Degrees of Cruelty

"Dutch" <no DeleteThis @email.com> wrote in message
<snip>
> What is your objective measure of harm? I don't know that we can say with
> any assurance that a baby feels pain more acutely than a snake.

They don't. Snakes are vertebrates and have the same type of nervous system
we do. The only reason difference in that way is believe in by some people
is that the snakes can't scream (they're mute).

-Rubystars
 >> Stay informed about: Degrees of Cruelty 

Rubystars wrote:
> "Dutch" <no.RemoveThis@email.com> wrote in message
> <snip>
>> What is your objective measure of harm? I don't know that we can say
>> with any assurance that a baby feels pain more acutely than a snake.
>
> They don't. Snakes are vertebrates and have the same type of nervous
> system we do. The only reason difference in that way is believe in by
> some people is that the snakes can't scream (they're mute).
>
> -Rubystars

But ultimately we don't know what "snake pain" feels like. We can surmise
that they feel pain based on our similiar nervous systems, but can't get
inside the mind of a snake, and the qualititative differences between snake
pain and human pain cannot be determined. Their brains, of course, are
vastly different from ours.
 >> Stay informed about: Degrees of Cruelty 

"ta" <ta33.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
<Snip>
>If rats could talk like we humans, the level of outrage would
> surely increase dramatically.

Don't be so sure. Apes can use sign language (though they haven't learned
the full and complete language) to communicate in a human-like manner, and
some parrots have actually been taught to understand and reply in limited
English.

While this makes some difference in helping conservation efforts, it doesn't
have the kind of effect you think it would.

-Rubystars
 >> Stay informed about: Degrees of Cruelty 

"ta" <ta33 DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:y5Q%c.115018$%n4.103455@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> Rubystars wrote:
> > "Dutch" <no DeleteThis @email.com> wrote in message
> > <snip>
> >> What is your objective measure of harm? I don't know that we can say
> >> with any assurance that a baby feels pain more acutely than a snake.
> >
> > They don't. Snakes are vertebrates and have the same type of nervous
> > system we do. The only reason difference in that way is believe in by
> > some people is that the snakes can't scream (they're mute).
> >
> > -Rubystars
>
> But ultimately we don't know what "snake pain" feels like. We can surmise
> that they feel pain based on our similiar nervous systems, but can't get
> inside the mind of a snake, and the qualititative differences between
snake
> pain and human pain cannot be determined. Their brains, of course, are
> vastly different from ours.

Lessened pain receptors would not serve them any selective purpose, and
snakes do react to painful stimuli just as other types of animals do, minus
the screams.

Their brain is less complex, but they are not completely stupid animals.
Their personalities vary between individuals, and some actively hunt, which
is a good sign of intelligence. (Wolf spiders are active hunters, and can
solve puzzles) Snakes use scent much as a dog does to pick up information
about their world.

-Rubystars
 >> Stay informed about: Degrees of Cruelty 

"Rubystars" <windstorm DeleteThis @swbell.net> wrote in message news:<L2R%c.9394$yp2.3096@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
> "ta" <ta33 DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:y5Q%c.115018$%n4.103455@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > Rubystars wrote:
> > > "Dutch" <no DeleteThis @email.com> wrote in message
> > > <snip>
> > >> What is your objective measure of harm? I don't know that we can say
> > >> with any assurance that a baby feels pain more acutely than a snake.
> > >
> > > They don't. Snakes are vertebrates and have the same type of nervous
> > > system we do. The only reason difference in that way is believe in by
> > > some people is that the snakes can't scream (they're mute).
> > >
> > > -Rubystars
> >
> > But ultimately we don't know what "snake pain" feels like. We can surmise
> > that they feel pain based on our similiar nervous systems, but can't get
> > inside the mind of a snake, and the qualititative differences between
> snake
> > pain and human pain cannot be determined. Their brains, of course, are
> > vastly different from ours.
>
> Lessened pain receptors would not serve them any selective purpose, and
> snakes do react to painful stimuli just as other types of animals do, minus
> the screams.
>
> Their brain is less complex, but they are not completely stupid animals.
> Their personalities vary between individuals, and some actively hunt, which
> is a good sign of intelligence. (Wolf spiders are active hunters, and can
> solve puzzles) Snakes use scent much as a dog does to pick up information
> about their world.
>
> -Rubystars


Very interesting, although the tricky part is translating the
observable painful reactions to any kind of "feeling". The big
question to me has to do with consciousness. We don't know alot about
"snake consciousness", and that seems to be a key indicator of how we
feel pain, especially given the absence of the other signs that we
humans normally associate with pain. We're simply not equipped to
understand what "cow pain" and "snake pain" feels like, and so we have
to rely on other, less reliable, evidence. Also, a snake writhing in
pain (if thats what snakes do when in pain) is not going to illicit
the same sort of empathy from humans as a dog yelping or a pig
squealing.
 >> Stay informed about: Degrees of Cruelty 

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:09:12 -0700, "Dutch" <no.TakeThisOut@email.com> wrote:

>
><dh_ld.TakeThisOut@nomail.com> wrote
>> On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:02:04 -0400, "ta" <ta33.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Rank these in the order you find most upsetting/offensive:
>>>
>>>a. The torturing of a 6-month old baby.
>>>b. The torturing of * your* 6-month old baby.
>>>c. The torturing of a 6-month old dog.
>>>d. The torturing of *your* 6-month old dog.
>>>e. The torturing of a 6-month old snake.
>>>f. The torturing of a 6-month old cricket.
>>
>> How about the slow deaths of many poisoned wild animals
>> in crop fields, compared to the swift deaths of livestock in
>> slaughterhouses?
>
>Off topic,

No.

>not the point, start your own thread.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Degrees of Cruelty 

"ta" <ta33.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:c5c0e6e6.0409090642.5eb89ccd@posting.google.com...
> "Rubystars" <windstorm.RemoveThis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:<L2R%c.9394$yp2.3096@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
> > "ta" <ta33.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:y5Q%c.115018$%n4.103455@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > > Rubystars wrote:
> > > > "Dutch" <no.RemoveThis@email.com> wrote in message
> > > > <snip>
> > > >> What is your objective measure of harm? I don't know that we can
say
> > > >> with any assurance that a baby feels pain more acutely than a
snake.
> > > >
> > > > They don't. Snakes are vertebrates and have the same type of nervous
> > > > system we do. The only reason difference in that way is believe in
by
> > > > some people is that the snakes can't scream (they're mute).
> > > >
> > > > -Rubystars
> > >
> > > But ultimately we don't know what "snake pain" feels like. We can
surmise
> > > that they feel pain based on our similiar nervous systems, but can't
get
> > > inside the mind of a snake, and the qualititative differences between
> > snake
> > > pain and human pain cannot be determined. Their brains, of course, are
> > > vastly different from ours.
> >
> > Lessened pain receptors would not serve them any selective purpose, and
> > snakes do react to painful stimuli just as other types of animals do,
minus
> > the screams.
> >
> > Their brain is less complex, but they are not completely stupid animals.
> > Their personalities vary between individuals, and some actively hunt,
which
> > is a good sign of intelligence. (Wolf spiders are active hunters, and
can
> > solve puzzles) Snakes use scent much as a dog does to pick up
information
> > about their world.
> >
> > -Rubystars
>
>
> Very interesting, although the tricky part is translating the
> observable painful reactions to any kind of "feeling". The big
> question to me has to do with consciousness. We don't know alot about
> "snake consciousness", and that seems to be a key indicator of how we
> feel pain, especially given the absence of the other signs that we
> humans normally associate with pain.

They're conscious. They actively explore their world and hunt. They have a
brain, which, despite some differences in complexity, is much the same. Also
they react to fear. If they're not given enough hiding spaces in captivity
they can become stressed from the constant threat they feel of being preyed
upon (well they may not think of it in that way exactly, they probably feel
it more as a deep urge to hide) and become ill from the stress. Snakes
interact in complex ways sometimes too. If you've ever seen "ritualized
combat" you'll know they're beautiful animals. :)

>We're simply not equipped to
> understand what "cow pain" and "snake pain" feels like, and so we have
> to rely on other, less reliable, evidence.

We're animals, they're animals, we all have the same nervous system we
derived from common ancestors, so we all feel pain the same way, at least,
mostly. And in the case of pain it's better to err on the side of caution.

> Also, a snake writhing in
> pain (if thats what snakes do when in pain) is not going to illicit
> the same sort of empathy from humans as a dog yelping or a pig
> squealing.

That doesn't make it any less painful for the snake. We're conditioned to
react to screams, but if the snake could scream, it would.

-Rubystars
 >> Stay informed about: Degrees of Cruelty 

Rubystars wrote:
> "ta" <ta33 RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:c5c0e6e6.0409090642.5eb89ccd@posting.google.com...
>> "Rubystars" <windstorm RemoveThis @swbell.net> wrote in message
> news:<L2R%c.9394$yp2.3096@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
>>> "ta" <ta33 RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>> news:y5Q%c.115018$%n4.103455@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>>> Rubystars wrote:
>>>>> "Dutch" <no RemoveThis @email.com> wrote in message
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>> What is your objective measure of harm? I don't know that we can
>>>>>> say with any assurance that a baby feels pain more acutely than
>>>>>> a snake.
>>>>>
>>>>> They don't. Snakes are vertebrates and have the same type of
>>>>> nervous system we do. The only reason difference in that way is
>>>>> believe in by some people is that the snakes can't scream
>>>>> (they're mute).
>>>>>
>>>>> -Rubystars
>>>>
>>>> But ultimately we don't know what "snake pain" feels like. We can
>>>> surmise that they feel pain based on our similiar nervous systems,
>>>> but can't get inside the mind of a snake, and the qualititative
>>>> differences between
>>> snake
>>>> pain and human pain cannot be determined. Their brains, of course,
>>>> are vastly different from ours.
>>>
>>> Lessened pain receptors would not serve them any selective purpose,
>>> and snakes do react to painful stimuli just as other types of
>>> animals do, minus the screams.
>>>
>>> Their brain is less complex, but they are not completely stupid
>>> animals. Their personalities vary between individuals, and some
>>> actively hunt, which is a good sign of intelligence. (Wolf spiders
>>> are active hunters, and can solve puzzles) Snakes use scent much as
>>> a dog does to pick up information about their world.
>>>
>>> -Rubystars
>>
>>
>> Very interesting, although the tricky part is translating the
>> observable painful reactions to any kind of "feeling". The big
>> question to me has to do with consciousness. We don't know alot about
>> "snake consciousness", and that seems to be a key indicator of how we
>> feel pain, especially given the absence of the other signs that we
>> humans normally associate with pain.
>
> They're conscious.

We really don't even know that much; it's a big question mark. Having a
brain and a CNS are not necessarily the only requirements for consciousness,
depeding on how we define consciousness. We don't know whether a snake can
experience "qualia" or have a sense of "self".

But there's certainly no reason I can think of to automatically assume that
snakes and other animals are not fully equipped to experience consciousness.

There is vast disagreement about what consciousness is, even in humans.

> They actively explore their world and hunt. They
> have a brain, which, despite some differences in complexity, is much
> the same. Also they react to fear. If they're not given enough hiding
> spaces in captivity they can become stressed from the constant threat
> they feel of being preyed upon (well they may not think of it in that
> way exactly, they probably feel it more as a deep urge to hide) and
> become ill from the stress. Snakes interact in complex ways sometimes
> too. If you've ever seen "ritualized combat" you'll know they're
> beautiful animals. :)

Sorry, haven't seen it. Btw, I'm not degrading snakes in any way; they're
fascinating and wonderful creatures, no doubt.

>> We're simply not equipped to
>> understand what "cow pain" and "snake pain" feels like, and so we
>> have to rely on other, less reliable, evidence.
>
> We're animals, they're animals, we all have the same nervous system we
> derived from common ancestors, so we all feel pain the same way, at
> least, mostly.

That's a statement that simply cannot be verified. We do not know whether or
not all animals feel pain in the same way.

> And in the case of pain it's better to err on the
> side of caution.

By doing what exactly?

>> Also, a snake writhing in
>> pain (if thats what snakes do when in pain) is not going to illicit
>> the same sort of empathy from humans as a dog yelping or a pig
>> squealing.
>
> That doesn't make it any less painful for the snake.

Right, I wasn't suggesting that it does. I'm just pointing out that how we
humans perceive pain in other creatures depends on how closely we can
identify with the creature.

> We're
> conditioned to react to screams, but if the snake could scream, it
> would.
>
> -Rubystars
 >> Stay informed about: Degrees of Cruelty 

"ta" <ta33.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
<snip>
> > They're conscious.
>
> We really don't even know that much; it's a big question mark.

You'd know it if you worked with them.

>Having a
> brain and a CNS are not necessarily the only requirements for
consciousness,
> depeding on how we define consciousness. We don't know whether a snake can
> experience "qualia" or have a sense of "self".

Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain.

> But there's certainly no reason I can think of to automatically assume
that
> snakes and other animals are not fully equipped to experience
consciousness.

It's more reasonable to assume they're conscious since they behave in a
manner which suggests they do, and have a CNS similar to our own.

> There is vast disagreement about what consciousness is, even in humans.

Philosophical fluff. We all know what it is to be awake and aware of what's
going on around us, to feel pain, etc. You don't have to try to "define" it.
This newsgroup isn't that formal I hope.

> Sorry, haven't seen it. Btw, I'm not degrading snakes in any way; they're
> fascinating and wonderful creatures, no doubt.

Yes.

> > We're animals, they're animals, we all have the same nervous system we
> > derived from common ancestors, so we all feel pain the same way, at
> > least, mostly.
>
> That's a statement that simply cannot be verified. We do not know whether
or
> not all animals feel pain in the same way.

It's not reasonable to hold a position that an animal with the same
equipment we have has a completely different sensation from it. In fact, the
burden of evidence would be on the person claiming the sensations were
different, rather than the same.

> > And in the case of pain it's better to err on the
> > side of caution.
>
> By doing what exactly?

By acknowledging that other animals feel pain and taking that into
consideration when making decisions concerning them.

> >> Also, a snake writhing in
> >> pain (if thats what snakes do when in pain) is not going to illicit
> >> the same sort of empathy from humans as a dog yelping or a pig
> >> squealing.
> >
> > That doesn't make it any less painful for the snake.
>
> Right, I wasn't suggesting that it does. I'm just pointing out that how we
> humans perceive pain in other creatures depends on how closely we can
> identify with the creature.

It's just as bad to torture a lizard as it is to torture a beagle. The pain
is just as intense. One is mostly silent even while struggling in pain, and
the other yelps and shows other vocal sounds of distress. Humans understand
screaming and empathize with it. Unfortunately many sentient animals are
mute or mostly mute.

It'd be better if the animals could talk and tell of their pain. Humans
might empathize even more. Rare are such animals, such as Michael the
gorilla who told his own story of being captured by poachers through limited
sign language.

Talking is not in most animal's natures however, and screaming isn't in
others. That doesn't mean they hurt less or feel less.

-Rubystars
 >> Stay informed about: Degrees of Cruelty 

"Rubystars" <windstorm DeleteThis @swbell.net> wrote in message news:<1Ec0d.9625$yp2.4544@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
> "ta" <ta33 DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> <snip>
> > > They're conscious.
> >
> > We really don't even know that much; it's a big question mark.
>
> You'd know it if you worked with them.

If your definition of "consciousness" is "alive", that's a flimsy bar
to set. Working with snakes gives you absolutely not clue as to
whether a snake is "conscious" or not. Ultimately, it rests on what
one's definition of consciousness is, which as I pointed out, is a
highly contested issue.

> >Having a
> > brain and a CNS are not necessarily the only requirements for
> consciousness,
> > depeding on how we define consciousness. We don't know whether a snake can
> > experience "qualia" or have a sense of "self".
>
> Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain.

Says you, but that arbitrary definition is by no means the accepted
definition of consciousness in the scientific community at large.

> > But there's certainly no reason I can think of to automatically assume
> that
> > snakes and other animals are not fully equipped to experience
> consciousness.
>
> It's more reasonable to assume they're conscious since they behave in a
> manner which suggests they do, and have a CNS similar to our own.

It's more reasonable not to *assume* anything.

> > There is vast disagreement about what consciousness is, even in humans.
>
> Philosophical fluff.

(laugh)!

> We all know what it is to be awake and aware of what's
> going on around us,

How do you know that a snake is "aware"? What are the necessary
conditions for "awareness"?

> to feel pain, etc. You don't have to try to "define" it.

Without a clear definition of things like "awareness" and
"consciousness", claiming that a creature can have it is obviously
futile.

> This newsgroup isn't that formal I hope.
>
> > Sorry, haven't seen it. Btw, I'm not degrading snakes in any way; they're
> > fascinating and wonderful creatures, no doubt.
>
> Yes.
>
> > > We're animals, they're animals, we all have the same nervous system we
> > > derived from common ancestors, so we all feel pain the same way, at
> > > least, mostly.
> >
> > That's a statement that simply cannot be verified. We do not know whether
> or
> > not all animals feel pain in the same way.
>
> It's not reasonable to hold a position that an animal with the same
> equipment we have has a completely different sensation from it.

Straw man. That is not my position. My position is that we do not know
what "snake pain" feels like. In addition, we do not have the same
equipment, obviously. There are similiarties, but our equipment is not
identical.

> In fact, the
> burden of evidence would be on the person claiming the sensations were
> different, rather than the same.

See above.

> > > And in the case of pain it's better to err on the
> > > side of caution.
> >
> > By doing what exactly?
>
> By acknowledging that other animals feel pain and taking that into
> consideration when making decisions concerning them.

That's obvious enough, but the devil is in the details. For example,
do you stop eating wheat - god knows how many snakes have suffered and
died to make your bread.

Anyway, back to the original point, we humans (most of us anyway)
would clearly have greater objections to a bunch of deer being
trampled by combines than a bunch of snakes, which indicates that "all
cruelty is not created equal" by our standards.

> > >> Also, a snake writhing in
> > >> pain (if thats what snakes do when in pain) is not going to illicit
> > >> the same sort of empathy from humans as a dog yelping or a pig
> > >> squealing.
> > >
> > > That doesn't make it any less painful for the snake.
> >
> > Right, I wasn't suggesting that it does. I'm just pointing out that how we
> > humans perceive pain in other creatures depends on how closely we can
> > identify with the creature.
>
> It's just as bad to torture a lizard as it is to torture a beagle.

It depends. All torture for torture's sake alone is categorically
wrong; everyone would agree to that. However, let's imagine that
scientists can definitively cure breast cancer by experimenting on
lizards and beagles; they both have equal value in producing the
desired results. There's no doubt in mind that we would choose the
lizards instead of the beagles. That does not mean that a beagle's
life is objectively more valuable than a lizard's of course (assuming
such a value could be obtained in the first place), but it does mean
that we have more empathy for creatures that we can identify more
closely with. Therefore, to make a blanket statement that "all cruelty
is created equally" is not consistent with how we humans think and
behave.

> The pain
> is just as intense.

Neither you nor anyone else can say that with any degree of certainty.
That may be your *belief*, which indicates your own personal
identification with reptiles, but it is a belief nonetheless, and
certainly no basis for us to accept it as fact.

Have you ever felt "lizard pain"? How bout "beagle pain"? What does it
feel like?

> One is mostly silent even while struggling in pain, and
> the other yelps and shows other vocal sounds of distress. Humans understand
> screaming and empathize with it. Unfortunately many sentient animals are
> mute or mostly mute.
>
> It'd be better if the animals could talk and tell of their pain. Humans
> might empathize even more. Rare are such animals, such as Michael the
> gorilla who told his own story of being captured by poachers through limited
> sign language.
>
> Talking is not in most animal's natures however, and screaming isn't in
> others. That doesn't mean they hurt less or feel less.

Of course not, but it does mean that we have fewer clues to go by in
determining the nature of how the creature feels pain, and it goes a
long way in explaining why we humans have this hierarchy of
identification with suffering in various creatures.

> -Rubystars
 >> Stay informed about: Degrees of Cruelty 

"ta" <ta33.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:c5c0e6e6.0409100713.345f00ee@posting.google.com...
> "Rubystars" <windstorm.DeleteThis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:<1Ec0d.9625$yp2.4544@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
> > "ta" <ta33.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > <snip>
> > > > They're conscious.
> > >
> > > We really don't even know that much; it's a big question mark.
> >
> > You'd know it if you worked with them.
>
> If your definition of "consciousness" is "alive", that's a flimsy bar
> to set. Working with snakes gives you absolutely not clue as to
> whether a snake is "conscious" or not. Ultimately, it rests on what
> one's definition of consciousness is, which as I pointed out, is a
> highly contested issue.

You can see them actively exploring their world and reacting to external
stimuli. Bacteria, plants, and fungi are alive but not conscious. The same
could be argued for some simple animals, such as sea sponges. Snakes are
advanced animals with minds of their own.

> > Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain.
>
> Says you, but that arbitrary definition is by no means the accepted
> definition of consciousness in the scientific community at large.

If they have the same structures that cause consciousness in us, then it's
only reasonable that's what gives them consciousness.

> > We all know what it is to be awake and aware of what's
> > going on around us,
>
> How do you know that a snake is "aware"? What are the necessary
> conditions for "awareness"?

They perceive and react to external stimuli.

> > It's not reasonable to hold a position that an animal with the same
> > equipment we have has a completely different sensation from it.
>
> Straw man. That is not my position. My position is that we do not know
> what "snake pain" feels like. In addition, we do not have the same
> equipment, obviously. There are similiarties, but our equipment is not
> identical.

We know what snake pain feels like because we have the same equipment for
perceiving pain that they do. They're called nerves and a brain.

> > By acknowledging that other animals feel pain and taking that into
> > consideration when making decisions concerning them.
>
> That's obvious enough, but the devil is in the details. For example,
> do you stop eating wheat - god knows how many snakes have suffered and
> died to make your bread.

It's true that snakes and other animals suffer and die in food production.
You're starting to sound like Rick. :)

> Anyway, back to the original point, we humans (most of us anyway)
> would clearly have greater objections to a bunch of deer being
> trampled by combines than a bunch of snakes, which indicates that "all
> cruelty is not created equal" by our standards.

Snakes would be chopped up more quickly than the deer would because they're
smaller. That's one difference.

> > It's just as bad to torture a lizard as it is to torture a beagle.
>
> It depends. All torture for torture's sake alone is categorically
> wrong; everyone would agree to that. However, let's imagine that
> scientists can definitively cure breast cancer by experimenting on
> lizards and beagles; they both have equal value in producing the
> desired results. There's no doubt in mind that we would choose the
> lizards instead of the beagles.

Why? Because they don't have fur? That's ridiculous.

>That does not mean that a beagle's
> life is objectively more valuable than a lizard's of course (assuming
> such a value could be obtained in the first place), but it does mean
> that we have more empathy for creatures that we can identify more
> closely with.

I love reptiles and mammals.

>Therefore, to make a blanket statement that "all cruelty
> is created equally" is not consistent with how we humans think and
> behave.

I doesn't matter how humans feel about it. The pain is there whether we
acknowledge it or not.

> > The pain
> > is just as intense.
>
> Neither you nor anyone else can say that with any degree of certainty.
> That may be your *belief*, which indicates your own personal
> identification with reptiles, but it is a belief nonetheless, and
> certainly no basis for us to accept it as fact.

It's not a personal identification. I can look at the animal's reactions and
know they react in identical manner to what dogs and humans do when they're
in pain, minus the screaming.

> Have you ever felt "lizard pain"? How bout "beagle pain"? What does it
> feel like?

There's no reason to believe it feels any different from human pain.

> > One is mostly silent even while struggling in pain, and
> > the other yelps and shows other vocal sounds of distress. Humans
understand
> > screaming and empathize with it. Unfortunately many sentient animals are
> > mute or mostly mute.
> >
> > It'd be better if the animals could talk and tell of their pain. Humans
> > might empathize even more. Rare are such animals, such as Michael the
> > gorilla who told his own story of being captured by poachers through
limited
> > sign language.
> >
> > Talking is not in most animal's natures however, and screaming isn't in
> > others. That doesn't mean they hurt less or feel less.
>
> Of course not, but it does mean that we have fewer clues to go by in
> determining the nature of how the creature feels pain, and it goes a
> long way in explaining why we humans have this hierarchy of
> identification with suffering in various creatures.

I think people just say some animals don't feel pain so they can make
themselves feel better when they hurt them.

-Rubystars
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"ta" <ta33.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<eD%_c.106908$%n4.7386@bignews6.bellsouth.net>...
> Rank these in the order you find most upsetting/offensive:
>
> a. The torturing of a 6-month old baby.
> b. The torturing of * your* 6-month old baby.
> c. The torturing of a 6-month old dog.
> d. The torturing of *your* 6-month old dog.
> e. The torturing of a 6-month old snake.
> f. The torturing of a 6-month old cricket.

b/d the same-both are my dependents and rely on me for their
protection.

a/c the same-equal capacity to suffer, physically and emotionally.

e-capacity to suffer unknown to me, but assume an equal desire to
avoid pain and perserve life.

f-capacity to suffer unknown to me, assume a collective consciousness,
not an individual one.
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"Dutch" <no.DeleteThis@email.com> wrote in message news:<10jv00v14g7lqb3.DeleteThis@news.supernews.com>...
> "Purple" <purple2510.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9e034035.0409081030.74d52530@posting.google.com...
> > "ta" <ta33.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:<Nsu%c.92925$0o5.52625@bignews1.bellsouth.net>...
> >> Dutch wrote:
> >> > "ta" <ta33.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >> > news:vF%_c.106913$%n4.43790@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> >> >> ta wrote:
> >> >>> Rank these in the order you find most upsetting/offensive:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> a. The torturing of a 6-month old baby.
> >> >>> b. The torturing of * your* 6-month old baby.
> >> >>> c. The torturing of a 6-month old dog.
> >> >>> d. The torturing of *your* 6-month old dog.
> >> >>> e. The torturing of a 6-month old snake.
> >> >>> f. The torturing of a 6-month old cricket.
> >> >>
> >> >> I should have mentioned the motive in all instances is the sick
> >> >> pleasure of
> >> >> the torturer (i.e., the torture is an end in itself).
> >> >
> >> > On one level they are all equal, it is reprehensible to use pain as a
> >> > form of entertainment.
> >>
> >> What levels are you referring to?
> >>
> >> > On another level they rank b-a-d-c-e-f.
> >>
> >> What is your rationale? (I agree with your ranking, btw).
> >
> > On what level does that ranking make sense?
>
> It makes sense if you are more disturbed by the torture of *any* 6 month old
> baby than you are by the torture of your own 6 month old puppy. I can
> understand seeing it either way.

Ok. Fair enough. I find it hard to imagine anyone being more
genuinely upset about the torture of a complete stranger than a friend
though, even if the stranger is a human and the friend is a dog.
>
> > If ranked by the reprehensibility
> > of the motive they are all equal,
>
> Agreed
>
> > if ranked by the amount of harm they
> > do then a/b are equivalent c/d are equivalent,
> > all 4 are probably worse than
> > e, which is in turn probably worse than f.
>
> What is your objective measure of harm? I don't know that we can say with
> any assurance that a baby feels pain more acutely than a snake.

I don't have an objetcive measure of harm. Hence the use
of 'probably'.
>
> > If ranked by the amount of distress
> > they would cause me personally then they rank b-d-a/c(equal)-e-f.
>
> You would be equally upset to hear about someone who tortures puppies as you
> would about someone who tortures babies?

I think so although if I had either a baby or a puppy I think I would
be more upset to hear about the baby being tortured. These are purely
subjective feelings that have nothing to do with rationality. The first
is also a feeling I doubt that many would share.
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