Ignoring Rudy

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:51:29 GMT, Beach Runner <bob RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote:

>this is a vegan group, a google search under animals and learning will
>show lots of great info. Derek is obviously anti-vgan.

Nope. I'm a vegan and have been for nigh on 15
years for ethical reasons. I see animals as rights-
holders but don't believe they can experience
emotions. I make the same mistake that we all
do by projecting my own onto animals from time
to time when talking about them idly with friends
and family, but I don't make that mistake when
discussing them seriously.

It's always a mistake to ascribe human-like
emotions onto non-human animals or objects.
Claiming dogs can feel emotions is as illogical
as claiming;

1) rubber tyres *like* to be warm and dry.
2) roses *hate* greenfly.
3) flowers *love* sunlight.
4) moving objects *like* to keep moving.
5) petrol engines *hate* cold, damp weather.
6) dogs *hate* to be *disappointed*.
7) God *loves* a *repentant* heart.
8) fried bread *likes* a bit of Worcester sauce.
9) teeth *hate* sugar
10) a heart *yearns*

While those claims seem to be true statements,
they aren't, obviously, and those who use this
anthropomorphism when trying to win an assertion
in any real debate will always lose.
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy 

"Derek" <usenet.email.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:51:29 GMT, Beach Runner <bob.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>this is a vegan group, a google search under animals and learning will
>>show lots of great info. Derek is obviously anti-vgan.
>
> Nope. I'm a vegan and have been for nigh on 15
> years for ethical reasons. I see animals as rights-
> holders but don't believe they can experience
> emotions.

How do you define an emotion? What is happening in a dog who is shown his
favorite play-toy when his head and tail become erect and and he pants and
dances around in circles by the door? If that is not anticipation of a
familiar desirable activity AND an expression of emotion then what is it?
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:02:31 GMT, Rudy Canoza <someguy.TakeThisOut@ph.con> wrote:
>Derek wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:17:41 -0600, Meadowlark <YoMama.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Karen.
>
>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: qwest124-dsl8.cybermesa.com

Cynomis: 65.19.25.252
Meadowlark: 65.19.25.124

>Good catch!

As soon as I read Regan, Singer, Rollin and Sapontzis
in one paragraph, I knew what to do next.
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy 

Derek wrote:

> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:02:31 GMT, Rudy Canoza <someguy.DeleteThis@ph.con> wrote:
>
>>Derek wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:17:41 -0600, Meadowlark <YoMama.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Hello Karen.
>>
>>
>>NNTP-Posting-Host: qwest124-dsl8.cybermesa.com
>
>
> Cynomis: 65.19.25.252
> Meadowlark: 65.19.25.124
>
>
>>Good catch!
>
>
> As soon as I read Regan, Singer, Rollin and Sapontzis
> in one paragraph, I knew what to do next.

Of course. I didn't read the post, so I missed it.
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:51:40 -0700, "Dutch" <no.RemoveThis@email.com> wrote:

>
>"Derek" <usenet.email.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote
>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:51:29 GMT, Beach Runner <bob.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>this is a vegan group, a google search under animals and learning will
>>>show lots of great info. Derek is obviously anti-vgan.
>>
>> Nope. I'm a vegan and have been for nigh on 15
>> years for ethical reasons. I see animals as rights-
>> holders but don't believe they can experience
>> emotions.
>
>How do you define an emotion?

A human experience.

>What is happening in a dog who is shown his
>favorite play-toy when his head and tail become erect and and he pants and
>dances around in circles by the door?

Something unemotional.

>If that is not anticipation of a
>familiar desirable activity AND an expression of emotion then what is it?

Conditioning.
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy 

"Derek" <usenet.email DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:51:40 -0700, "Dutch" <no DeleteThis @email.com> wrote:
[..]

>>>>this is a vegan group, a google search under animals and learning will
>>>>show lots of great info. Derek is obviously anti-vgan.
>>>
>>> Nope. I'm a vegan and have been for nigh on 15
>>> years for ethical reasons. I see animals as rights-
>>> holders but don't believe they can experience
>>> emotions.
>>
>>How do you define an emotion?
>
> A human experience.

Which dictionary does that come from? You appear to be inventing a
limitation to support your conclusion.

>>What is happening in a dog who is shown his
>>favorite play-toy when his head and tail become erect and and he pants and
>>dances around in circles by the door?
>
> Something unemotional.

If emotion is an expression of spontaneous, without conscious thought,
mental and physiological excitement, and it is, then the dog is exhibiting
emotion.

>>If that is not anticipation of a
>>familiar desirable activity AND an expression of emotion then what is it?
>
> Conditioning.

Conditioning explains why animals react the way they do to certain stimuli,
not a description of a specific mental and physiological state.
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:50:55 GMT, Rudy Canoza <someguy.RemoveThis@ph.con> wrote:
>Derek wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:02:31 GMT, Rudy Canoza <someguy.RemoveThis@ph.con> wrote:
>>>Derek wrote:
>>>>On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:17:41 -0600, Meadowlark <YoMama.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Hello Karen.
>>>
>>>NNTP-Posting-Host: qwest124-dsl8.cybermesa.com
>>
>> Cynomis: 65.19.25.252
>> Meadowlark: 65.19.25.124
>>
>>>Good catch!
>>
>> As soon as I read Regan, Singer, Rollin and Sapontzis
>> in one paragraph, I knew what to do next.
>
>Of course. I didn't read the post, so I missed it.

I had some catching up to do, so as usual I left nothing
out.
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:05:19 -0700, "Dutch" <no DeleteThis @email.com> wrote:
>"Derek" <usenet.email DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote
>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:51:40 -0700, "Dutch" <no DeleteThis @email.com> wrote:
>[..]
>
>>>>>this is a vegan group, a google search under animals and learning will
>>>>>show lots of great info. Derek is obviously anti-vgan.
>>>>
>>>> Nope. I'm a vegan and have been for nigh on 15
>>>> years for ethical reasons. I see animals as rights-
>>>> holders but don't believe they can experience
>>>> emotions.
>>>
>>>How do you define an emotion?
>>
>> A human experience.
>
>Which dictionary does that come from? You appear to be inventing a
>limitation to support your conclusion.

Rather, you appear to be widening something you don't
fully understand to support yours.

>>>What is happening in a dog who is shown his
>>>favorite play-toy when his head and tail become erect and and he pants and
>>>dances around in circles by the door?
>>
>> Something unemotional.
>
>If emotion is an expression of spontaneous, without conscious thought,
>mental and physiological excitement, and it is, then the dog is exhibiting
>emotion.

The key word there is "exhibiting", which is something
solely dependent on your sentiment rather than logic.
Unless you can find a way of extracting meaningful
information from the dog without resorting to sloppy
sentiment, any statement about that dog will be an
ipse dixit.

>>>If that is not anticipation of a
>>>familiar desirable activity AND an expression of emotion then what is it?
>>
>> Conditioning.
>
>Conditioning explains why animals react the way they do to certain stimuli,
>not a description of a specific mental and physiological state.

Bullseye!
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy 

"Derek" <usenet.email DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:h0kne11kj4dugptsdkhpkp4ak1c1ciflv8@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:05:19 -0700, "Dutch" <no DeleteThis @email.com> wrote:
>>"Derek" <usenet.email DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote
>>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:51:40 -0700, "Dutch" <no DeleteThis @email.com> wrote:
>>[..]
>>
>>>>>>this is a vegan group, a google search under animals and learning will
>>>>>>show lots of great info. Derek is obviously anti-vgan.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. I'm a vegan and have been for nigh on 15
>>>>> years for ethical reasons. I see animals as rights-
>>>>> holders but don't believe they can experience
>>>>> emotions.
>>>>
>>>>How do you define an emotion?
>>>
>>> A human experience.
>>
>>Which dictionary does that come from? You appear to be inventing a
>>limitation to support your conclusion.
>
> Rather, you appear to be widening something you don't
> fully understand to support yours.

Support that. Where is any documentation that proposes
that emotion is uniquely human?

>>>>What is happening in a dog who is shown his
>>>>favorite play-toy when his head and tail become erect and and he pants
>>>>and
>>>>dances around in circles by the door?
>>>
>>> Something unemotional.
>>
>>If emotion is an expression of spontaneous, without conscious thought,
>>mental and physiological excitement, and it is, then the dog is exhibiting
>>emotion.
>
> The key word there is "exhibiting", which is something
> solely dependent on your sentiment rather than logic.

No it's not, it's based on observation, the soul of reason.

There's an old saying, "If it walks like a duck..."

> Unless you can find a way of extracting meaningful
> information from the dog without resorting to sloppy
> sentiment, any statement about that dog will be an
> ipse dixit.

You did not and cannot describe the exhibited behaviour
of the animal in any other way except that it is emotion.

>>>>If that is not anticipation of a
>>>>familiar desirable activity AND an expression of emotion then what is
>>>>it?
>>>
>>> Conditioning.
>>
>>Conditioning explains why animals react the way they do to certain
>>stimuli,
>>not a description of a specific mental and physiological state.
>
> Bullseye!

Then you are reversing your position?

You seem to have come back mindlessly trying to
engratiate yourself to your hero Jonathan Ball, in
the process you have taken a position that even he
would not take. Emotions are not uniquely human,
*some complex* emotions are uniquely human.
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy 

Meadowlark <YoMama.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote in
news:dch0gt$90r$1@reader2.nmix.net:

>
>
> Very interesting, David. I liked your article on "rational
> anarchy" in Heinlein -- his writing certainly did have an effect on
> my political views. I do wish when they made _Starship Troopers_
> into a movie they had paid more attention to the political ideas
> and less to the wonders of SFX. You'd think computer generated stuff
> would be perfect for SF -- and it can be -- but it often takes over
> and absolutely mangles the original. For example, that _I, Robot_
> abortion. I'm trying to decide if I have the heart to go see the new
> _War of the Worlds_. I think I'll wait until it comes on cable.

There haven't been many movies made from good sf that I have enjoyed,
especially that abomination from Verhoaxer.

>
> I think I should go elsewhere to discuss Heinlein and SF with you.
> Opening question: for 50 points, compare and contrast the idea of
> an anarchist community in Heinlein, Ursala LeGuin's _The Dispossessed_
> and Greg Bear's _Moving Mars_. Any interest? Where would you like
> to talk about it, if so?
>
Send me an e-mail at dwrighsr.DeleteThis@alltel.net and I'll make some suggestions.
There are some compelling reasons why I don't want to mention the channels
here.

The only thing that I remember that I have read of Le Guin's was _The Left
Hand of Darkness_ and that was years ago. I have one book of Bear's and I
can't recall whether or not I have read it.

David
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy 

Animals love,
they crave affection in wild or as pests.
They have personalities.
Emotions are probably among the oldest part of the brain.

I'm glad to hear your a vegan and apogees for my incorrect assumption.

Derek wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:51:29 GMT, Beach Runner <bob DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>this is a vegan group, a google search under animals and learning will
>>show lots of great info. Derek is obviously anti-vgan.
>
>
> Nope. I'm a vegan and have been for nigh on 15
> years for ethical reasons. I see animals as rights-
> holders but don't believe they can experience
> emotions. I make the same mistake that we all
> do by projecting my own onto animals from time
> to time when talking about them idly with friends
> and family, but I don't make that mistake when
> discussing them seriously.
>
> It's always a mistake to ascribe human-like
> emotions onto non-human animals or objects.
> Claiming dogs can feel emotions is as illogical
> as claiming;
>
> 1) rubber tyres *like* to be warm and dry.
> 2) roses *hate* greenfly.
> 3) flowers *love* sunlight.
> 4) moving objects *like* to keep moving.
> 5) petrol engines *hate* cold, damp weather.
> 6) dogs *hate* to be *disappointed*.
> 7) God *loves* a *repentant* heart.
> 8) fried bread *likes* a bit of Worcester sauce.
> 9) teeth *hate* sugar
> 10) a heart *yearns*
>
> While those claims seem to be true statements,
> they aren't, obviously, and those who use this
> anthropomorphism when trying to win an assertion
> in any real debate will always lose.
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy 

Derek wrote:

> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:51:40 -0700, "Dutch" <no DeleteThis @email.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"Derek" <usenet.email DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote
>>
>>>On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:51:29 GMT, Beach Runner <bob DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>this is a vegan group, a google search under animals and learning will
>>>>show lots of great info. Derek is obviously anti-vgan.
>>>
>>>Nope. I'm a vegan and have been for nigh on 15
>>>years for ethical reasons. I see animals as rights-
>>>holders but don't believe they can experience
>>>emotions.
>>
>>How do you define an emotion?
>
>
> A human experience.
>

Humans are animals.

>
>>What is happening in a dog who is shown his
>>favorite play-toy when his head and tail become erect and and he pants and
>>dances around in circles by the door?
>
>
> Something unemotional.
>
>
>>If that is not anticipation of a
>>familiar desirable activity AND an expression of emotion then what is it?
>
>
> Conditioning.
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy 

"Beach Runner" <bob.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:a%SGe.58594$mC.38333@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
>
> Derek wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:51:40 -0700, "Dutch" <no.RemoveThis@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Derek" <usenet.email.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:51:29 GMT, Beach Runner <bob.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>this is a vegan group, a google search under animals and learning will
>>>>>show lots of great info. Derek is obviously anti-vgan.
>>>>
>>>>Nope. I'm a vegan and have been for nigh on 15
>>>>years for ethical reasons. I see animals as rights-
>>>>holders but don't believe they can experience
>>>>emotions.
>>>
>>>How do you define an emotion?
>>
>>
>> A human experience.
>>
>
> Humans are animals.

That doesn't refute his claim. All humans are animals,
but all animals are not human.




>>>What is happening in a dog who is shown his favorite play-toy when his
>>>head and tail become erect and and he pants and dances around in circles
>>>by the door?
>>
>>
>> Something unemotional.
>>
>>
>>>If that is not anticipation of a familiar desirable activity AND an
>>>expression of emotion then what is it?
>>
>>
>> Conditioning.
 >> Stay informed about: Ignoring Rudy