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Since: Dec 21, 2007 Posts: 8
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:44 am
Post subject: Ever hear of William Kohler? Archived from groups: rec>pets>dogs>breeds (more info?)
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Hey, y'all,
There was a professional dog trainer in Hollywood named William Kohler
who wrote several dog training books. He wrote one,
The Kohler Method of Dog Training, wherein he strongly disagrees with
the people who believe that positive reinforcement alone will solve
all dog misbehaviors, and outlines his own training program, which, he
said, would in itself end most doggie misbehavior, and the back of the
book is taken up with how to correct REALLy tough problems likely to
result in a dead dog, like car chasing, biting people, attacking
livestock, revenge piddling and so on. I used his approach myself, on
several different dogs I owned over a long period, and it WORKED, on
every level. The dogs stopped misbehaving, and were transformed into
calm, happy guys who were a joy to take anywhere, because I could
control them just by voice.
Dogs are confused and miserable when they are treated as if they were
the owners' best/only friends ,or spoiled children,and are robbed of
their dignity and denied the right to be DOGS. They need a leader to
follow, not a patsy who coos baby talk and showers them with treats
and pushes then in a stroller or carries them everywhere, and they
CERTAINLY don't need jewelry,nail polish, hair ribbons, booties or
clothing! They need to be corrected when they're bad, and shown
affection and kindness when they are behaving.
Thus saith Cindy. I await your kind response. >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Jan 30, 2007 Posts: 1641
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:14 am
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article
<dece0507-aa1c-4377-ae44-b035c064ba06 DeleteThis @t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
"GOLLEEE@gmail.com" <GOLLEEE DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There was a professional dog trainer in Hollywood named William Kohler
> who wrote several dog training books.
No. William KOEHLER was a dog trainer. Kohler makes toilets.
> He wrote one,
> The Kohler Method of Dog Training, wherein he strongly disagrees with
> the people who believe that positive reinforcement alone will solve
> all dog misbehaviors, and outlines his own training program, which, he
> said, would in itself end most doggie misbehavior, and the back of the
> book is taken up with how to correct REALLy tough problems likely to
> result in a dead dog, like car chasing, biting people, attacking
> livestock, revenge piddling and so on. I used his approach myself, on
> several different dogs I owned over a long period, and it WORKED, on
> every level. The dogs stopped misbehaving, and were transformed into
> calm, happy guys who were a joy to take anywhere, because I could
> control them just by voice.
Agreed. Many people only focus on the really tough problem section
though, and I disagree with much of what is written there, but for many
people the only other answer is euthanasia, which is not ideal either.
Commitment to a program is the biggest problem dog owners have though,
and I don't think that extreme measures are usually warranted.
> Dogs are confused and miserable when they are treated as if they were
> the owners' best/only friends ,or spoiled children,and are robbed of
> their dignity and denied the right to be DOGS. They need a leader to
> follow, not a patsy who coos baby talk and showers them with treats
> and pushes then in a stroller or carries them everywhere, and they
> CERTAINLY don't need jewelry,nail polish, hair ribbons, booties or
> clothing!
I'll disagree on the booties or clothing, For some dogs, in some
environments, booties and clothing can be important protection. Hair
ribbons? Just fancier ways than a plain old clip or rubber band to keep
hair out of the face for some breeds. Pretty harmless.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Sep 15, 2007 Posts: 190
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:44 am
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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<GOLLEEE.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dece0507-aa1c-4377-ae44-b035c064ba06@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> Hey, y'all,
> There was a professional dog trainer in Hollywood named William Kohler
Not quite. His name was Koehler. And WAS is the operative term; the book
you reference is 45 years old.
> and the back of the
> book is taken up with how to correct REALLy tough problems likely to
> result in a dead dog, like car chasing, biting people, attacking
> livestock, revenge piddling and so on.
Ah, yes. The part where he tells people to do things like hold their dogs'
heads under water, and beat them with leather belts.
As a side note, I do not believe that "revenge piddling" is something that
dogs do.
>. The dogs stopped misbehaving, and were transformed into
> calm, happy guys who were a joy to take anywhere, because I could
> control them just by voice.
I have dogs like that, too - dogs who were adopted from shelters, after
being discarded by their first owners for behavioural problems, and whom I
not only rehabbed into good everyday canine citizens, but have taken to
high-level titles in agility.
And it was done primarily with positive reinforcement, not by old-fashioned
harsh "dominance"-based training; in fact, the majority of it was done
off-leash.
Using positive reinforcement does NOT equate to lack of control or respect
from dogs, or lack of calm authority on the part of the handler.
> They need to be corrected when they're bad,
Dogs need to be told when behaviour is unwanted or unacceptable, yes. But
that doesn't equate to dogs being deliberately "bad", and "correction"
doesn't have to be force based, or even physical. I am not opposed to
physical correction, but it should not be one's primary means of
communication.
And dogs EQUALLY need to be guided to the wanted behaviour, and reinforced
for it.
Trying to train a dog - or teach any individual of any species - is more
effective when balanced methods are used, rather than relying on primarily
negative communication. Most effective modern trainers work at about 80-90%
reward, 20-10% correction. And again, "correction" does not have to equate
to collar pops, beating with belts, etc - it can be as low key as the
trainer saying "Anh" quietly, followed by praise when the dog changes or
stops the unwanted action.
>and shown affection and kindness when they are behaving.
Dogs should be shown affection and kindness at all times. And they will
never learn to "behave" if all you do is "correct" them when they're "being
bad".
Koehler was right about dogs needing consistency and leadership, but his
methods as outlined in the book you reference are outdated, unbalanced, and
sometimes cases criminally abusive. He's still worth reading, but I would
never recommend his book as a primary reference for how to train a dog, and
nor without strong warnings. >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Jan 29, 2005 Posts: 1164
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:44 am
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"sionnach" <rhyfelwr59.DeleteThis@verizon.net> spoke these words of wisdom in
news:5t4pnjF1brapqU1@mid.individual.net:
>
> <GOLLEEE.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:dece0507-aa1c-4377-ae44-b035c064ba06@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>> Hey, y'all,
>> There was a professional dog trainer in Hollywood named William Kohler
>
> Not quite. His name was Koehler. And WAS is the operative term; the
> book
> you reference is 45 years old.
Yes and Koehler is now with the dear departed.
>
>> and the back of the
>> book is taken up with how to correct REALLy tough problems likely to
>> result in a dead dog, like car chasing, biting people, attacking
>> livestock, revenge piddling and so on.
>
> Ah, yes. The part where he tells people to do things like hold their
> dogs'
> heads under water, and beat them with leather belts.
>
> As a side note, I do not believe that "revenge piddling" is something
> that dogs do.
>
Koehler also trained dogs for the military. He had great dog insight. I
don't agree with all the methods, but if I had a really tough nut to crack
where nothing else worked, I'd give them a try. But really, if a dog is
that difficult, I'd probably save a dog from the pound instead that was
actually a more rehomable dog.
> > Koehler was right about dogs needing consistency and leadership, but
his
> methods as outlined in the book you reference are outdated, unbalanced,
> and sometimes cases criminally abusive. He's still worth reading, but I
> would never recommend his book as a primary reference for how to train a
> dog, and nor without strong warnings.
Exactly
If a dog was that bad a case, the person needs to be contacting a
professional trainer. I do think it's a must read for professional trainers
who are interested in theory. >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Jan 29, 2005 Posts: 1164
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:44 am
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Janet Boss <janet.TakeThisOut@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> spoke these words of wisdom in
news:janet-EED674.11095022122007@news.individual.net:
>
> Yes, gearing up for the annoying relatives saying stupid things........
> although Marcie is quite an angel (did I mention that I got my nose
> bitten this morning?).
>
> --
A puppy bite! She kissed you!
Now she can join the ranks of Mr Snappy-grabby >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Jan 30, 2007 Posts: 1641
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:09 am
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <5t4pnjF1brapqU1 RemoveThis @mid.individual.net>,
"sionnach" <rhyfelwr59 RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Dogs need to be told when behaviour is unwanted or unacceptable, yes. But
> that doesn't equate to dogs being deliberately "bad", and "correction"
> doesn't have to be force based, or even physical. I am not opposed to
> physical correction, but it should not be one's primary means of
> communication.
How true.
Something that REALLY bugs me is when people say "s/he's bad",
especially with a new puppy. How does a puppy (any more than a baby)
KNOW what IS bad? They have to try things, learn from them, be
instructed (or corrected, but again, as you say, just a "sorry - bad
choice").
Even with an adult dog, when presented with a new situation, how do they
know good from bad except as we guide and instruct them?
Yes, gearing up for the annoying relatives saying stupid things........
although Marcie is quite an angel (did I mention that I got my nose
bitten this morning?).
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Jan 30, 2007 Posts: 1641
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:57 am
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <Xns9A0E7738BCE16diddydiddynet DeleteThis @216.196.97.142>, diddy <none>
wrote:
>
>
> A puppy bite! She kissed you!
> Now she can join the ranks of Mr Snappy-grabby
It's a nice little gash. We've been trying to get her in the mode of
"go out and pee and poop and then come back and hang out in bed until we
want to get up and feed you". Only Marcie's early morning version of
hanging out is romping from one end of the bed to the other. Grab at
Rudy, grab at OOPSSSS! Mom screamed! Better not try that again. Well,
at last mom's up but she's going for a bandaid!
She was known as "the shark" at the breeder's, and she's actual done
very well here, but I think I can forgive an 11 week old forgetting
herself in the excitement of the morning!
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Jan 29, 2005 Posts: 1164
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:57 am
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> She was known as "the shark" at the breeder's, and she's actual done
> very well here, but I think I can forgive an 11 week old forgetting
> herself in the excitement of the morning!
>
I think you can forgive her! >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Sep 15, 2007 Posts: 190
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"diddy" wrote:
> Koehler also trained dogs for the military.
And as I understand it, at that time the policy was to look on military
dogs as expendable equipment; if it "broke" while being "manufactured', oh
well. Such "equipment" was also considered "surplus"after use, and abandoned
or destroyed; the U.S. military's record on combat dogs is shameful.
I don't know if that policy has changed or not, but it was in place through
the Vietnam war.
>He had great dog insight. I
> don't agree with all the methods, but if I had a really tough nut to crack
> where nothing else worked, I'd give them a try.
The thing about his methods is that even if they work, what's the cost?
What kind of relationship can exist where, for example, the owner has
hidden, waited for the dog to make noise, and then burst in and beaten the
dog with a leather strap until it's sure it's going to die, as Koehler
instructs?
Yeah, you might cure the barking... but you're also highly likely to end up
with a mentally and emotionally damaged dog, who will develop OTHER
behavioural issues as a result of Koehler's "cure".
>
> Exactly
> If a dog was that bad a case, the person needs to be contacting a
> professional trainer.
Yeah, well, Koehler WAS a professional trainer. :-P
> do think it's a must read for professional trainers
> who are interested in theory.
I agree - as long as it's done in the same way that a medical student might
read about Civil War era surgery without anesthetic. >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Sep 15, 2007 Posts: 190
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Janet Boss" wrote:
>
Marcie's early morning version of
> hanging out is romping from one end of the bed to the other. Grab at
> Rudy, grab at OOPSSSS! Mom screamed! Better not try that again.
Ooops indeed - and OUCH! Nothing like needly puppy teeth. >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Jan 30, 2007 Posts: 1641
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Aug 30, 2007 Posts: 717
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"sionnach" <rhyfelwr59.DeleteThis@verizon.net> said in
rec.pets.dogs.breeds:
> And WAS is the operative term; the book
> you reference is 45 years old.
His son stated more than once that his father was always willing
to learn - that Bill Koehler would now be teaching clicker
training if he was still alive.
Koehler books are difficult to find, even through the library
here.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Jan 30, 2007 Posts: 1641
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <Fri9A0E962D45842australianshepherdca.RemoveThis@rocky-dog.com>,
Rocky <3dogs.RemoveThis@rocky-dog.com> wrote:
>
> Koehler books are difficult to find, even through the library
> here.
They've become banned books! I have several - even the one on Guard Dog
Training, which is not something I ever intend to do. I like to read
about dog training, even when I don't agree with all of it.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Jan 29, 2005 Posts: 1164
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Rocky <3dogs.RemoveThis@rocky-dog.com> spoke these words of wisdom in
news:Fri9A0E962D45842australianshepherdca@rocky-dog.com:
>
> Koehler books are difficult to find, even through the library
> here.
>
They should be. It's nice to know he was flexible enough to think he might
be using clicker training today if he were still around.
He was a dog wizard in his day and did a lot of good things with excellent
results.
His philosphies were sound, but sometimes (especially in the problem dog
sections).. I'd read and go YIKES.. that guy hates dogs!
But he got results. So many methods work, some work better than others.
And although clicker training is useful for many things, it seems most
useful for lower level stuff. But at some point, it fails. A dog becomes
immune to all the click reward stuff.. and finds something thatr interests
it more.
Tuck was a mostly clicker trained dog. .. but he's failed test after
tracking test because he finds squirrels a lot more fascinating than any
track, or any cookie I might offer him.
So yesterday, I took him to the park to look at squirrels. Turned him loose
and waited for mayhem, which ensued. He just happened to be wearing an e-
collar. Something I've always reserved for rescue dogs with established
problems
When Tuck left the park, he didn't think squirrels were interesting to him
at all. We are now ready to continue training. Just call him Tuck.. Fryer
Tuck. >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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Since: Jan 29, 2005 Posts: 1164
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Ever hear of William Kohler? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Janet Boss <janet.RemoveThis@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> spoke these words of wisdom
in news:janet-6C9E85.16510722122007@news.individual.net:
> In article <Fri9A0E962D45842australianshepherdca.RemoveThis@rocky-dog.com>,
> Rocky <3dogs.RemoveThis@rocky-dog.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Koehler books are difficult to find, even through the library
>> here.
>
> They've become banned books! I have several - even the one on Guard Dog
> Training, which is not something I ever intend to do. I like to read
> about dog training, even when I don't agree with all of it.
>
Have they really? i have several >> Stay informed about: Ever hear of William Kohler? |
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