Degrees of Cruelty

"ta" <ta33.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
<snip>
> > They defend themselves when threatened, they use their senses to
> > actively hunt, they move to more comfortable places to adjust their
> > temperature, etc.
>
> So? That would indicate innate intelligence, but not necessarily
> "consciousness". Do you a think a snake decides to go out for a hunt, or
do
> you think it is simply "programmed" to do so, and if your answer is the
> former, what evidence would you use to show it?

You must have a completely different understanding of consciousness than I
do. I think a living thing that has intelligence automatically has
consciousness.

> Very interesting, although it does not prove snake consciousness.

You can't learn without consciousness.


> Which is why your argument ultimately fails.

No.

> <snip>
>
> > They don't perceive things because they reactive passively, not
> > actively.
>
> What are the necessary conditions for "perception"?

Having "sensors" (like eyes) and ways of processing the information (a
brain). The best way of knowing the snake actually perceives it is that they
react to what they see.


> But you said snakes feel pain "just like humans". So by your estimation,
> your diet is producing the equivalent of thousands of humans suffering in
> pain. I suspect you might be a little more outraged if you really believed
> that.

I value human lives more than I do snake lives but the actual sensation of
pain of one being cut by a blade and the other being cut by a blade is
probably the same.

> > I'm trying to change people's opinions in that sense. I'm trying to
> > help people acknowledge that reptiles are animals worthy of respect
> > too.
>
> Which is great, and I'm all for it. But you've contradicted your prior
> statement that "it doesn't matter how humans feel about it".

Different context. It doesn't matter how humans feel about it in regards to
the pain the snakes actually feel. It matters what the snake feels when it's
hurt as to the "truth" on that matter. It does matter how humans feel in
relation to the decisions we make on their behalf. As I said before, the
pain is there whether we acknowledge it or not.


> > Why have you been arguing against me then?
>
> That's the problem with you people

What people? What group do you think I'm in?

>- you're so defensive and dug into your
> ideological trenches that you view everything as a battle. You've made up
> your minds on the issue before ever engaging the other person, and all of
> your energy is poured into "winning", instead of trying to actually
*learn*
> something through the process of engagement.

You're never going to convince me that reptiles are less "conscious" and
feel pain any differently than other animals.

> > Don't you care about
> > animals? Or do you just care about the cute fuzzies?
>
> I do care about animals; what would make you think otherwise?

This thread.

>You've
> obviously made all kinds of erroneous assumptions in this thread, which
has
> lead to your confusion and misinterpretation. In the future, try reading
my
> words without projecting all of these assumptions on to them.

Try not to make statements without any evidence. When you talk about how we
don't know what "snake pain" feels like, you sound like Pearl when she tries
to say goat anatomy is completely different from human anatomy.

-Rubystars

"Rubystars" <windstorm RemoveThis @swbell.net> wrote
>
> "ta" <ta33 RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote

> You must have a completely different understanding of consciousness than I
> do. I think a living thing that has intelligence automatically has
> consciousness.
>
>> Very interesting, although it does not prove snake consciousness.
>
> You can't learn without consciousness.

The idea that animals are unconscious, instinct-driven automatons was
discredited decades ago.