establishing and keeping alpha position

On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 17:15:08 -0700, jackie wrote:

> Hi All
> I have a 2,1/2 year-old black lab and was wondering how to establish and
> keep the alpha position over my dog?

Best article on dominance I've seen:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/yielding.html

Yielding
by Dick Russell

[...]

The ability to cause other animals to Yield space (ie, to move out of
the way) seems to be a matter of force of personality rather than one
of physical size or strength, though they sometimes go hand in hand.

Along about this same time, I was becoming disenchanted with the usual
dominance exercises that we dog trainers had been taught and were
teaching. Many (most) of them were, imo, more confrontational than was
needed, desired or even helpful. What we were doing was not the things
that happened in a stable group of dogs. Living with a stable pack of
dogs for any length of time, and observing them, will teach you that
appeasement is a much more prevalent mode of interaction than
confrontation. Former Speaker of the House of Representatives of the
United States, Sam Rayburn, D Tx, once said, "to get along, you go
along." Dogs figured this out long before people ever did. A dog's aim
is simply to get through the day as easily and with as liitle hassle as
possible. This is achieved by appeasement rather than confrontation.
Dog trainers, most at least, had missed this. They, along with
behaviorists and etiologists, had completely missed what was really
going on.

Case in point, as an example, the alpha roll. There is no such thing.
There is a cinnamon roll, there is a Parker House roll, there is a rock
and roll and there is a roll mighty river roll on, but there is no
alpha roll. What there is is a beta roll. The higher ranking dog,
except by his personality and presence, has nothing to do with this
behavior. It is physically initiated and performed by the lower ranking
animal as an act of appeasement. Dog trainers who have attempted alpha
roll techniques with dominant, ready to fight, dogs have learned and
have the scars to prove, that this is a really spiffy way to get
yourself bitten.

[...]

--
I am myself persuaded, on the basis of extensive study of the historical
evidence, that... the severity of each of the contractions - 1920-21;
1929-33, and 1937-38 - is directly attributable to acts of commission
and omission by the Reserve authorities and would not have occurred
under earlier monetary and banking arrangements.
- Milton Friedman
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position 

"jackie" <jackie.rumble.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in news:1175818508.751984.271030
@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

> Hi All
> I have a 2,1/2 year-old black lab and was wondering how to establish
> and keep the alpha position over my dog?

Caveat - I am not a trainer.
Suggestion - Go see one.

Unless your dog, by some miracle of spontaneous evolution, has figured out
how to feed and water himself, you already have the tools at hand to ensure
that your dog knows that you are the one in charge.

another suggestion - Do a Google search for NILIF. As I mentioned, I am not
a trainer, so I don't know which of those is the best version for you.

While it may not be right for you (it isn't right for me) without more
information, there is not much more that people can suggest to you.

--
Marcel and Moogli
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position 

In article <1175818508.751984.271030.DeleteThis@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"jackie" <jackie.rumble.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I have a 2,1/2 year-old black lab and was wondering how to establish
> and keep the alpha position over my dog?

Forget alpha, think leader. Training is the answer, simple but true.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position 

in thread news:janet-DE534F.07110306042007@news.individual.net: Janet Boss
<janet RemoveThis @bestfriendsdogobedience.com> whittled the following words:

> In article <1175818508.751984.271030 RemoveThis @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> "jackie" <jackie.rumble RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have a 2,1/2 year-old black lab and was wondering how to establish
>> and keep the alpha position over my dog?
>
> Forget alpha, think leader. Training is the answer, simple but true.
>

Alpha/leader = symantics
regardless - Training is the answer, simple but true.
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position 

On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 06:14:23 -0500, diddy wrote:

> in thread news:janet-DE534F.07110306042007@news.individual.net: Janet Boss
> <janet DeleteThis @bestfriendsdogobedience.com> whittled the following words:
>
>> Forget alpha, think leader. Training is the answer, simple but true.
>>
> Alpha/leader = symantics

Leadership is a matter of body language and attitude, not physical
strength.

--
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls
and looks like work.
- Thomas A. Edison
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position 

On Apr 6, 7:50 am, Jeff Dege <j....DeleteThis@jdege.visi.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 06:14:23 -0500, diddy wrote:
> > in threadnews:janet-DE534F.07110306042007@news.individual.net:Janet Boss
> > <j....DeleteThis@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> whittled the following words:
>
> >> Forget alpha, think leader. Training is the answer, simple but true.
>
> > Alpha/leader = symantics
>
> Leadership is a matter of body language and attitude, not physical
> strength.

Correct. And that's what being alpha is. Have you not seen cases where
the smallest and least physically powerful animal has achieved
dominance? I have. Heck, Cesar Millan has built a very profitable
career out of helping people who have allowed dogs, sometimes very
small dogs, to take total control of the household--and also helping
small, not very strong people to take control of their big, powerful
dogs that may outweigh them and are certainly more willing to throw
their whole physical strength into a struggle.

Alpha/leader=symantics.

Lis
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position 

in thread news:1175868868.670383.107060@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
"Lis" <lis.carey.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> whittled the following words:

> On Apr 6, 7:50 am, Jeff Dege <j....TakeThisOut@jdege.visi.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 06:14:23 -0500, diddy wrote:
>> > in threadnews:janet-DE534F.07110306042007@news.individual.net:Janet
>> > Boss <j....TakeThisOut@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> whittled the following
>> > words:
>>
>> >> Forget alpha, think leader. Training is the answer, simple but
>> >> true.
>>
>> > Alpha/leader = symantics
>>
>> Leadership is a matter of body language and attitude, not physical
>> strength.
>
> Correct. And that's what being alpha is. Have you not seen cases where
> the smallest and least physically powerful animal has achieved
> dominance? I have. Heck, Cesar Millan has built a very profitable
> career out of helping people who have allowed dogs, sometimes very
> small dogs, to take total control of the household--and also helping
> small, not very strong people to take control of their big, powerful
> dogs that may outweigh them and are certainly more willing to throw
> their whole physical strength into a struggle.
>
> Alpha/leader=symantics.
>
> Lis
>
>

Generally Alpha is a dirty word here.. so use leader instead and things
will go much smoother
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position 

"Jeff Dege" <jdege.DeleteThis@jdege.visi.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.04.06.11.50.10.151844@jdege.visi.com...
> On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 06:14:23 -0500, diddy wrote:
>
> > in thread news:janet-DE534F.07110306042007@news.individual.net: Janet
Boss
> > <janet.DeleteThis@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> whittled the following words:
> >
> >> Forget alpha, think leader. Training is the answer, simple but true.
> >>
> > Alpha/leader = symantics
>
> Leadership is a matter of body language and attitude, not physical
> strength.
>
> --
> Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls
> and looks like work.
> - Thomas A. Edison
================
I agree.
>
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position 

"diddy" <diddy.RemoveThis@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:Xns990A52746DF00danny@216.196.97.142...
> in thread news:pan.2007.04.06.11.50.10.151844@jdege.visi.com: Jeff Dege
> <jdege.RemoveThis@jdege.visi.com> whittled the following words:
>
> > On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 06:14:23 -0500, diddy wrote:
> >
> >> in thread news:janet-DE534F.07110306042007@news.individual.net: Janet
> >> Boss <janet.RemoveThis@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> whittled the following
> >> words:
> >>
> >>> Forget alpha, think leader. Training is the answer, simple but
> >>> true.
> >>>
> >> Alpha/leader = symantics
> >
> > Leadership is a matter of body language and attitude, not physical
> > strength.
> >
>
> That is true. And I still contend that Alpha is not necessarily strength.
> I had an alpha male. at 14 he was a doddering old man. I had to help him
> up and down the two steps on the back porch. Even at 14, he was still the
> Alpha male, even when strange dogs came in for foster/transport. He even
> withered a mature intact Great Dane with his body language, who could have
> easily killed him. But the doddering old man conveyed, this is MY
> territory, and these ARE the house rules. And i never saw a dog that
> didn't respect him, and comply. He commanded sensibility and respect
===============
The same thing happened to me. I had a Chow for 13 years that could hardly
stand up and at the end of his life, when I adopted a 5 year old Rottweiler,
dominant type female. I also had to help the Chow up and down stairs. I'll
never forget the Chow standing ground, trying to stand up with attitude,
teeter tottering, when he met the Rottweiler. The Rotty could have blown
him over, but respected the old Chow and always gave him his space.
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position 

In article <1175868868.670383.107060.DeleteThis@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Lis <lis.carey.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>Alpha/leader=symantics.

"Semantics." Anyway, meaning has, you know meaning, and I
gather what you're actually attempting to say is that it's a
distinction without a difference. I don't know about that,
either. Even synonymous words have different connotations
and can lead to different results.

One thing that interests me a lot is how we respond to
things going wrong, and how to recover from mistakes. I've
noticed that the stupid behavior that results from
misunderstanding "leader" is different from the stupid
behavior that results from misunderstanding "alpha," and I
think it's somewhat less likely to lead to the dog being put
down for defensive aggression. Your mileage, as always, may
vary.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore.DeleteThis@panix.com

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
 >> Stay informed about: establishing and keeping alpha position