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Lynne

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Since: Oct 04, 2006
Posts: 86



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:51 pm
Post subject: how to keep dog off counters and table tops
Archived from groups: rec>pets>dogs>behavior (more info?)

My dog, Roxy, is a ~13 month old mix breed (beagle/hound?). She is a
WONDERFUL dog who I adore and who listens very well, except in the
kitchen. She puts her feet and snout on the counters and table tops
CONSTANTLY. I tell her "off" and she gets off, then I tell her "good
off" and then within a few minutes, she is back at it. It doesn't
matter if we are sitting at the table or not. She's brazen! I've
started putting her out on the deck during meals, where she can see us
eating (and she clearly wants to get in), but when we are done and I
bring her in after the table is cleared, she's right back at it. If
there is anything on the counters (even though we push it out of her
reach), she's on those, too.

Roxy responds very well to positive reinforcement in every area of
training but this one. She used to jump on me all the time for
attention, but when I got tired of that, I started making her sit
before I would give her affection. She has learned that very well. I
am consistent with what I'm doing, but it's consistently not working
for me in the kitchen, so obviously I'm doing something wrong.
Suggestions?

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pfoley

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Since: May 24, 2007
Posts: 807



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:20 pm
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Lynne" <unmonitored.email RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1160178660.474351.283960@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> My dog, Roxy, is a ~13 month old mix breed (beagle/hound?). She is a
> WONDERFUL dog who I adore and who listens very well, except in the
> kitchen. She puts her feet and snout on the counters and table tops
> CONSTANTLY. I tell her "off" and she gets off, then I tell her "good
> off" and then within a few minutes, she is back at it. It doesn't
> matter if we are sitting at the table or not. She's brazen! I've
> started putting her out on the deck during meals, where she can see us
> eating (and she clearly wants to get in), but when we are done and I
> bring her in after the table is cleared, she's right back at it. If
> there is anything on the counters (even though we push it out of her
> reach), she's on those, too.
>
> Roxy responds very well to positive reinforcement in every area of
> training but this one. She used to jump on me all the time for
> attention, but when I got tired of that, I started making her sit
> before I would give her affection. She has learned that very well. I
> am consistent with what I'm doing, but it's consistently not working
> for me in the kitchen, so obviously I'm doing something wrong.
> Suggestions?
=============
This is just a suggestion, and I don't know if it would even work. I have
never had a counter surfer or a dog that bothered me while in the kitchen.
I guess first, I would never allow the dog in the kitchen while eating a
meal at the table; I would put the dog outside or command the dog to leave
the room at that time. My dog will leave the room and lie down in another
room while we eat, but as soon as we finish eating she comes in for a small
leftover snack, that I put in her dog dish. Another thought would be, when
you have finished eating your meal, and maybe even after you have cleaned up
the kitchen, put a leash on your dog and bring the dog into the kitchen.
Maybe you could tie the leash around your waist to free up your hands. When
the dog attempts to jump onto the counter or table, step on the leash or
pull on the leash to bring the dog down and say the "dog's name" and "off"
in a firm tone.
Since I trained my dogs to leave the room when I eat, I never have to tell
them to leave; they just always do it. I never ever hand a piece of food to
my dog while I am eating at the table; I always put it in her dish and only
after we have all completed our meal; this keeps her from begging at the
table. The leash idea is just an idea to try out; I don't know if it would
work or not. The dog might get tired of being pulled down off the table
and counter and eventually stop doing it. If you have to leave your kitchen
for awhile and the dog is inside, you could always pick up a couple of baby
gates at yard sales and temporarily lean them against your kitchen doorways
to keep the dog out while you are gone.
>

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Lynne

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Since: Oct 04, 2006
Posts: 86



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:10 pm
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> On 7 Oct 2006 09:27:18 -0700, "Lynne" <unmonitored.email.RemoveThis@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> []
> >So, Handsome Jack, got any advice for me, or did Diddy get it right?
>
> Lynne, there is no one "right" or "wrong" way to train a dog.
>
> There are only ways that work, and ways that don't work.
>
> Did Diddy's advice solve your problem?
>
> I.e., did it work
>
> >I was hoping to hear from those of you who are not average dog owners.
>
> You won't always hear from everyone here, Lynne. But you'll almost
> always get at least some help with your "problem."
>
> Most basic behavior "problems" are avoided altogether by just not
> letting your dog do certain things (in much the same way that you
> wouldn't let your toddler do certain things), providing your dog with
> sufficient exercise (both mental and physical), carefully managing
> your dog's environs (much like you would for your toddler), and using
> a little common sense.
>
> Formal training will teach *you* how to prevent your dog from surfing
> the counters and tables. E.g., your dog will learn the "down,"
> "settle," and "off" commands (she can't surf or bother you at the
> table if she's in an extended "down" over in the corner, can she?),
> which should also eventually eliminate counter surfing - provided that
> *you* are consistent, and quickly (timing is everything!) correct her
> each and every time she disobeys a command.
>
> Tip: Avoiding bad behavior is a lot easier than curing it.
>
> >On that, while I love my dog she is well (enough) behaved for
> >the most part, we are going to go do some formal training.
>
> Formal training is always a very good idea. And whatever she already
> knows needs to be routinely reinforced.
>
> >I decided to
> >wait to adopt a dog until Roxy is 100% reliable. I'd put her at 80%
> >overall right now.
>
> 80% of what?
>
> >Besides, it'll be fun!
>
> Training should always be fun, not only for the trainer, but for the
> dog.
>
> >How do I find trainers
> >beyond the typical PetSmart etc. type classes, IOW good trainers?
>
> Your vet can often aim you in the right direction. Other dog owners
> are often a good referral source. Rescue organizations, too, can help
> you find a trainer that meets your needs.
>
> Note: There are many kinds of dog training, so it pays to do your due
> diligence before you even start to look for a particular kind of
> trainer. There's traditional training (collar and leash), clicker
> training, lure and reward training (using food, etc.), e-collar
> training, etc. All the different kinds of training make heavy use of
> positive reinforcement. Some kinds of training also use positive
> punishment, negative punishment, negative reinforcement, etc., and to
> varying degrees.
>
> And it behooves you to learn what these terms mean (if you don't
> already know), and how they're used in the training of dogs, before
> you settle on a method of training and/or a trainer that will meet
> *your* particular needs.
>
> Anyway, good luck to you and your dog!
>
> --
> Handsome Jack Morrison
>
> Coming soon, to a city near you:
> 'Unclean' guide dog banned by Muslim cab driver.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_artic...id=4089
> Muslim cab drivers are refusing taxi service to passengers carrying alcohol.
> http://www.startribune.com/462/story/709262.html
>
> Trust me - you'll want to see (and hear!) this movie trailer:
> http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/300/trailer1/large.html
>
> The War and Its Critics:
> http://victordavishanson.pajamasmedia.com/2006/10/03/
>
> Two books that every American (and Canadian) should read:
>
> 1) The Rage and The Pride, by Orianna Fallaci
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?J13521A6D
> 2) The Force of Reason, by Orianna Fallaci
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?T42552A6D
>
> While they still can.

Thanks, Handsome!
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Handsome Jack Morrison

External


Since: Jun 08, 2006
Posts: 1159



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:25 pm
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 7 Oct 2006 09:27:18 -0700, "Lynne" <unmonitored.email.DeleteThis@gmail.com>
wrote:

[]
>So, Handsome Jack, got any advice for me, or did Diddy get it right?

Lynne, there is no one "right" or "wrong" way to train a dog.

There are only ways that work, and ways that don't work.

Did Diddy's advice solve your problem?

I.e., did it work

>I was hoping to hear from those of you who are not average dog owners.

You won't always hear from everyone here, Lynne. But you'll almost
always get at least some help with your "problem."

Most basic behavior "problems" are avoided altogether by just not
letting your dog do certain things (in much the same way that you
wouldn't let your toddler do certain things), providing your dog with
sufficient exercise (both mental and physical), carefully managing
your dog's environs (much like you would for your toddler), and using
a little common sense.

Formal training will teach *you* how to prevent your dog from surfing
the counters and tables. E.g., your dog will learn the "down,"
"settle," and "off" commands (she can't surf or bother you at the
table if she's in an extended "down" over in the corner, can she?),
which should also eventually eliminate counter surfing - provided that
*you* are consistent, and quickly (timing is everything!) correct her
each and every time she disobeys a command.

Tip: Avoiding bad behavior is a lot easier than curing it.

>On that, while I love my dog she is well (enough) behaved for
>the most part, we are going to go do some formal training.

Formal training is always a very good idea. And whatever she already
knows needs to be routinely reinforced.

>I decided to
>wait to adopt a dog until Roxy is 100% reliable. I'd put her at 80%
>overall right now.

80% of what?

>Besides, it'll be fun!

Training should always be fun, not only for the trainer, but for the
dog.

>How do I find trainers
>beyond the typical PetSmart etc. type classes, IOW good trainers?

Your vet can often aim you in the right direction. Other dog owners
are often a good referral source. Rescue organizations, too, can help
you find a trainer that meets your needs.

Note: There are many kinds of dog training, so it pays to do your due
diligence before you even start to look for a particular kind of
trainer. There's traditional training (collar and leash), clicker
training, lure and reward training (using food, etc.), e-collar
training, etc. All the different kinds of training make heavy use of
positive reinforcement. Some kinds of training also use positive
punishment, negative punishment, negative reinforcement, etc., and to
varying degrees.

And it behooves you to learn what these terms mean (if you don't
already know), and how they're used in the training of dogs, before
you settle on a method of training and/or a trainer that will meet
*your* particular needs.

Anyway, good luck to you and your dog!

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

Coming soon, to a city near you:
'Unclean' guide dog banned by Muslim cab driver.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_artic...id=4089
Muslim cab drivers are refusing taxi service to passengers carrying alcohol.
http://www.startribune.com/462/story/709262.html

Trust me - you'll want to see (and hear!) this movie trailer:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/300/trailer1/large.html

The War and Its Critics:
http://victordavishanson.pajamasmedia.com/2006/10/03/

Two books that every American (and Canadian) should read:

1) The Rage and The Pride, by Orianna Fallaci
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J13521A6D
2) The Force of Reason, by Orianna Fallaci
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T42552A6D

While they still can.
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Paula

External


Since: Jul 26, 2004
Posts: 1469



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:10 am
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 6 Oct 2006 16:51:00 -0700, "Lynne" <unmonitored.email.DeleteThis@gmail.com>
wrote:

>My dog, Roxy, is a ~13 month old mix breed (beagle/hound?). She is a
>WONDERFUL dog who I adore and who listens very well, except in the
>kitchen. She puts her feet and snout on the counters and table tops
>CONSTANTLY. I tell her "off" and she gets off, then I tell her "good
>off" and then within a few minutes, she is back at it. It doesn't
>matter if we are sitting at the table or not. She's brazen! I've
>started putting her out on the deck during meals, where she can see us
>eating (and she clearly wants to get in), but when we are done and I
>bring her in after the table is cleared, she's right back at it. If
>there is anything on the counters (even though we push it out of her
>reach), she's on those, too.

We got our dogs to not beg at the table by having them sit away from
the table. Periodically, I toss a treat from the table way over to
the other end of the room where they are sitting. If they sneak over
toward the table, I am sure to toss the treat to the other side of the
room so the one who inched closer doesn't get the treat. Since you
only have one dog, that might not be as reinforcing, but you can use
the same general concept. Tell Roxy to sit away from the table. Toss
treats periodically her way while telling her "good sit." Never ever
feed her anything while she is near the table or a counter top.

You also have to back things up a step now that Roxy gets that she
needs to get off when you tell her to. Watch for the signs that she
is going to jump up and tell her "no" then. You need to give her the
"don't even think about it" message or else it can be perceived as a
game of the dog jumps up and down, only realizing that the down part
gets him a reward, not that there was anything wrong with the up part
in the first place. Worse, some dogs come to think of jumping up as a
good thing because then they can get your attention and praise for
jumping down afterward.

I am currently working on a dog who barks more than I like to hear him
bark. He is good at shutting up when I tell him to knock it off or
that's enough, so now we are working on giving him the message that he
shouldn't even start. When he starts toward the fence where the evil
chihuahua lives, we tell him, "No, Sammie!" because once he gets
there, we know he's gonna go on a barkfest. When he runs out into the
hallway when the doorbell rings, I tell him, "Get your butt back in
here" and give him belly rubs when he runs back to me instead of off
into the hall. He's not allowed to bark at the doorbell any more
because while the German Shepherds do a warning bark and leave it at
that, he goes crazy. He's learning it and dealing with it. You can
use the same principles with Roxy and the counters. Add to that not
leaving anything on the counters or table that will be a great
temptation to her. If nothing works, there are electronic fences that
can block off zones of your house. A friend has one, but she swears
that innotek's version is not very good while the petsafe one works
much better and more safely, in case you do go that route.

Let us know how it goes!

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
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Lynne

External


Since: Oct 04, 2006
Posts: 86



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:50 am
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Paula wrote:

> We got our dogs to not beg at the table by having them sit away from
> the table. Periodically, I toss a treat from the table way over to
> the other end of the room where they are sitting. If they sneak over
> toward the table, I am sure to toss the treat to the other side of the
> room so the one who inched closer doesn't get the treat. Since you
> only have one dog, that might not be as reinforcing, but you can use
> the same general concept. Tell Roxy to sit away from the table. Toss
> treats periodically her way while telling her "good sit." Never ever
> feed her anything while she is near the table or a counter top.
>
> You also have to back things up a step now that Roxy gets that she
> needs to get off when you tell her to. Watch for the signs that she
> is going to jump up and tell her "no" then. You need to give her the
> "don't even think about it" message or else it can be perceived as a
> game of the dog jumps up and down, only realizing that the down part
> gets him a reward, not that there was anything wrong with the up part
> in the first place. Worse, some dogs come to think of jumping up as a
> good thing because then they can get your attention and praise for
> jumping down afterward.
>
> I am currently working on a dog who barks more than I like to hear him
> bark. He is good at shutting up when I tell him to knock it off or
> that's enough, so now we are working on giving him the message that he
> shouldn't even start. When he starts toward the fence where the evil
> chihuahua lives, we tell him, "No, Sammie!" because once he gets
> there, we know he's gonna go on a barkfest. When he runs out into the
> hallway when the doorbell rings, I tell him, "Get your butt back in
> here" and give him belly rubs when he runs back to me instead of off
> into the hall. He's not allowed to bark at the doorbell any more
> because while the German Shepherds do a warning bark and leave it at
> that, he goes crazy. He's learning it and dealing with it. You can
> use the same principles with Roxy and the counters. Add to that not
> leaving anything on the counters or table that will be a great
> temptation to her. If nothing works, there are electronic fences that
> can block off zones of your house. A friend has one, but she swears
> that innotek's version is not very good while the petsafe one works
> much better and more safely, in case you do go that route.
>
> Let us know how it goes!
>
> --
> Paula
> "Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
> so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

Oooh, thank you, Paula. You've given me some great ideas! I'll let
y'all know how it goes, but I can already tell it's going to take some
time. We do need to back up in our training a bit and work on some
basics so that she is more reliable. It wasn't until I started looking
to adopt a second dog that I started to realize that Roxy needs some
more training first. She brings me so much joy that I have been a
little more lax with her than I have been with my other dogs. My other
dogs were Shelties, too, and they were very easy to train.
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BlackVomit

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Since: Aug 03, 2006
Posts: 54



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:24 am
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On 7 Oct 2006 10:14:43 -0700,
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory.DeleteThis@hotmail.com
wrote:

>HOWEDY diddler you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin
>punk thug coward animal murderin child abusin active
>acute chronic long term incurable mental case,

SHUT UP PERVERT!
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Lynne

External


Since: Oct 04, 2006
Posts: 86



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:07 pm
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

BlackVomit wrote:
> On 7 Oct 2006 10:14:43 -0700,
> Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory RemoveThis @hotmail.com
> wrote:
>
> >HOWEDY diddler you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin
> >punk thug coward animal murderin child abusin active
> >acute chronic long term incurable mental case,
>
> SHUT UP PERVERT!

If the guy would just write sane, coherent responses without all the
insults, cutting and pasting, I'd be interested to read what he had to
say. I suspect his mama never taught him that you catch more flies
with honey than with vinegar.
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Lynne

External


Since: Oct 04, 2006
Posts: 86



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:47 am
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Judy wrote:
> "Lynne" <unmonitored.email RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1160182647.772309.316340@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > I would do the mousetrap thing now that I understand, but I have cats
> > and I'm afraid of them getting hurt. I will figure out what I can
> > distract her with that she hates the most and go with it.
>
> So, it's all right with you if the cats are on the counter?
>
> Judy

No. They are not allowed on the counters or table. The kitten has not
discovered them yet, but my 3 year old cat does go up there sometimes.
As soon as he hears me coming, he jumps off. Cats are not as trainable
as dogs... I won't risk injury to my cats with a mousetrap, though. Or
my dog, for that matter.

What's strange is that my dog has never been rewarded for counter or
table surfing. Because I do have cats, we NEVER leave food out
unattended. When there is food on the counter, it's pushed out of
Roxy's reach. Yet she is always trying! We also don't give her food
when we are sitting at the table eating. I guess that beagle nose
makes checking things out irresistible? We're working on it, and I'm
also enrolling in a training class, which I know will help.

I like the duct tape idea. Around here we call it "Kentucky chrome".
It's applications never cease to amuse me. Don't try it for hair
removal though. It doesn't work as well as wax and it HURTS. ;-)
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Suja

External


Since: Dec 15, 2005
Posts: 601



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:03 am
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"Lynne" <unmonitored.email.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message:

> I would do the mousetrap thing now that I understand, but I have cats
> and I'm afraid of them getting hurt.

The other thing you could do with the mousetrap is to leave it upside down.
The probability of someone getting hurt is lower still.

Something else to try. Duct tape. Long strips, attached at both ends to
make a loop (unless they make them with both sides sticky, which I don't
think they do). Put it down around the edges of the counter, so that when
the dog jumps up, her feet end up sticking to the duct tape. Shouldn't take
very many repetitions; might even get the cats off the counter.

Suja
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Judy

External


Since: Jan 03, 2006
Posts: 849



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:06 am
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Lynne" <unmonitored.email.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1160182647.772309.316340@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I would do the mousetrap thing now that I understand, but I have cats
> and I'm afraid of them getting hurt. I will figure out what I can
> distract her with that she hates the most and go with it.

So, it's all right with you if the cats are on the counter?

Judy
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Lynne

External


Since: Oct 04, 2006
Posts: 86



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:52 pm
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>pets>dogs>breeds, others (more info?)

well I'll be... tonight's dinner just went VERY well. I put Roxy in a
down/stay in another room and she "only" got up and headed toward the
kitchen three times. On the third time, she laid down and waited for
me to call her. And it was a good long time (for a dog who hasn't had
too many tough expectations put on her). I'm so excited! Obviously we
have some work to do, but she was so intent on figuring out what I
wanted and then doing it. And it was all a very positive experience.
Roxy knows hand signals, so I just used a very quiet voice to tell her
what I wanted and she *knew* what to do.

I'm quite certain that it's Roxy's owner who needs training, not so
much Roxy. I just haven't been clear or consistent.

I love this dog!
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unsurreality_2005

External


Since: May 20, 2005
Posts: 124



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:16 pm
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>pets>dogs>behavior (more info?)

Lynne wrote:
> BlackVomit wrote:
> > On 7 Oct 2006 10:14:43 -0700,
> > Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory.DeleteThis@hotmail.com
> > wrote:
> >
> > >HOWEDY diddler you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin
> > >punk thug coward animal murderin child abusin active
> > >acute chronic long term incurable mental case,
> >
> > SHUT UP PERVERT!
>
> If the guy would just write sane, coherent responses without all the
> insults, cutting and pasting, I'd be interested to read what he had to
> say. I suspect his mama never taught him that you catch more flies
> with honey than with vinegar.

Well that's my whole point. Howe has done some terrible things yet
calls all of us dog abusers, child abusers, and mental cases. I'm not
going to just ignore him. It's time we all step up and battle his
lies.

I've never abused a dog. I've never abused a child. I'm certainly not
a mental case. And I'm sick of being called these lies.

Either we ignore this person or do something about it. I vote for the
latter.

Everyone else - if you want to run away, more power to ya!

I'm just not running away...
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missmoushoes

External


Since: Oct 08, 2006
Posts: 7



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:44 pm
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>pets>dogs>breeds, others (more info?)

Lynne wrote:
> well I'll be... tonight's dinner just went VERY well. I put Roxy in a
> down/stay in another room and she "only" got up and headed toward the
> kitchen three times. On the third time, she laid down and waited for
> me to call her. And it was a good long time (for a dog who hasn't had
> too many tough expectations put on her). I'm so excited! Obviously we
> have some work to do, but she was so intent on figuring out what I
> wanted and then doing it. And it was all a very positive experience.
> Roxy knows hand signals, so I just used a very quiet voice to tell her
> what I wanted and she *knew* what to do.
>
> I'm quite certain that it's Roxy's owner who needs training, not so
> much Roxy. I just haven't been clear or consistent.
>
> I love this dog!

Good on you Lynne! Keep it up. Takes time.
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jotnaringin

External


Since: Jul 08, 2006
Posts: 12



(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:12 pm
Post subject: Re: how to keep dog off counters and table tops [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>pets>dogs>behavior (more info?)

unsurreality_2005 RemoveThis @yahoo.com wrote:
<snip>
> Lynne wrote:
> > BlackVomit wrote:
> > > On 7 Oct 2006 10:14:43 -0700,
> > > Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory RemoveThis @hotmail.com
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >HOWEDY diddler you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin
> > > >punk thug coward animal murderin child abusin active
> > > >acute chronic long term incurable mental case,
> > >
> > > SHUT UP PERVERT!
> >
> > If the guy would just write sane, coherent responses without all the
> > insults, cutting and pasting, I'd be interested to read what he had to
> > say. I suspect his mama never taught him that you catch more flies
> > with honey than with vinegar.
>
<snip>
> Well that's my whole point. Howe has done some terrible things yet
> calls all of us dog abusers, child abusers, and mental cases. I'm not
> going to just ignore him. It's time we all step up and battle his
> lies.

It would be responsible and moral of people to do so.

> I've never abused a dog. I've never abused a child. I'm certainly not
> a mental case. And I'm sick of being called these lies.

He calls everyone but himself
Mentally ill !

> Either we ignore this person or do something about it. I vote for the
> latter.

I agree.

> Everyone else - if you want to run away, more power to ya!

Many people do not want the hassle of having him post lies
With hundreds of lines of lies about them in his long verbal diahreah
posts.
If you confront him and Expose his Sociopathic Behavior.

> I'm just not running away...

Me neither.
Can't do the time
Don't do the crime.
Jail Time for Jerry Howe,
The Pedophile.
Nothing less is acceptable.

Show Dog Bark
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