And a little More on self marginalization / self alienation

usual suspect wrote:
> Sam wrote:
>
<snip>
>>> It emerges that Lesley - "lilweed", "lotus", "pearl" - knowingly
>>> married a skinhead, an ex-convict even; he was convicted of a violent
>>> felony, and served time in prison. Skinheads are classically
>>> marginalized and alienated. They may not realize they are increasing
>>> their marginalization and alienation by adopting a skinhead
>>> lifestyle, but it's clear that they are.
>>
>>
>> Skinhead, punk, hippy, goth, it doesn't matter buddy,
>
>
> Yes, it does matter. Identification with social outcasts and pariahs is
> unhealthy.

Is it more unhealthy to identify with a group, even if it's a minority,
or continue in a futile attempt for acceptance among the mainstream who
refuse to accept you?

> In extreme cases, it is symptomatic of deeper personal
> issues.

The same can be said of seeking popularity and acceptance by the mainstream.

<snip>

>> we all go through phases in life, it's called growing up.

> In many instances, those aren't phases. They're attempts to avoid
> responsibility and maturity. Growing up is avoiding alternative
> lifestyles, not partaking in them.

Growing up is about accepting who you are -- regardless of what others
think.
 >> Stay informed about: And a little More on self marginalization / self alienation 

Ivy Winter wrote:
>>>> It emerges that Lesley - "lilweed", "lotus", "pearl" - knowingly
>>>> married a skinhead, an ex-convict even; he was convicted of a
>>>> violent felony, and served time in prison. Skinheads are
>>>> classically marginalized and alienated. They may not realize they
>>>> are increasing their marginalization and alienation by adopting a
>>>> skinhead lifestyle, but it's clear that they are.
>>>
>>> Skinhead, punk, hippy, goth, it doesn't matter buddy,
>>
>> Yes, it does matter. Identification with social outcasts and pariahs
>> is unhealthy.
>
> Is it more unhealthy to identify with a group, even if it's a minority,

Identification itself isn't so much the issue as the group with whom one
is identifying. Unhealthy associations are made by unhealthy individuals.

> or continue in a futile attempt for acceptance among the mainstream who
> refuse to accept you?

The mainstream doesn't "refuse to accept" anyone. Individuals, though,
often reject the mainstream. Veganism, the issue at hand, is a
marginalized pseudo-political quasi-religion. The mainstream doesn't say
to vegans, "We reject your silly diet and notions about animal rights,
so go away;" indeed, many restaurants and individuals will go out of
their way to make meatless and dairy-free foods to placate the peculiar
sensitivities of vegans. It's the vegans who attempt to change, annoy,
pester, and shun the mainstream even when the mainstream attempts to
accomodate them. THAT, Ivy, is an unhealthy symptom.

>> In extreme cases, it is symptomatic of deeper personal issues.
>
> The same can be said of seeking popularity and acceptance by the
> mainstream.

Seeking popularity and acceptance for their own sakes is unhealthy,
true. Be a little more fair with me: I said "in extreme cases."

> <snip>
>>> we all go through phases in life, it's called growing up.
>
>> In many instances, those aren't phases. They're attempts to avoid
>> responsibility and maturity. Growing up is avoiding alternative
>> lifestyles, not partaking in them.
>
> Growing up is about accepting who you are -- regardless of what others
> think.

Growing up involves accepting responsibility and acting with a sense of
maturity. Alternative lifestyles, in general, are attempts to avoid both.
 >> Stay informed about: And a little More on self marginalization / self alienation 

Ivy Winter wrote:

> usual suspect wrote:
>
>> Sam wrote:
>>
> <snip>
>
>>>> It emerges that Lesley - "lilweed", "lotus", "pearl" - knowingly
>>>> married a skinhead, an ex-convict even; he was convicted of a
>>>> violent felony, and served time in prison. Skinheads are
>>>> classically marginalized and alienated. They may not realize they
>>>> are increasing their marginalization and alienation by adopting a
>>>> skinhead lifestyle, but it's clear that they are.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Skinhead, punk, hippy, goth, it doesn't matter buddy,
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, it does matter. Identification with social outcasts and pariahs
>> is unhealthy.
>
>
> Is it more unhealthy to identify with a group, even if it's a minority,
> or continue in a futile attempt for acceptance among the mainstream who
> refuse to accept you?

You're making several errors.

First, "the mainstream" is not the monolith that you
seem to mean. "It" does not look at, and reject,
deviants based on some capricious standards. In fact,
just the opposite: the mainstream is a mix of wildly
varying individuals, and includes all manner of tastes
and tendencies. The mainstream is far more diverse and
accepting of differences than the deviants are able to
acknowledge.

Next, you're getting the cart before the horse. "The
mainstream" do not refuse to accept people out of some
capricious dislike for individuals. People outside the
mainstream often place themselves there out of a
willful deviance. If the mainstream refuse to accept
them, it is based on a *reaction* to that deviance.
Commonly, people within the mainstream view those on
the outside as *deliberately* deviant to some extent,
and there is ample evidence to support the view.

Next, you're committing a false bifurcation fallacy.
It is incorrect to see the choice as limited to the two
options you have presented: try for acceptance "as is"
with the mainstream, OR embrace some extremely
marginalized, and often sociopathic, subculture. There
is, at least, a third option: critically re-examine
one's beliefs and propensities in an honest effort to
understand why one feels so alienated in the first place.

People who embrace something as extreme as "veganism"
felt far outside the mainstream *before* embracing it.
That isn't mental pathology itself, but it is
indicative of a state that is likely to cause
considerable mental and emotional distress. The
embrace of something as extreme and fringe as
"veganism", however, INCREASES the alienation and
marginalization. They have to know that it will, too.
Increasing the alienation already felt by
deliberately choosing something they KNOW will increase
it is mental illness.

>
>> In extreme cases, it is symptomatic of deeper personal issues.
>
>
> The same can be said of seeking popularity and acceptance by the
> mainstream.

Your view of the mainstream is simplistic and wrong.

>
> <snip>
>
>>> we all go through phases in life, it's called growing up.
>
>
>> In many instances, those aren't phases. They're attempts to avoid
>> responsibility and maturity. Growing up is avoiding alternative
>> lifestyles, not partaking in them.
>
>
> Growing up is about accepting who you are -- regardless of what others
> think.

Growing up is several things. It is realizing that
there is no monolithic mainstream; it is realizing that
if you feel alienated, it is more than likely something
in you, not in "them"; it is realizing, if you're
mentally and emotionally secure, that you can keep your
independence while still fitting in enough to succeed.
 >> Stay informed about: And a little More on self marginalization / self alienation