Question regarding rescues

Brian Henderson wrote:

> What does everyone think about that? It isn't the money, it's the

Since you do seem to be complaining about the money, let me assure you
that rescues don't make money off the fees they charge. We charge $150
per dog, and know that it is inadequate to cover our bills. Last
quarter, we took in about 5100 dollars in adoption fees, and spent
12,000+ dollars on vet bills alone. How many shelters do you know that
do double hip replacement on their dogs (to the tune of $5,000)? And
rehabilitating the dog is pretty time and resource intensive as well.
Two of the 4 dogs that we took from Georgia turned out to be heartworm
positive. In the shelters, those two dogs would most likely have ended
up dead. We treated them and held them for the 6 plus weeks (an awful
lot of resources) before finding them good homes. Most shelters I know
do little by the way of temperament evaluation or behavior
modification/training. We do both. The list is just endless.

> fact that they expect to place dogs with behavioral problems (often
> requiring 2 dogs to be placed together at $600 a pop)

Currently, I know an all-breed rescue that has 5 pairs of dogs that need
to be placed as pairs. Trust me, they are most definitely not happy to
be put in that position. But, the fact remains that some dogs are so
severely attached to their pals that it would be inhumane to separate
them, and I know of at least one dog in a pair that refuses to eat
without the other dog around. These dogs are difficult to place (and
tie up an awful lot of resources), and the rescues I know bend over
backwards to accommodate potential adopters who are interested in these
dogs.

> for more than it
> would cost to get a well-behaved, well-socialized, registered puppy.

I know of no responsible breeder (and by that I mean someone who sells
on limited registration, uses proven breeding stock, does health and
genetic testing, etc.) that sells their puppies for so little money, and
these breeders are most certainly picky about who they place their dogs
with. Most of the "registered" puppies are anything but well bred, and
I don't know how many of them are what I would call either well behaved
(a function of being a puppy - by definition, they aren't) or well
socialized. And the registration means nothing more than that the dog
has a birth certificate. And the fact that you have a puppy means that
you will have costs associated with it, starting from the routine shots
and such, to the enormous amount of toys and chewies you will need.
Besides, there is a pretty large population of dog owners out there who
don't want to deal with a puppy.

> No wonder they can't find any homes for their dogs!

We don't seem to be having that much trouble. We get plenty of
applications, although not all of them pan out because the applicants
don't meet our standards for a 'responsible' dog owner. We've placed
well over 200 dogs in the last year, as far as I can tell, and have a
pretty good success rate.

Suja
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues 

"Jo Wolf" <wolfje.TakeThisOut@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:18569-3FDFF8D1-4@storefull-3215.bay.webtv.net...
> Because our rescue is a small-numbers one that works nationwide, unless
> we can find a vet that offers a discount, or a low cost neuter-spay
> clinic, we have to pay the going rate for everything.

Jo, do you pull from shelters where you can have them s/n, vaccinate & hw
test? I know rescuers who won't use those resources for one reason or
another but I often did just to get the discount, especially on mildly hw
positive dogs where I knew treatment costs were going to be up there due to
the location of the intended foster volunteer.

> We have our
> adoptors reimburse us for the routine vet costs... nothing more.

I have a feeling you don't even go that far because when you think about it,
some dogs would never be adopted if the rescue asked for reimbursement of
costs on the dog. I've had the question put to me several times before by
people saying they wanted to know how much we spent and asking if they could
just reimburse costs. One of the funnier ones was on a dog we had $1300 in.
I said sure you can reimburse us for the costs, here's what we spent. They
opted for the $200 set adoption fee instead :)

--
Tara
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues 

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:03:26 -0600, "adopt a rescue dog today"
<figmo DeleteThis @excite.com> wrote:

>If all you are worried about is the cost of adoption then wait for an ad in
>the paper that says "free to good home".

My, bitter are we?

>As far as comparing the "price" of a rescue to that of a puppy, it is rare
>that puppies are available in rescue. Second, the only difference between
>your "purebred AKC-papered puppy" and my rescues is you won't get the paper
>with dog. Of course, that point is certainly moot with you since you were
>planning on having a spay/neutered pet anyway. With an ILP on a rescue dog
>a person can do everything competitive except conformation.

It has nothing to do with 'cost', it has to do with adoption. You do
want to adopt these dogs out, right? I'm certainly not telling you
what to do, I've done dog and cat rescue over the years and know the
problems and expenses of doing rescue. Don't get me wrong, it's a
hard job and I certainly respect those brave souls who are willing to
dedicate their time and energy and money to the cause.

However, you have to realize how most people are going to look at it.
A dog with behavioral problems, often a mixed breed, when compared to
a puppy (or even older dog) that is problem free, purebred, etc. you
have to realize that most, or almost all people are going to choose
the purebred at the same cost. It might not be fair, the rescue dogs
are, in many cases, even more loving and caring because of the
mistreatment in their past, but that's not how the majority of people
are going to see it.

And you're going to end up with dogs that you can't adopt.
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues 

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:36:31 GMT, Brian Henderson
<BrianL.Henderson.TakeThisOut@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:03:26 -0600, "adopt a rescue dog today"
><figmo.TakeThisOut@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>If all you are worried about is the cost of adoption then wait for an ad in
>>the paper that says "free to good home".
>
>My, bitter are we?
>
>>As far as comparing the "price" of a rescue to that of a puppy, it is rare
>>that puppies are available in rescue. Second, the only difference between
>>your "purebred AKC-papered puppy" and my rescues is you won't get the paper
>>with dog. Of course, that point is certainly moot with you since you were
>>planning on having a spay/neutered pet anyway. With an ILP on a rescue dog
>>a person can do everything competitive except conformation.
>
>It has nothing to do with 'cost', it has to do with adoption. You do
>want to adopt these dogs out, right? I'm certainly not telling you
>what to do, I've done dog and cat rescue over the years and know the
>problems and expenses of doing rescue. Don't get me wrong, it's a
>hard job and I certainly respect those brave souls who are willing to
>dedicate their time and energy and money to the cause.
>
>However, you have to realize how most people are going to look at it.
>A dog with behavioral problems, often a mixed breed, when compared to
>a puppy (or even older dog) that is problem free, purebred, etc. you
>have to realize that most, or almost all people are going to choose
>the purebred at the same cost. It might not be fair, the rescue dogs
>are, in many cases, even more loving and caring because of the
>mistreatment in their past, but that's not how the majority of people
>are going to see it.

1) You seem to be assuming that every rescue dog has behavioral
problems, which is not true. 2) What do you think purebred rescue
groups have for adoption, if not purebred dogs? 3) It has everything
to do with cost. How do you suppose rescue groups can stay afloat if
they don't charge an adoption fee that covers most of the costs
incurred for most of the dogs they take? 4) Breed rescue groups
normally charge anything from $125 to $300 or so for their dogs.
Adopters get a dog that is UTD on vaccinations, spayed or neutered,
ofen microchipped, often housebroken, usually full grown so that size
and temperament are known, etc. The dog may or may not have obedience
training. Rescue groups almost always offer assistance during the
adjustment period, and good ones provide whatever assistance they for
the lifetime of the dog. People who choose to adopt from rescue
groups know they're getting a bargain.

When adoptions are slow, it's generally not because adoption fees are
too high.

Sally Hennessey
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues 

"sighthounds etc." <greypighound RemoveThis @ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:7mf3uvo39mfs5v8gga4q0kuco0v8h002bv@4ax.com...
>
> You might want to check into that. Anyone we've ever consulted about
> this says that an adoption fee is not tax deductible. An 'adoption
> donation' may be, but the value of the dog has to be subtracted -
> -which means the vet and other expenses.

We were told by the IRS that as long as our acceptance of money was defined
as a "donation" that the money was deductible for the donor. So we changed
our contract & the wording on the website to say "adoption donation" rather
than "fee."

--
Tara
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues 

Brian Henderson <BrianL.Henderson.RemoveThis@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message news:<1ai2uvovp9s0vvgqvcv8gpbv72bbtjmlfo.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:03:26 -0600, "adopt a rescue dog today"
> <figmo.RemoveThis@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >If all you are worried about is the cost of adoption then wait for an ad in
> >the paper that says "free to good home".
>
> My, bitter are we?

I don't think it's bitter, so much as realistic. There's always a
question of committment for something that comes free. Like most
rescues, the $175 adoption fee we charge doesn't cover the average
$460 cost of veterinary care per dog in our program. Sure, we could
do more fundraising and underwrite all costs in order to give the dogs
away free, but we don't think that's in the best interest of the dogs.
German Shepherds are large hungry dogs and need regular vet care, so
the annual cost of maintaining a healthy GSD is easily $1000/year. If
someone is hesitant to pay $175 to acquire the dog, I would fear that
they might be hesitant to provide other costly care when needed.
We're not interested in simply placing as many dogs as possible. The
best possible homes are what we're looking for. That doesn't have
anything to do with their income levels, but committment and ability
to care for the dog are non-negotiable requirements.

Lynn K.

Lynn K.
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues 

bb3 wrote:
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
> Also, our adoption fee is $125. 100% of that is tax deductible due to
> our 501 (c)(3) status making your total cost $0. Compare that to a
> shelter, dumbass.
>
Even for a 501(c)3, if someone gets a product (i.e., the dog)
for paying the $125 dollar adoption fee, then the fee may
*not* be tax deductable.


--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues 

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:48:03 -0500, sighthounds etc.
<greypighound DeleteThis @ncweb.com> wrote:

>Oddly enough, that is not what the IRS told us. It's my understanding
>from the IRS and a number of tax attorneys that the entire amount of a
>donation is not deductible when something is received in return for
>the donation. The IRS told us that the 'adoption donation' may be
>considered a donation if it is entirely voluntary, but in that case we
>could not ask for a specific amount. Since we will not adopt dogs for
>free, it's not a voluntary donation.

That is true, although there is some leeway. You can receive
something for your donation (ie. you can donate to PBS and receive a
book or something) but you cannot charge a specific fee for a product
and still have it be tax-deductable. This very well might vary from
place to place, depending on state and local tax laws, but I wouldn't
think it would fly federally.

But of course, check with your tax advisor.
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues 

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:49:53 -0500, sighthounds etc.
<greypighound.RemoveThis@ncweb.com> wrote:

>1) You seem to be assuming that every rescue dog has behavioral
>problems, which is not true.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm stating that THIS PARTICULAR RESCUE
THAT I POSTED ABOUT has a huge selection of self-described
special-needs dogs. Stop taking everything personally.

>2) What do you think purebred rescue
>groups have for adoption, if not purebred dogs?

According to their website, a whole lot of mixes. It's a chihuahua
rescue but about 1/2 of the dogs are mixed chihuahua breeds.
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues 

On 18 Dec 2003 15:08:40 -0800, javagsd RemoveThis @yahoo.com (Lynn K.) wrote:

>I don't think it's bitter, so much as realistic. There's always a
>question of committment for something that comes free. Like most
>rescues, the $175 adoption fee we charge doesn't cover the average
>$460 cost of veterinary care per dog in our program. Sure, we could
>do more fundraising and underwrite all costs in order to give the dogs
>away free, but we don't think that's in the best interest of the dogs.

It's not a matter of giving the dogs away free, it's a matter of
finding loving homes, period. Yes, doing rescue is an expensive
business. Nobody is arguing that point. However, if it costs $460 to
get a dog in 'rescuable' shape and you try charging a $460 adoption
fee (or donation as the case may be), you're not going to be adopting
many dogs. There needs to be a balance between what your prospective
adopter is willing to spend in adoption fees and what you can offset
through fundraising.

> German Shepherds are large hungry dogs and need regular vet care, so
>the annual cost of maintaining a healthy GSD is easily $1000/year. If
>someone is hesitant to pay $175 to acquire the dog, I would fear that
>they might be hesitant to provide other costly care when needed.
>We're not interested in simply placing as many dogs as possible. The
>best possible homes are what we're looking for. That doesn't have
>anything to do with their income levels, but committment and ability
>to care for the dog are non-negotiable requirements.

Well, it wasn't a matter of $175, it was a matter of the rescue trying
to charge *MORE* than you can buy a purebred puppy (or older dog) for.
Like it or not, a rescue is a 'business'. You have to keep dogs going
out because we all know more are always going to be coming in. That
$460 dog that you can't adopt because no one is willing to pay $300
for is going to keep eating and keep requiring medical care and will
soon be a $1000 dog that you still can't move out to a family for
$300. There have to be tradeoffs unfortunately. I don't think $175
is unreasonable at all, assuming good healthy dogs and the equivalent
purchase price in the area is above that. You'll find a lot of loving
dog owners who can't afford a $300 pedigreed puppy who are perfectly
happy with a $175 rescue dog. You're not going to find many people
who would choose a $300 rescue dog over a $250 pedigreed puppy though,
that was the original point that most people seem to have lost because
they're hopping up and down and being defensive.
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues 

BRian,

I guess I don't know what your point is.

1. Yes, anyone can go into any shelter in the world and come out with a
purebred dog, any day of the week, for some mimimal fee. So what?

2. Yes, Someone can go to their local shelter and say, "I want to adopt a
Shetland Sheepdog, and I will wait until one comes in. They also will pay
some minimal fee. So what?

3. You seem overly concerned that PB rescues charge too much and therefore
will be stuck with hard to place dogs, special needs dogs, old dogs, etc.
What difference does it make to you how we manage our efforts? I don't
recall you being a member of the parent organization, on the rescue
committee, or fostering any dogs.

4. Nobody is bitter here. You questioned the way rescue operates without
offering any kind of alternative. What kind of replies did you expect?
Consensus to your statement?

5. We do what we do because as participants in the fancy we feel we have
some responsibility to the breeds we are promoting through our
participation. As individuals you will find that most of us are only
interested in a specific breed or two. I personally have no interest in any
breed that is a toy or a terrier. There are others who have no interest in
working or sporting dogs. That doesn't make anyone unworthy or bad, it just
means they have defined the focus of their resources.

6. There are MILLIONS of dogs that need homes. Some folks are happy to
have any old mutt. Bless their hearts!! There are MILLIONS of mutts that
will make good pets. They need homes, too. SOME folks want a specific
breed of dog. They may know that there are unwanted labs, goldens, GSP and
airedales available that have been discarded by others. Those folks call
us. The people who call can either pay the freight or not. If they can't
afford the modest fee, how will they be able to afford food and medical
care?

7. There are a lot of animal people who run their decisions on emotion
rather than reality. We get their discards everyday. Most long term rescue
folks operate out of compassion for the animals, not from worrying about
YOUR approval or acceptance. I neither need your approval nor solicit your
admiration.

8. Rescue is not in competition with shelters, breeders or other rescue
organizations.

9. Have a merry christmas and a healthy new year.

chuck petterson
rescue bus driver
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues 

>You're not going to find many people
>who would choose a $300 rescue dog over a $250 pedigreed puppy though,
>that was the original point that most people seem to have lost because
>they're hopping up and down and being defensive.

And we keep trying to tell you that you CAN NOT find a pedigreed puppy with
REAL papers who has been well bred and reasonably healthy for anywhere near
$250.

-sunny
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues 

smithandwest wrote:

> issues, and you'd be surprised the number of people around here that prefer
> to rescue a dog, even a high mix, than buy from a breeder.

I would most certainly fit that description. For one thing, I don't
really want to deal with a puppy. If I were to get a puppy from a
breeder, you better believe that I'm going to do my due diligence and
find a breeder who is ethical and responsible, not one who is pumping
out puppies to make a buck, to teach kids about the 'miracle of birth'
or any other equally bad reasons for breeding, and is therefore adding
to the burdon the rescues face. Near as I can tell, the ethical,
responsible breeders don't advertise in the papers and they sure as hell
don't give their dogs away to just anyone who shows interest. They also
would most likely not be selling their pups for as little as $250.

Suja
 >> Stay informed about: Question regarding rescues