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Next: TROPICAL FISH AUCTION, Oct 3rd, in Southern Calif..
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External
Since: Oct 12, 2004
Posts: 30
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:03 am
Post subject: filter head
Archived from groups: rec>aquaria>freshwater>misc (more info?)
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Hi,
I'm trying to understand what exactly is meant by the head (of water) a
filter wuill work to.
Is it the difference, in height, between the inlet & outlet relative to each
other or is it the actual max height the filter will pump to even if the
actual outlet is lower (i.e. if it has to pump up and over the top of the
aquarium and down the inside).
I hope I've explained myself !!
tia Sky. |
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External
Since: Oct 02, 2004
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:01 am
Post subject: Re: filter head [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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SkyCatcher wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm trying to understand what exactly is meant by the head (of water) a
> filter wuill work to.
>
> Is it the difference, in height, between the inlet & outlet relative to each
> other or is it the actual max height the filter will pump to even if the
> actual outlet is lower (i.e. if it has to pump up and over the top of the
> aquarium and down the inside).
>
> I hope I've explained myself !!
>
> tia Sky.
Sky,
From info gathered while shopping for pumps, I got this impression;
Measuring a system for the height that needs to be over come, is the
vertical measurement from the surface of the body of water where the
pump gets its water from, to the surface of the water where the pump
pumps the water to. This assumes that the return line is submerged
somewhere below the surface of the tank water (it doesn't matter how
deep).
For a canister filter, receiving and sending its water to the same
body of water (same elevation) the height measurement would be zero.
The loops over the edge don't affect this calculation, nor do the
depth of the line below the water line. I'm guessing this is why
canister filters, and power heads, are sold with single flow rates
listed.
For an open sump type filter, the measurement would be the vertical
distance from the surface of the water in the pump compartment of the
sump, to the surface of the water in the aquarium. Pumps for this
purpose tend to be sold with a chart that indicates how much water
volume will flow at various required heights.
Some of these pumps have a single flow marked on the box. This is
usually the free flow AKA max flow (flow at zero feet).
For a return line that ends above the surface of the tank water,
then the upper measurement would be to the opening of the return line,
not the highest point of the return line. Unless, (unusual but...) if
the diameter of the descending portion of none submerged return line
is so large that air can get back up into it, breaking the descending
syphon, then the upper measurement would be at that point where the
water begins to 'spill' probably at the crest bend.
Of course, none of this accounts for loss from hoses, fittings,
valves, restricted filters and such.
HT(rambling)H
Paul |
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External
Since: Feb 19, 2006
Posts: 2334
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:55 am
Post subject: Re: filter head [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"pausto" <pausto RemoveThis @XXXerols.com> wrote in message
news:415EA6B9.4C131ED3@XXXerols.com...
> SkyCatcher wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm trying to understand what exactly is meant by the head (of water)
a
> > filter wuill work to.
> >
> > Is it the difference, in height, between the inlet & outlet relative
to each
> > other or is it the actual max height the filter will pump to even if
the
> > actual outlet is lower (i.e. if it has to pump up and over the top of
the
> > aquarium and down the inside).
> >
> > I hope I've explained myself !!
> >
> > tia Sky.
>
> Sky,
> From info gathered while shopping for pumps, I got this impression;
>
> Measuring a system for the height that needs to be over come, is the
> vertical measurement from the surface of the body of water where the
> pump gets its water from, to the surface of the water where the pump
> pumps the water to. This assumes that the return line is submerged
> somewhere below the surface of the tank water (it doesn't matter how
> deep).
> For a canister filter, receiving and sending its water to the same
> body of water (same elevation) the height measurement would be zero.
> The loops over the edge don't affect this calculation, nor do the
> depth of the line below the water line. I'm guessing this is why
> canister filters, and power heads, are sold with single flow rates
> listed.
> For an open sump type filter, the measurement would be the vertical
> distance from the surface of the water in the pump compartment of the
> sump, to the surface of the water in the aquarium. Pumps for this
> purpose tend to be sold with a chart that indicates how much water
> volume will flow at various required heights.
> Some of these pumps have a single flow marked on the box. This is
> usually the free flow AKA max flow (flow at zero feet).
>
> For a return line that ends above the surface of the tank water,
> then the upper measurement would be to the opening of the return line,
> not the highest point of the return line. Unless, (unusual but...) if
> the diameter of the descending portion of none submerged return line
> is so large that air can get back up into it, breaking the descending
> syphon, then the upper measurement would be at that point where the
> water begins to 'spill' probably at the crest bend.
>
> Of course, none of this accounts for loss from hoses, fittings,
> valves, restricted filters and such.
>
> HT(rambling)H
> Paul
Very nice explanation.
--
www.NetMax.tk >> Stay informed about: filter head |
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External
Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 28
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:11 pm
Post subject: Re: filter head [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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NetMax wrote:
>
> "pausto" <pausto RemoveThis @XXXerols.com> wrote in message
> news:415EA6B9.4C131ED3@XXXerols.com...
> > SkyCatcher wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I'm trying to understand what exactly is meant by the head (of water)
> a
> > > filter wuill work to.
> > >
> > > Is it the difference, in height, between the inlet & outlet relative
> to each
> > > other or is it the actual max height the filter will pump to even if
> the
> > > actual outlet is lower (i.e. if it has to pump up and over the top of
> the
> > > aquarium and down the inside).
> > >
> > > I hope I've explained myself !!
> > >
> > > tia Sky.
> >
> > Sky,
> > From info gathered while shopping for pumps, I got this impression;
> >
> > Measuring a system for the height that needs to be over come, is the
> > vertical measurement from the surface of the body of water where the
> > pump gets its water from, to the surface of the water where the pump
> > pumps the water to. This assumes that the return line is submerged
> > somewhere below the surface of the tank water (it doesn't matter how
> > deep).
> > For a canister filter, receiving and sending its water to the same
> > body of water (same elevation) the height measurement would be zero.
> > The loops over the edge don't affect this calculation, nor do the
> > depth of the line below the water line. I'm guessing this is why
> > canister filters, and power heads, are sold with single flow rates
> > listed.
> > For an open sump type filter, the measurement would be the vertical
> > distance from the surface of the water in the pump compartment of the
> > sump, to the surface of the water in the aquarium. Pumps for this
> > purpose tend to be sold with a chart that indicates how much water
> > volume will flow at various required heights.
> > Some of these pumps have a single flow marked on the box. This is
> > usually the free flow AKA max flow (flow at zero feet).
> >
> > For a return line that ends above the surface of the tank water,
> > then the upper measurement would be to the opening of the return line,
> > not the highest point of the return line. Unless, (unusual but...) if
> > the diameter of the descending portion of none submerged return line
> > is so large that air can get back up into it, breaking the descending
> > syphon, then the upper measurement would be at that point where the
> > water begins to 'spill' probably at the crest bend.
> >
> > Of course, none of this accounts for loss from hoses, fittings,
> > valves, restricted filters and such.
> >
> > HT(rambling)H
> > Paul
>
> Very nice explanation.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
Thanks for the response NetMax. I was hoping I had absorbed the info
somewhat correctly. There's a ton of, sometimes confusing, info to
weed through when selecting pumps and plumbing.
Paul >> Stay informed about: filter head |
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External
Since: Oct 12, 2004
Posts: 30
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:41 pm
Post subject: Re: filter head [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Great explaination....
so if I'm using an external canister filter as you describe, it doesn't
matter how low down below a tall aquarium I have the filter as the net
resultant head is zero (allowing of course for frictional losss in long run
of pipe) - correct?
(almost) a happy man!, Sky.
"pausto" <pausto.RemoveThis@XXXerols.com> wrote in message
news:415EA6B9.4C131ED3@XXXerols.com...
> SkyCatcher wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm trying to understand what exactly is meant by the head (of water) a
> > filter wuill work to.
> >
> > Is it the difference, in height, between the inlet & outlet relative to
each
> > other or is it the actual max height the filter will pump to even if the
> > actual outlet is lower (i.e. if it has to pump up and over the top of
the
> > aquarium and down the inside).
> >
> > I hope I've explained myself !!
> >
> > tia Sky.
>
> Sky,
> From info gathered while shopping for pumps, I got this impression;
>
> Measuring a system for the height that needs to be over come, is the
> vertical measurement from the surface of the body of water where the
> pump gets its water from, to the surface of the water where the pump
> pumps the water to. This assumes that the return line is submerged
> somewhere below the surface of the tank water (it doesn't matter how
> deep).
> For a canister filter, receiving and sending its water to the same
> body of water (same elevation) the height measurement would be zero.
> The loops over the edge don't affect this calculation, nor do the
> depth of the line below the water line. I'm guessing this is why
> canister filters, and power heads, are sold with single flow rates
> listed.
> For an open sump type filter, the measurement would be the vertical
> distance from the surface of the water in the pump compartment of the
> sump, to the surface of the water in the aquarium. Pumps for this
> purpose tend to be sold with a chart that indicates how much water
> volume will flow at various required heights.
> Some of these pumps have a single flow marked on the box. This is
> usually the free flow AKA max flow (flow at zero feet).
>
> For a return line that ends above the surface of the tank water,
> then the upper measurement would be to the opening of the return line,
> not the highest point of the return line. Unless, (unusual but...) if
> the diameter of the descending portion of none submerged return line
> is so large that air can get back up into it, breaking the descending
> syphon, then the upper measurement would be at that point where the
> water begins to 'spill' probably at the crest bend.
>
> Of course, none of this accounts for loss from hoses, fittings,
> valves, restricted filters and such.
>
> HT(rambling)H
> Paul >> Stay informed about: filter head |
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External
Since: Feb 19, 2006
Posts: 2334
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:41 pm
Post subject: Re: filter head [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Regarding the canister, yes - in theory. The weight of the water in the
intake hose = the weight in the return hose, and if both hose ends are
underwater or close to the water surface, then there is very little
'head' for the pump to work against.
In practise, this weight has to exert itself somewhere, and it will be on
the gasket seals of the hose connectors and canister body. If you put
the canister too far below the tank, seals may fail.
Hose length also affects performance, simply because of the weight of the
water to get started and the rolling resistance (through elbows etc), but
in normal applications, it's not significant enough to worry about.
Some people put a pinhole in the intake hose to cause the flow to break
in the event of a canister seal failure causing your tank to start
emptying itself on to your floor, ymmv.
--
www.NetMax.tk
"SkyCatcher" <brian.shannon RemoveThis @NOSPAMhotpop.com> wrote in message
news:415ff1f5$0$79207$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> Great explaination....
>
> so if I'm using an external canister filter as you describe, it doesn't
> matter how low down below a tall aquarium I have the filter as the net
> resultant head is zero (allowing of course for frictional losss in long
run
> of pipe) - correct?
>
> (almost) a happy man!, Sky.
>
>
> "pausto" <pausto RemoveThis @XXXerols.com> wrote in message
> news:415EA6B9.4C131ED3@XXXerols.com...
> > SkyCatcher wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I'm trying to understand what exactly is meant by the head (of
water) a
> > > filter wuill work to.
> > >
> > > Is it the difference, in height, between the inlet & outlet
relative to
> each
> > > other or is it the actual max height the filter will pump to even
if the
> > > actual outlet is lower (i.e. if it has to pump up and over the top
of
> the
> > > aquarium and down the inside).
> > >
> > > I hope I've explained myself !!
> > >
> > > tia Sky.
> >
> > Sky,
> > From info gathered while shopping for pumps, I got this impression;
> >
> > Measuring a system for the height that needs to be over come, is
the
> > vertical measurement from the surface of the body of water where the
> > pump gets its water from, to the surface of the water where the pump
> > pumps the water to. This assumes that the return line is submerged
> > somewhere below the surface of the tank water (it doesn't matter how
> > deep).
> > For a canister filter, receiving and sending its water to the same
> > body of water (same elevation) the height measurement would be zero.
> > The loops over the edge don't affect this calculation, nor do the
> > depth of the line below the water line. I'm guessing this is why
> > canister filters, and power heads, are sold with single flow rates
> > listed.
> > For an open sump type filter, the measurement would be the vertical
> > distance from the surface of the water in the pump compartment of the
> > sump, to the surface of the water in the aquarium. Pumps for this
> > purpose tend to be sold with a chart that indicates how much water
> > volume will flow at various required heights.
> > Some of these pumps have a single flow marked on the box. This is
> > usually the free flow AKA max flow (flow at zero feet).
> >
> > For a return line that ends above the surface of the tank water,
> > then the upper measurement would be to the opening of the return
line,
> > not the highest point of the return line. Unless, (unusual but...) if
> > the diameter of the descending portion of none submerged return line
> > is so large that air can get back up into it, breaking the descending
> > syphon, then the upper measurement would be at that point where the
> > water begins to 'spill' probably at the crest bend.
> >
> > Of course, none of this accounts for loss from hoses, fittings,
> > valves, restricted filters and such.
> >
> > HT(rambling)H
> > Paul
>
> >> Stay informed about: filter head |
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External
Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 28
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:58 pm
Post subject: Re: filter head [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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|
SkyCatcher wrote:
>
> Great explaination....
>
> so if I'm using an external canister filter as you describe, it doesn't
> matter how low down below a tall aquarium I have the filter as the net
> resultant head is zero (allowing of course for frictional losss in long run
> of pipe) - correct?
>
> (almost) a happy man!, Sky.
>
Correct! for flow (allowing for friction loss...).
However, (And I don't think this is going to be a problem for your
setup) this should be said for someone who is thinking of moving their
canister to the basement and pumping to the 2nd floor.
Note: I'm no expert. This is from memory of stuff I read while
shopping for aquarium pumps and plumbing.
As the elevation difference becomes more extreme, the force of the
Static Fill Pressure on the canister seals needs to be considered.
With the canister and lines fully filled/primed, and the pump
turned off; There is approximately 0.43 psi pressure for each foot of
elevation (measured vertically from the canister seal to the tank
water level) that is exerted on the canister seal. It doesn't matter
what the plumbing diameter is, tank size or how many lines run from
the canister. In an open system (which an aquarium is), the Static
Fill Pressure is determined by 'elevation' of the water ).
Elevation difference from the seal to the top of the system
three feet = 1.3 psi
six feet = 2.6 psi
twenty feet = 8.6 psi Ouch! (are my numbers right? Anybody?)
The pressure on the seal will change with the pump running but, I
think, only slightly (negligibly?).
Though I haven't read anything that suggests a typical canister
can't be used on even the tallest aquarium that would fit in a room
with an 8ft ceiling, the shear numbers of newsgroup postings about
leaking canisters would encourage me to keep an extra set of seals on
hand. If your luck runs like mine, and you do keep an extra set on
hand, you'll probably never need them.
Best of luck with your setup,
Paul
--
FULL-ON Clown Loach antics were observed during the writing of this
posting. >> Stay informed about: filter head |
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External
Since: Oct 12, 2004
Posts: 30
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:21 pm
Post subject: Re: filter head [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Is it possible then to position the cannister above the inlet hose but below
the outlet - so no siphon ?
This pin hole - does it not leak?
"NetMax" <computeralias DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RIV7d.623$jj2.66479@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Regarding the canister, yes - in theory. The weight of the water in the
> intake hose = the weight in the return hose, and if both hose ends are
> underwater or close to the water surface, then there is very little
> 'head' for the pump to work against.
>
> In practise, this weight has to exert itself somewhere, and it will be on
> the gasket seals of the hose connectors and canister body. If you put
> the canister too far below the tank, seals may fail.
>
> Hose length also affects performance, simply because of the weight of the
> water to get started and the rolling resistance (through elbows etc), but
> in normal applications, it's not significant enough to worry about.
>
> Some people put a pinhole in the intake hose to cause the flow to break
> in the event of a canister seal failure causing your tank to start
> emptying itself on to your floor, ymmv.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
> "SkyCatcher" <brian.shannon DeleteThis @NOSPAMhotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:415ff1f5$0$79207$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> > Great explaination....
> >
> > so if I'm using an external canister filter as you describe, it doesn't
> > matter how low down below a tall aquarium I have the filter as the net
> > resultant head is zero (allowing of course for frictional losss in long
> run
> > of pipe) - correct?
> >
> > (almost) a happy man!, Sky.
> >
> >
> > "pausto" <pausto DeleteThis @XXXerols.com> wrote in message
> > news:415EA6B9.4C131ED3@XXXerols.com...
> > > SkyCatcher wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I'm trying to understand what exactly is meant by the head (of
> water) a
> > > > filter wuill work to.
> > > >
> > > > Is it the difference, in height, between the inlet & outlet
> relative to
> > each
> > > > other or is it the actual max height the filter will pump to even
> if the
> > > > actual outlet is lower (i.e. if it has to pump up and over the top
> of
> > the
> > > > aquarium and down the inside).
> > > >
> > > > I hope I've explained myself !!
> > > >
> > > > tia Sky.
> > >
> > > Sky,
> > > From info gathered while shopping for pumps, I got this impression;
> > >
> > > Measuring a system for the height that needs to be over come, is
> the
> > > vertical measurement from the surface of the body of water where the
> > > pump gets its water from, to the surface of the water where the pump
> > > pumps the water to. This assumes that the return line is submerged
> > > somewhere below the surface of the tank water (it doesn't matter how
> > > deep).
> > > For a canister filter, receiving and sending its water to the same
> > > body of water (same elevation) the height measurement would be zero.
> > > The loops over the edge don't affect this calculation, nor do the
> > > depth of the line below the water line. I'm guessing this is why
> > > canister filters, and power heads, are sold with single flow rates
> > > listed.
> > > For an open sump type filter, the measurement would be the vertical
> > > distance from the surface of the water in the pump compartment of the
> > > sump, to the surface of the water in the aquarium. Pumps for this
> > > purpose tend to be sold with a chart that indicates how much water
> > > volume will flow at various required heights.
> > > Some of these pumps have a single flow marked on the box. This is
> > > usually the free flow AKA max flow (flow at zero feet).
> > >
> > > For a return line that ends above the surface of the tank water,
> > > then the upper measurement would be to the opening of the return
> line,
> > > not the highest point of the return line. Unless, (unusual but...) if
> > > the diameter of the descending portion of none submerged return line
> > > is so large that air can get back up into it, breaking the descending
> > > syphon, then the upper measurement would be at that point where the
> > > water begins to 'spill' probably at the crest bend.
> > >
> > > Of course, none of this accounts for loss from hoses, fittings,
> > > valves, restricted filters and such.
> > >
> > > HT(rambling)H
> > > Paul
> >
> >
>
> >> Stay informed about: filter head |
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