temperament. But, even if you think there may be
an environmental cause for the dog's hinky behavior, the responsible
thing to do is not pass on those genes. Danes are not my breed, but
I'm pretty familiar with them. It seems to me that a Dane that
falls apart under stress is *not* a dog whose genes should be passed
on. Your dog is unstable, period.

And, again FWIW, I would not have bred my dog even if I'd suspected
that her poor temperament *might* be due to an environmental cause.
And, in fact, there was plenty of reason to suspect that it could
have been influenced by how she was handled in her first home. But
even so, and even if she'd cleared every health test for her breed,
I would not have bred her, because I would not want to breed dogs
who would fall apart under stress.

> What I said was wary for a short time. I'd hardly classify that as fear
> aggression issues.

Clearly, but perhaps an owner is not the most impartial judge of his
dog's flaws? That's one of the reasons why temperament tests are
important, especially if you are planning to breed the dog.

> What do you see as the appropriate Dane temprement? Danes
> and Labs are 2 breeds that I've had the pleasure to get to know. I found
> them to be very similar in temperament. Perhaps it was due to the fact that
> they lived to gether. My opinion is based on personal experience, not what
> I've read or been told.

Labs--well bred ones, at least--are much more intense and active
than Danes.

> I am not a proffesional breeder although I've tried to be a responsible one.

What have you done that makes you a responsible breeder?

> The puppies in this litter are intended to be family pets, not show dogs and
> will probably be all going to members of my family, I don't really care for
> conformation competition.

That hardly distinguishes you from the blue million backyard
breeders whose puppies are advertised daily in my local paper.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

In article <foev58$c8f$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Shelly <shelly.DeleteThis@cat-sidh.net> wrote:

>
> > The puppies in this litter are intended to be family pets, not show dogs
> > and
> > will probably be all going to members of my family, I don't really care for
> > conformation competition.
>
> That hardly distinguishes you from the blue million backyard
> breeders whose puppies are advertised daily in my local paper.

Yup. These puppies will go to "friends and family" and they undoubtedly
won't have a s/n contract or limited registration. And the cycle
continues........

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"Peter" <pd_hendrickson.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Sgwqj.3630$7d1.3444@news01.roc.ny...
> I am not a proffesional breeder although I've tried to be a responsible
> one.

And what have you done to distinguish yourself as a responsible breeder?

Did I read that the sire is owned by your vet? This doesn't count as a
responsible act in itself. If your vet didn't insist on health testing in
the entire line - past and present, not just immediate health issues - then
this is no one that I would ever consider buying a puppy from.

> The puppies in this litter are intended to be family pets, not show dogs
> and will probably be all going to members of my family, I don't really
> care for conformation competition.

You don't have to care for conformation competition to care about health
issues. Which is something that most responsible breeders - most of whom
also do conformation - do care about. What have you done to indicate that
you are concerned about long term health issues with your own dog's
genetics?

If the OFAs and CERFs have been done on the line and you just don't choose
to share them with the group, that's one thing. Just say "Breed specific
health testing has been done on the past three to five generations has been
done". Without that, you haven't even started to be a responsible breeder.

Judy
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

Judy wrote:

> Just say "Breed
> specific health testing has been done on the past three to five
> generations has been done".

Just sharing which tests are appropriate for Danes, and which ones
he's done would be a start.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

In article <fof0mi$ept$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Shelly <shelly RemoveThis @cat-sidh.net> wrote:

>
> Just sharing which tests are appropriate for Danes, and which ones
> he's done would be a start.

Why wouldn't he be willing to share the registered name and OFA record?
I mean, if there *IS* one after all.

Here you go Peter - it's this easy to do:

This is my dear Franklin. He was never bred, was neutered, and
unfortunately died in September at the age of only 7:

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1073106#animal

Here are the parents of my current puppy. She'll be OFA'd when she's 2,
although she will never be bred:

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1268987#animal

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1145762#animal


What do *you* have to hide?

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

Judy wrote:

> He can't share what he doesn't know and hasn't bothered to learn.

I know that, and you know that. Ahem.

> I
> admit I'm making an assumption there but in my experience if he's
> relying on his vet - who owns the stud - to advise him on what tests
> should be done, he's woefully uninformed.

I think that's pretty much guaranteed.

> Diddy listed - in another thread - the tests that the parent club says
> are necessary.

I just saw that. Good for them!

> Just a simple statement that they have been done would
> go a long way to convincing me that he has a single clue that breeding
> requires something more than working dog parts and the absence of any
> identified present disease.

I, for one, am not holding my breath. I'm blue enough as it is.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

Janet Boss wrote:

> Why wouldn't he be willing to share the registered name and OFA record?

Because it doesn't exist?

> I mean, if there *IS* one after all.

Bingo!

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

In article <Sgwqj.3630$7d1.3444@news01.roc.ny>,
Peter <pd_hendrickson.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am not a proffesional breeder although I've tried to be a responsible one.

I'm quite sure that I've ever seen anybody claim to be an
irresponsible breeder, and I'm pretty sure I've never seen
anybody say that they don't care about improving the breed.
It's not what you say, it's what you do. Anybody can claim
anything.

I look like:
http://www.nbc.com/American_Gladiators/bios/hellga.shtml
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore.TakeThisOut@panix.com

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"Peter" <pd_hendrickson RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message:

> I am not a proffesional breeder although I've tried to be a responsible
one.
> The puppies in this litter are intended to be family pets, not show dogs
and
> will probably be all going to members of my family,

So, your friends or family don't deserve to have healthy, even-tempered,
conformationally sound dogs that look and act like Danes, and live as long
and healthy a life as possible?

> I don't really care for
> conformation competition.

Then what is your goal in this breeding, beyond producing puppies? If you
have no interest in conformation, have you obtained independent evaluation
of your dog's conformation? Do you know how to evaluate conformation? How
do you know that the stud's conformation complements that of your bitch, and
you won't double up on the faults? This is a breed where breed type can be
easily lost within a couple of generations through careless breeding.

Suja
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"Shelly" <shelly DeleteThis @cat-sidh.net> wrote in message
news:foev58$c8f$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> Peter wrote:
>
>> This is just one more source of information. It would be negligent for me
>> to ignore any source of info available.
>
> On the contrary,

So you are saying I should ignore available info?

>knowing which types of information or which sources to disregard is an
>important skill.
>
How can I do that without first gathering the info?
>
>> Why do you assume this is my only course of action?
>
> Because I have no reason to believe otherwise. You, of course, are free
> to enlighten me.
>
I will enlighten by saying that I have read dozens of various web sites,
lengthy discussions with my vet and two local pro trainers, the local kennel
club and anyone else, including this forum that I thought might have useful
information. I might add as well, this is the only place that I have
encountered such small minded hostility and aggresion.
>>
>> I don't believe it to be a genetic condition. I believe it is a
>> responsive behavior based on enviromental conditions that have changed.
>
> Stress can do funny things, one of which is to bring out the best or worst
> in a dog's temperament. But, even if you think there may be an
> environmental cause for the dog's hinky behavior, the responsible thing to
> do is not pass on those genes. Danes are not my breed, but I'm pretty
> familiar with them. It seems to me that a Dane that falls apart under
> stress is *not* a dog whose genes should be passed on.

I appreciate your advice. You may be correct, I hope not. I think "falls
apart" is an innacurate and exagerated description of the condition we are
experiencing. She is in *all* other ways an exceptionally well behaved dog.
In the last week I have already seen a marked improvement in her attitude
and behavior through increased socialization. That fits our initial
diagnosis. I had hoped to possibly hear about some technique that might
hasten the process. Apparently time and patience are the only remedy
available.
The mating has already occured. What do you suggest I do? Find a doggie
abortion clinic or just take her out back and shoot her in the head?
>
>Your dog is unstable, period.
>
As you have never met her, you are patently unqualified to make such a
diagnosis. See? That's where that info filtering works. I will accept your
suggestion to disregard your opinion.
>
> And, again FWIW, I would not have bred my dog even if I'd suspected that
> her poor temperament *might* be due to an environmental cause.
I accept that that is your decision to make. I do not accept the definition
of her temperment as poor. I do not believe you are qualified to make that
determination without direct contact.
>
> And, in fact, there was plenty of reason to suspect that it could have
> been influenced by how she was handled in her first home. But even so,
> and even if she'd cleared every health test for her breed, I would not
> have bred her, because I would not want to breed dogs who would fall apart
> under stress.
>
Neither would I. She does not "fall apart" under stress.
>
>> What I said was wary for a short time. I'd hardly classify that as fear
>> aggression issues.
>
> Clearly, but perhaps an owner is not the most impartial judge of his dog's
> flaws? That's one of the reasons why temperament tests are important,
> especially if you are planning to breed the dog.
>
That is exactly why I came here, why I read dozens of various web sites, and
had lengthy discussions with my vet and two local pro trainers and the local
kennel club prior to this breeding. The vet and trainers had direct contact
with her.
>
>> What do you see as the appropriate Dane temprement? Danes and Labs are 2
>> breeds that I've had the pleasure to get to know. I found them to be very
>> similar in temperament. Perhaps it was due to the fact that they lived to
>> gether. My opinion is based on personal experience, not what I've read or
>> been told.
>
> Labs--well bred ones, at least--are much more intense and active than
> Danes.
>
I concurr. Danes have nowhere near the energy level of Labs. One of the
reasons I prefer Danes. I don't have the energy level of Labs either. But
energy level and temprement are two different things.
>
>> I am not a proffesional breeder although I've tried to be a responsible
>> one.
>
> What have you done that makes you a responsible breeder?
>
I believe I've already explained that. You may not agree. That's OK, you
don't have to.
>
>> The puppies in this litter are intended to be family pets, not show dogs
>> and will probably be all going to members of my family, I don't really
>> care for conformation competition.
>
> That hardly distinguishes you from the blue million backyard breeders
> whose puppies are advertised daily in my local paper.
>
One again, a matter of opinion. You have yours, I have mine.
Peter
> --
> Shelly
> http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
> http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

Peter wrote:

> So you are saying I should ignore available info?

I'm telling you that not all information is created equal, and that
being able to vet it critically is important.

> How can I do that without first gathering the info?

By researching the source. Or are you one of those people who
believes everything you read?

> I will enlighten by saying that I have read dozens of various web sites,
> lengthy discussions with my vet and two local pro trainers, the local kennel
> club and anyone else, including this forum that I thought might have useful
> information.

Are you being mentored by a responsible breeder?

> I might add as well, this is the only place that I have
> encountered such small minded hostility and aggresion.

You're getting attitude because you're giving it. That's certainly
your prerogative, and if your goal is to have a big ol' snarkfest,
then please do continue as you began.

> I appreciate your advice. You may be correct, I hope not.

I'd want more than "hope" in my corner if I were breeding my dog.

> I think "falls
> apart" is an innacurate and exagerated description of the condition we are
> experiencing. She is in *all* other ways an exceptionally well behaved dog.

So? So is my dog. And yet, she's temperamentally unsound and
should never be bred.

> In the last week I have already seen a marked improvement in her attitude
> and behavior through increased socialization. That fits our initial
> diagnosis.

That the problem existed in the first place is a huge warning flag.
How big? I don't know, but if it were me, I'd be relying on the
advice of a *good* behaviorist before I'd even consider breeding. I
would not breed the dog *then* go ask a bunch of strangers online
about her hinky temperament.

> I had hoped to possibly hear about some technique that might
> hasten the process. Apparently time and patience are the only remedy
> available.

Good luck with that.

> The mating has already occured. What do you suggest I do? Find a doggie
> abortion clinic or just take her out back and shoot her in the head?

Spay-abortions are not that uncommon. Any vet should be able to do
one, assuming there aren't any extenuating circumstances.

> As you have never met her, you are patently unqualified to make such a
> diagnosis. See? That's where that info filtering works. I will accept your
> suggestion to disregard your opinion.

Never mind, then.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"Janet Boss" <janet DeleteThis @bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
news:janet-456590.08124907022008@news.individual.net...
> In article <foev58$c8f$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
> Shelly <shelly DeleteThis @cat-sidh.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> > The puppies in this litter are intended to be family pets, not show
>> > dogs
>> > and
>> > will probably be all going to members of my family, I don't really care
>> > for
>> > conformation competition.
>>
>> That hardly distinguishes you from the blue million backyard
>> breeders whose puppies are advertised daily in my local paper.
>
> Yup. These puppies will go to "friends and family" and they undoubtedly
> won't have a s/n contract or limited registration. And the cycle
> continues........
>
Yet another argument from ignorance. Do you always make snap judgment based
on little or no information? To my thinking, that makes your opinions pretty
much worthless and I will treat them accordingly.
Peter
> --
> Janet Boss
> www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog 

"Judy" <doubleq.TakeThisOut@cableracer.com> wrote in message
news:610eq3F1t6ll4U1@mid.individual.net...
> "Peter" <pd_hendrickson.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Sgwqj.3630$7d1.3444@news01.roc.ny...
>> I am not a proffesional breeder although I've tried to be a responsible
>> one.
>
> And what have you done to distinguish yourself as a responsible breeder?
>
I've stated that in another post.
>
> Did I read that the sire is owned by your vet?

No.

> This doesn't count as a responsible act in itself. If your vet didn't
> insist on health testing in the entire line - past and present, not just
> immediate health issues - then this is no one that I would ever consider
> buying a puppy from.
>

Good advice, thanks. My pups will not be for sale.

>> The puppies in this litter are intended to be family pets, not show dogs
>> and will probably be all going to members of my family, I don't really
>> care for conformation competition.
>
> You don't have to care for conformation competition to care about health
> issues.

They are 2 different issues.

>Which is something that most responsible breeders - most of whom also do
>conformation - do care about. What have you done to indicate that you are
>concerned about long term health issues with your own dog's genetics?
>
Already answered.
>
> If the OFAs and CERFs have been done on the line and you just don't choose
> to share them with the group, that's one thing. Just say "Breed specific
> health testing has been done on the past three to five generations has
> been done".

I could, but I suspect that would simply generate another round of "oh yea,
PROVE IT!!!"
I do not repond submissively to such behavior.

>Without that, you haven't even started to be a responsible breeder.

Once again, very good advice, thank you.
Peter
>
> Judy
 >> Stay informed about: over protective dog