HOWEDY liea,
"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshuler DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
news:JHdfb.486900$cF.170973@rwcrnsc53...
> Melanie L Chang wrote:
>
> > There are a number of breeds that appeal to me so little
You mean, dogs that are too small to beat in the
face with a shepherd's crook, melanie?
> > that I have a really hard time understanding why
> > ANYONE would want to have one,
You could overcome THAT obstacle by learnin
HOWET to pupperly beat a small dog in the face
with a shepherd's crook, but it may make them
aggressive towards animals when you're not
standin there ready to HURT them:
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN
SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer
is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER?
> > but I won't name them here because I don't see the
> > point in offending people with such a list.
Right. HOWER dog abusers ARE indeed, the sensitive sort...
> Thanks for putting into words what I was having trouble
> articulating.
RIGHT! Thank you liea, for accepting abusing animals
withHOWET being EMBARRASSED.
> When I first started hanging out here,
You mean, when your dog Cubbe first began turning
on you... cause you was CHOKING IT.
> there was a thread with a subject along the lines of
> "why do you hate small dogs."
You fear and hate all dogs, liea.
> With that, I realized that I'd always held a prejudice
> against small dogs, and, like any prejudice, my reasons
> were entirely unfounded.
Like the rest of your ideas and opinions abHOWET dogs.
> I'd always thought of the toy breeds as nasty, yappy
> things and had never met enough nicely behaved ones
> to form an opinion.
Perhaps that's on accHOWENT of their people thought
they was too small to HURT?
> The problem is that too many toy owners think their dogs
> don't need to learn good manners.
You're a MENTAL CASE, a LIAR, and a DOG ABUSER:
"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.
Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog just
last week, and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only
friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping
her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE
HER AGGRESSIVE:
From: Julia Altshuler (jaltshuler@comcast.net)
Subject: Cubbe report: Chief
Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST
Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie.
Jim has been running into them on his morning walks
with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing
reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.
Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any
other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever
seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.
I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy
with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on
the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one
that doesn't involve the companionship of her own
species. Jim's reports were encouraging.
Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate.
We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief
again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs
normally do.
Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my
amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard
and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention
to Chief, but there was no trouble even though
she and Chief were close to each other.
Both dogs seemed more interested that their
people were handing out treats (for good behaviors
like SITs).
Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2
dogs would like to chase them together. He did not
consult me about this hare brained scheme.
Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe
decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced fighter
so I don't know if attack is the right word. She was snarfing,
making growly noises, jumping on Chief, had her mouth on
Chief's neck (on his back, behind his ears) and basically not
looking friendly, but I think if she'd wanted to do real damage,
she would have, and Chief was fine, nary a hair out of place.
Naturally with us all right there, we were able to intervene in
seconds.
A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd
like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away
or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo
and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and
apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.)
Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people. Might
she have been guarding the balls Jim brought out? Or
was it the fact that we let our guard down for a few seconds
and she got scared of Chief when we all weren't practically
on top of her? Or did we push her too far by leaving her and
Chief together for too many minutes when a few seconds
would have been better for a first try? Or other theories?
Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with
Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting
Cubbe live a dogless existence?
--Lia
===================
"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With
Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To
Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got
Out In The Neighborhood Leashless From:
Julia F N Altshuler (d000634c@dc.seflin.org)
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST
Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time
in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got
her before she'd had any training and before we got the
electric fence to reinforce the physical one.
It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers
and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She
had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For
us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her.
Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It
had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim
finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a
hole.
For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets
daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect
recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those
recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard.
Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on
them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable
reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure
that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd
rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or
praise and let her go again.
So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm
a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for
some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind
criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on
what I should do now.
Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd
gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she
escaped straight through the front door and right in front of
our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the
battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the
wire, and the chase ensued.
We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.
Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar
now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to
come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I
could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front
door again so she could have another fun romp in the
neighborhood. I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's
escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the
door.
Later in the afternoon, she was much worse
about coming when called even from the backyard.
My specific questions:
How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows
when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?
She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her
when she's near certain windows inside. If I let her get
zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take
the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her
leash on? I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.
What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should
happen again?
Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this
I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because
she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and
scoldings when we first got her.
I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.
Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts
us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been
rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in
the mildest way, for not coming.
Is it time for that?
What might I look for to tell?
Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3
daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were
having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how
quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed
to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine
with the children; she always has been. Just as they were
getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.
Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a
snarl-snap.
I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her
know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened
at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't
realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub
Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the
submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all
was fine.
I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of
wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.
Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it
was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing
with Cubbe the escapee?
--Lia
===================
"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshuler DeleteThis @attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3DC4A3BD.645A4FC9@attbi.com...
> I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe
> that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble
> where there is none.
>
> Here's what happened last April the way I described it to
> a friend at the time:
>
> I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for
> doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and
> has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always
> at the door when I let Ellie in.
>
> She's barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is
> inside. She's never shown any real aggression. The other
> night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand.
>
> Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in
> first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could
> get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe
> barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door
> for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was
> trying to be friendly.
>
> Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
> scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when
> they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night,
> but Ellie was understandably scared.
>
> Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got
> Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that,
> even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite
> since Cubbe did mean to do it. I guess I should just learn
> from it and never let Cubbe greet someone like that again,
> but I'm horribly torn up.
>
> I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now
> the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even
> with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood.
>
> Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.
>
> Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the
> computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did
> bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing
> to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so
> it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the
> neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening,
> Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
> front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
> people to come to the door once she was out of the computer
> room was our neighbor Nicky.
>
> I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since we got her
> 4 years ago, has always liked her, petted her and asked to
> come on walks. Nick lifted his mask on the porch so I'd
> know who it was. Then I invited him into the hall to pet
> Cubbe.
>
> Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. Of course
> Jim was right there so no damage was done. Nick didn't
> even have to draw his hand away, and he didn't get scared.
> Nothing scares that boy.
>
> I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
> protective-aggressive when people have entered the house.
> Both times they've been people she knows and should like.
> She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have
> guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing
> thing or not.
>
> Comments please. Is this a major growing aggression
> problem?
>
> I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard.
> What do I do about it?
>
> I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over
> and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of
> her car, and then we walk in together.
>
> She'll still bark when they're in the house and then
> calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be
> doing something more to make sure this doesn't escalate?
> --Lia >> Stay informed about: What are your favorite and least favorite breeds? 
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