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External
Since: Feb 07, 2007
Posts: 1586
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(Msg. 136) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:23 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>pets>dogs>behavior (more info?)
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External
Since: Feb 07, 2008
Posts: 7
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(Msg. 137) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:34 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Peter <pd_hendrickson.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I have read the AKC guidelines, I am not qualified to judge dogs
>>> professionally.
>>
>> There are no "guidelines"; there is, however, such a thing as a
>> standard.
>
> symantics. pointless.
You believe that the meaning of words is pointless? Then it shouldn't matter
to you whether I say "Peter is ignorant" or "Peter is knowledgable"; after
all, the only difference between the words "ignorant" and "knowledgable" is
in what the two words mean.
>> Furthermore,
>> the Dane standard states of temperament "The Great Dane must be
>> spirited, courageous, always friendly and dependable, and never
>> timid or aggressive." By your own statements that has not been the
>> case of Gretchen. QED.
>>
> I believe the term I used was "wary".
Yes, that's the word you used. "Always friendly and dependable" does not
include "sometimes wary". Wary and timid are synonyms. Here, semantics
is unquestionably important.
>> If you want some help with pedigree research, feel free to contact
>> me directly - it's my side business, and I'm quite good at it. I'm
>> not a Dane person so can't tell you anything about the dogs themselves
>> in the last 4-5 generations of the pedigree (and you really DO need
>> someone who can help you with that) but could definitely assemble
>> for you some of the data you really need to know, at no charge in
>> this case.
>
> That's very generous thank you. I already have both dogs pedagrees going
> back 4 generations.
I think you misunderstood my offer, which I now reiterate. I wasn't
simply offering to acquire copies of the pedigrees for you, which is
easy to do; I am offering pedigree *research*, which is far more
complex and difficult. No knowledgable breeder would do a breeding
without a careful analysis of the pedigrees on both sides.
While it is too late now to undo this breeding, a good pedigree
analysis will definitely give you information that is useful even
at this point. This is what I am offering to you, in private,
without sharing the results here publically.
Continue to play coy if you like, but if you choose to remain blind
you will only be harming yourself, your dogs, your puppies, and their
future owners.
Dianne |
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Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 94
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(Msg. 138) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:34 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Dianne Schoenberg" <dms DeleteThis @sonic.net> wrote in message
news:47ab8084$0$36394$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Peter <pd_hendrickson DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Also as stated previously, I expect most or all of these
>> pups will go to family members who all know Gretchen and have years
>> (human
>> years, not dog years 8-) of experence with dogs, large and small. 5 have
>> already been spoken for, and as this is her 1st (and only) litter, I will
>> be
>> surprised if there are more than that.
>
> "You would be surprised"? Clearly you haven't done your homework.
> The average litter size for Danes is 8 pups, with up to 19 having
> occurred. The fact that will be her first litter has no bearing
> on litter size.
>
Well, I have. Apparently my sources differ from yours.
>
> Also, how many of the 4 family members that have said they want
> a puppy of hers have actually put deposits down?
As I've said, many times, these pupies are not for sale.
>Any experienced
> breeder can tell you that homes like that most often evaporate
> like the wind when puppies actually hit the ground.
>
> If you end up with a dozen or so 8-month-old Dane puppies turning
> your yard into mud and eating you out of house & home, you'll only
> have yourself to blame. (And yes, I do know people to whom that
> exact thing has happened.)
>
> Dianne
You may be right. Only time will tell.
Peter >> Stay informed about: over protective dog |
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External
Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 94
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(Msg. 139) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:34 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"bethgsd" <bethgsd.DeleteThis@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:UeOqj.19858$hF2.1332@trnddc02...
>
> "tiny dancer" <tinydancer357.DeleteThis@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:q0Iqj.68530$Mu4.51468@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "Suja" <spanaval.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:610vjjF1sofg8U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> "tiny dancer" <tinydancer357.DeleteThis@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message:
>>>
>>>> I am allowed to express my opinion. I've stated it here before. This
>>>> is
>>>> one of the most unfriendly groups of *dog people* I have EVER come
>>>> across
>>> in
>>>> my lifetime. Have you people never heard of the old 'honey vs.
>>>> vinegar'
>>>> adage?
>>>
>>> You really think that going 'Ooh, PUPPIES!' is a positive contribution
>>> to
>>> this thread?
>>>
>>> Suja
>>
>>
>> Like I said, are you suggesting the alternative? Abort the litter
>> immediately?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> If Peter hasn't done the health testing on both parents, doesn't have a
> good contract with a take back clause and if the bitch is as hinky as one
> of his posts has led me to believe, then yes. There is nothing wrong with
> spaying a pregnant bitch.
>
> Beth
>>>
Maybe so, but I won't do it.
Peter >> Stay informed about: over protective dog |
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Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 94
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(Msg. 140) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:34 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Janet Boss" <janet DeleteThis @bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
news:janet-2B4436.21354207022008@news.individual.net...
> In article <t3Pqj.3709$7d1.2822@news01.roc.ny>,
> "Peter" <pd_hendrickson DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've been lurkin usenet for many years and this group
>> definately has some of the rudest people I've yet to encounter.
>> Peter
>
> This group has one of the most dog knowledgeable cores that I have found
> on the internet, combined with true caring. People who are interested
> in both the short and long term well being of dogs. Individual dogs,
> dog breeds, dog activities, etc.
>
I'm glad to rear you had amore positive experience than I did.
> When someone floats in and pretty much says "here's what I'm doing and
> all of it is pretty squirrely/suspect/unverifiable", well, that poster
> tends to start using expletives, being defensive, insults the group,
> hangs with td, and leaves a very big impression that yes indeedy, they
> are not being a responsible dog owner.
>
Initially, all I did was ask for a little advice.
> There is a lot of experience here and most people are pretty easily
> found as legit with a quick Google search. Some of us have even met in
> person.
>
> There is certainly not a cabal, or 100% agreement on everything, but
> when it comes right down to it, there tends to be majority vote on some
> pretty important things. Responsible breeding practices are one of
> them.
>
No argument here.
Peter
> --
> Janet Boss
> www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com >> Stay informed about: over protective dog |
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External
Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 94
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(Msg. 141) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:34 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Suja" <spanaval DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6125u6F1t3lbtU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Peter" <pd_hendrickson DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message:
>
>> Yow that really is a worst case scenario.
>
> Ya think? The reality is that worst case scenerios happen. Bitches die
> in
> whelp. Bitches reject offspring. They sometimes make terrible mothers,
> leaving the breeder to take over the job. Pups are born all the time with
> terrible problems that limit the quality of life or lead to death. The
> responsible breeders do what they can to mitigate the risks, and don't get
> their backs up when someone asks them relevant questions about the health
> of
> the puppies they are responsible for. I am yet to find a responsible
> breeder react in the manner you've done. I have seen dozens of people
> that
> randomly bred their dogs react in exactly this manner.
>
>> Do you always assume the worst?
>
> Maybe I have my reasons. My female Dane has severe bilateral CHD,
> diagnosed
> at age 1. She had juvenile arthritis at that age, due to her poor joint
> conditions. She has very severe SA, and she was born with it. It caused
> her to lose her first home. But, she's one of the lucky ones because she
> found someone willing and able to meet her needs. I'm lucky that she
> isn't
> severely affected in her mobility. My friend has a GSD that has even
> worse
> hips, and at age 9 came close to having to be put down as a result. He
> has
> only made it thus far because his people are extraordinarily diligent, and
> he gets acupuncture, adequan shots, aquatherapy, electrostimulation ...
> the
> list is quite long, what it takes to keep him relatively pain free.
>
> You frequently talk about rescues. Have you actually been involved in
> rescue beyond adopting dogs?
Well, I've rescued some dogs. Some I've kept, some I've found homes for.
What more did you have in mind?
>Trust me, you will see every day what poorly
> thought out breeding does to dogs. You will see perfectly good dogs put
> down because there is no more room at the inn. Perhaps if you had been
> more
> involved, you wouldn't be as cavalier about breeding your bitch.
>
I understand why I've given that impresion. I really have tried to be
responible about this breeding. I'm sorry I did not reach your standards.
>
>> seems a fairly common trait here. I have actually gleened some useful
>> info
>> here, some, not much. I did receive a lot of insults rants and diatribes
>> though
>
> You see rants and diatribes when the message isn't what you want to hear.
>
At times I'm sure that's true, but not always.
>> Meanwhile, I'm still excited about the
>> prospective puppies and am hoping for the best.
>
> You can hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst.
Any advice you may choose to provide will be greatly appreciated.
>What do you do if
> your bitch can't whelp normally? She doesn't want to accept the pups?
> Doesn't know how to properly care for the pups?
While this is my first attempt at purposful breeding, it is not the first
time I've delt with a pregnant dog. And as I've said my wife is a medical
professional with years of experience with both humans and animals. But in
the event that something occurs that we are unable to handle, I'll ask for
specific advice here (but not only here).
>Can you take weeks off and
> feed the pups round the clock, every two hours, stimulate them so they can
> eliminate? Do you have the time, energy and knowledge to properly
> socialize
> them so they turn out as well tempered and well adjusted as possible?
>
Time is my greatest commodity right now. And yes, I have raised pupies
before.
>> Regardles of how this turns
>> out, I will provide updates here even if you are proven right on all
> counts.
>
> I would be happy if everything turned out fine, and the pups and mom made
> it
> with no problems, and all went on to have long and uneventful lives. This
> is not about being proven right.
>
> Suja
>
Thanks for the positive response. As I said, I will let you know either way.
Peter >> Stay informed about: over protective dog |
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Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 94
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(Msg. 142) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:34 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Shelly" <scouvrette RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fohobb$f3l$4@registered.motzarella.org...
> diddy <none> wrote in news:Xns9A3DDCAEDBD59diddydiddynet@
> 216.196.97.142:
>
>> and yes, I can laugh at myself and poke
>> pointy sticks at my own flaws
>
> You doing so is very different from others doing it to you.
>
So you can dish it out but you can't take it? Geez, lighten' up a little
lady. It's just usenet.
Peter
> --
> Shelly
> http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
> http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther) >> Stay informed about: over protective dog |
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External
Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 94
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(Msg. 143) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:34 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"filly" <johnhenry.TakeThisOut@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:8CQqj.6882$Qj3.1372@trndny07...
>
> "Peter" <pd_hendrickson.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:UJPqj.3712$7d1.378@news01.roc.ny...
> (snip)
>> You couldn't be more wrong. Although I must admit there is some ego
>> involved. I felt attacked, I felt my dog was attacked. That is what I
>> responded to. I have rescued several dogs, some of them being Danes. I
>> got my first full Dane through a Dane rescue org. Some people here have
>> contributed useful info that I will take to heart. Some people here have
>> simply berated and castigated. That's an odd way to go about improving
>> dog training, behavior or breeding.
>> Peter
>>
> After losing count of the dogs some have held as their lives were taken
> because there is no room at the inn, the kid gloves tend to come off and
> the sugar coating dissolves. Good dogs, puppies, oldsters, through no
> fault of their own die every damn day, hundreds of them.
We had to have one dog put down for medical reason. It broke my heart to
do.
>What do they have in common?
> Karla
You tell me.
Peter >> Stay informed about: over protective dog |
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External
Since: Apr 05, 2007
Posts: 906
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(Msg. 144) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:34 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Peter" <pd_hendrickson.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message:
> Well, I've rescued some dogs. Some I've kept, some I've found homes for.
> What more did you have in mind?
Try being part of an organized rescue. There are always more dogs out there
than are homes. You will see first hand, on a day-in and day-out basis what
sort of problems the breed has due to careless breeding, and how it is the
dogs that suffer as a result.
> I understand why I've given that impresion. I really have tried to be
> responible about this breeding. I'm sorry I did not reach your standards.
*sigh* It isn't about my standards. Jo has said it better than I can, and
more kindly than I would, so I would just link this here:
http://www.danemist.com/ABCs/articles.html#The%20Real%20Breeder (There is a
ton of Dane specific information there, if you're interested)
> Any advice you may choose to provide will be greatly appreciated.
I am not a breeder. Others here are far more experienced in giving you such
advice than I am. You need to be able to recognize when your bitch or
puppies are in trouble. You may need to have more hands in case you do end
up hand-raising puppies (Imagine your bitch having a litter of 8 or 10, and
you having to feed them, help them eliminate and clean them every two hours,
round the clock) Be prepared for making tough decisions (if it came right
down to it, would you pick your bitch or the puppies?). For instance, ask
yourself what you would do if you find yourself in these situations:
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder3.html
And please take Dianne up on her offer. You may not know her from Adam, but
she knows what she's doing.
Suja >> Stay informed about: over protective dog |
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External
Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 94
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(Msg. 145) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:03 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Shelly" <scouvrette RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fohoje$f3l$8@registered.motzarella.org...
> "Peter" <pd_hendrickson RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in news:bOPqj.3713$7d1.890
> @news01.roc.ny:
>
>> Well I didn't really ask for any breeding advice in the first
>> place.
>
> You asked for advice on what to do about your fear aggressive dog.
> Number one on the "what to do" list is "do not breed her."
>
> --
> Shelly
> http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
> http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
While you may be very knowledgeable about dogs and dog breeding, I have yet
to find any of your comments in any way positive or useful. Keep trying
though.
Peter >> Stay informed about: over protective dog |
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External
Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 94
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(Msg. 146) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:03 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Shelly" <scouvrette DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fohohv$f3l$7@registered.motzarella.org...
> "Peter" <pd_hendrickson DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:qPPqj.3714$7d1.2671@news01.roc.ny:
>
>> Yea, sometimes I think faster than I type and I seldom take time
>> for the speel checker 8-)
>
> A spell checker would not have helped you.
>
> --
> Shelly
> http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
> http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
And still nothing positive to offer. Oh well
Peter >> Stay informed about: over protective dog |
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External
Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 94
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(Msg. 147) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:03 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Shelly" <scouvrette DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:foholu$f3l$9@registered.motzarella.org...
> "Peter" <pd_hendrickson DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in news:laQqj.3720
> $7d1.2088@news01.roc.ny:
>
>> symantics
>
> Oye vey!
>
> --
> Shelly
> http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
> http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
Yea, my spelik r atroshush. You *still* have nothing positive to offer, just
snide remarks. Come on I know you can do better than that, positive or
negative. Keep trying, you'll get better at this eventually.
Peter >> Stay informed about: over protective dog |
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External
Since: Feb 07, 2007
Posts: 1586
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(Msg. 148) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:03 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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External
Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 94
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(Msg. 149) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:03 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Dianne Schoenberg" <dms DeleteThis @sonic.net> wrote in message
news:47ac7fe5$0$36359$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Peter <pd_hendrickson DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have read the AKC guidelines, I am not qualified to judge dogs
>>>> professionally.
>>>
>>> There are no "guidelines"; there is, however, such a thing as a
>>> standard.
>>
>> symantics. pointless.
>
> You believe that the meaning of words is pointless? Then it shouldn't
> matter
> to you whether I say "Peter is ignorant" or "Peter is knowledgable"; after
> all, the only difference between the words "ignorant" and "knowledgable"
> is
> in what the two words mean.
>
Really no need to nitpick. In this context guidelines & standards are
synonyms
(http://dico.isc.cnrs.fr/dico/en/search?b=1&r=guideline&send=Look+it+up)
while knowledgable and ignorant are polar opposites.
>
>>> Furthermore,
>>> the Dane standard states of temperament "The Great Dane must be
>>> spirited, courageous, always friendly and dependable, and never
>>> timid or aggressive." By your own statements that has not been the
>>> case of Gretchen. QED.
>>>
>> I believe the term I used was "wary".
>
> Yes, that's the word you used. "Always friendly and dependable" does not
> include "sometimes wary". Wary and timid are synonyms. Here, semantics
> is unquestionably important.
>
Can't argue that. The behavior issue I first posted about has diminished on
a daily basis and has been non existent for the last few days. Hopefully it
will stay that way.
>
>>> If you want some help with pedigree research, feel free to contact
>>> me directly - it's my side business, and I'm quite good at it. I'm
>>> not a Dane person so can't tell you anything about the dogs themselves
>>> in the last 4-5 generations of the pedigree (and you really DO need
>>> someone who can help you with that) but could definitely assemble
>>> for you some of the data you really need to know, at no charge in
>>> this case.
>>
>> That's very generous thank you. I already have both dogs pedagrees going
>> back 4 generations.
>
> I think you misunderstood my offer, which I now reiterate. I wasn't
> simply offering to acquire copies of the pedigrees for you, which is
> easy to do; I am offering pedigree *research*, which is far more
> complex and difficult. No knowledgable breeder would do a breeding
> without a careful analysis of the pedigrees on both sides.
>
> While it is too late now to undo this breeding, a good pedigree
> analysis will definitely give you information that is useful even
> at this point. This is what I am offering to you, in private,
> without sharing the results here publically.
>
> Continue to play coy if you like, but if you choose to remain blind
> you will only be harming yourself, your dogs, your puppies, and their
> future owners.
>
> Dianne
OK, here's my address pd_hendrickson DeleteThis @hotmail.com , how shall we start?
Thanks again for you kind offer of assitance.
Peter >> Stay informed about: over protective dog |
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External
Since: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 94
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(Msg. 150) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:03 pm
Post subject: Re: over protective dog [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Shelly" <scouvrette.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fohod3$f3l$5@registered.motzarella.org...
> "Peter" <pd_hendrickson.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in news:8dQqj.3624$Sa1.13
> @news02.roc.ny:
>
>> I hate to say it but your assement seems spot on from my
>> perspective.
>
> You don't hate to say it. I think there's sufficient evidence to
> show that you actually enjoy saying it.
>
> --
> Shelly
> http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
> http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
Still nothing positive to offer.
Peter >> Stay informed about: over protective dog |
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