anti dock and crop legislation

"elegy" <elegy RemoveThis @DOGPOOPshattering.org> wrote in message
news:86kjp3pkqqtge9c93hgl9vt9qbe85hb4tt@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:03:29 -0900, "Beth In Alaska"
> <bethinak RemoveThis @spamfreeclearwire.net> wrote:
>>The corgi list is up in arms over some introduced bill in pa regarding
>>making docking illegal except if done by a vet and you have to have proof
>>that your dog was docked at a vet. I can't see a damn thing wrong with
>>that. I guess people feel like its an imposition on their rights as a pet
>>owner, but the truth is, aren't pet welfare laws an impostion on peoples
>>rights as pet owners?
>
> i've yet to actually find this legislation. i found the new proposed
> kennel legislation and i'd read that it was buried in there, but i
> sure couldn't find it.

It isn't actually in anything more than the working stage in PA. And there
are groups fighting it. At this point, it's not seen as much of a real
threat.

For Beth - Many, many responsible breeders do their own docking. (Cropping
is more uncommon.) It's a simple procedure - one that doesn't require a
great deal of training and no anesthesia. Docking is NOT a big deal - for
the dog (two day old puppy) or the person doing it. It does not require a
vet..

My dogs were cropped and docked by their breeder who lives in NYS. This
legislation as originally proposed would make it illegal for me to own my
dogs in PA, even though they were docked legally in another state. There
was a provision to grandfather in dogs already here, so we'd be okay. But
it would mean that I couldn't get another dog from any breeder who docked
legally in their own state.

And therein lies one of the greatest problems with the proposed wording - PA
cannot legislate what is legal in another state. If AKC ever jumps into the
fight - which last I knew they hadn't because it was really early - the
simple suggestion that there would be a major financial loss if there can't
be any AKC shows (forget that big Philadelphia breed show) or trials or
hunting tests because all those breeders bringing dogs into the state can't
provide that certification ought to make some people think twice.

I read the wording. It sounds like some legislator had to come up with some
"feel good" proposal to satisfy the anti-dog fighting crowd.

> my question with that whole "you have to prove it" thing is... what
> about shelter/rescue/stray dogs? there's going to be zero proof of who
> docked that tail. it's just another bunch of stupid legal garbage
> that's never going to be enforced. i'm tired of government.

And "you have to prove it" means that the government is assuming it was done
illegally unless I can prove otherwise. Guilty until I can prove otherwise.
>
>>And i guess, while I've met dogs with tail issues, that if boxers can
>>manage
>>with tails in Australia, then why not here? I'm definitely leaning
>>towards
>>floppy ears for dogs born that way. I guess its kind of like
>>circumcision -
>>maybe its not as necessary as we once considered it to be.

It is considered very necessary for those involve in preservation of their
breed as it was originally intended and created. (Personal opinion - I've
had both cropped and uncropped schnauzers. I like schnauzers either way.
I'd still like them with tails - although I don't think I've ever seen one
in real life.) However, I understand the issue of maintaining the breed as
it was intended to look. I also understand that if - for instance - the
boxer standard was rewritten to require a natural tail that a whole lot of
attention would have to be paid to tail genetics by the responsible
conformation breeders. Breed for one thing and you have to lose something
else that you had to push down the list in importance.

> i don't want to see it legislated, but i would really like to see more
> people make the choice to not crop and dock. it is happening more in
> the pet community, at least with ears, but i'm not holding my breath
> about the show community.

It IS happening more with ears. Partly that's because doing the tails isn't
a big deal. Ears require a major effort, expense and aftercare. You have
to really want it.

>why they're so married to cropping and
> docking because of the breed's history but could give a rat's patoot
> about working ability and proper temperament is beyond me. and that's
> why i'll never be involved in conformation. ever.

Your choice but I think it's an unfair generalization.

Judy
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation 

"elegy" <elegy DeleteThis @DOGPOOPshattering.org> wrote in message
news:86kjp3pkqqtge9c93hgl9vt9qbe85hb4tt@4ax.com...
> my question with that whole "you have to prove it" thing is... what
> about shelter/rescue/stray dogs? there's going to be zero proof of who
> docked that tail. it's just another bunch of stupid legal garbage
> that's never going to be enforced. i'm tired of government.

The law isn't enforcable, I agree.


>>And i guess, while I've met dogs with tail issues, that if boxers can
>>manage
>>with tails in Australia, then why not here? I'm definitely leaning
>>towards
>>floppy ears for dogs born that way. I guess its kind of like
>>circumcision -
>>maybe its not as necessary as we once considered it to be.
>>
>>anyway, flame away - interested in hearing others opinions and viewpoints
>>as
>>mine aren't fully formed.
>
> i don't want to see it legislated, but i would really like to see more
> people make the choice to not crop and dock. it is happening more in
> the pet community, at least with ears, but i'm not holding my breath
> about the show community. why they're so married to cropping and
> docking because of the breed's history but could give a rat's patoot
> about working ability and proper temperament is beyond me. and that's
> why i'll never be involved in conformation. ever.


I guess that is what I thought was so interesting about australia - i guess
the boxers are showing with ears and tails.
Which is cool.
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation 

BethinAk said in part.
while I was in Australia I met a lovely uncropped and undocked boxer.
I've seen uncropped ones, but never a boxer tail. It was a Mickey Mouse
sort of affair, but he looked cute with it.
When I asked about his tail and ears she explained that docking and
cropping are illegal there.........
_______________________
BethinAk
Hi, welcome back, it is nice to see you again.
My breed of choice is Dobermans. I don't have any at the present, but
they are my favorites.
I bought a pet quality pup (Dobe) with ears and tails already cropped.
Several years later I bought a Dobe pup with ears and tails cropped. Of
course in both cases I had to do the bandaging to make their ears stand.
He ended up having a chance in the show ring. He was Beau. He was the
love of my life. My favorite dog.
I bred a litter of Dobes and ended up with 8 pet quality dogs. I had
their ears and tails done by a Vet.
I am an animal lover to the max. I rehab wildlife and release it,
capture spiders, rather than kill them. I have no excuse for cropping
and docking of Dobes other than sheer vanity. The first time I saw a
Dobe without his ears and tails done. I had to look twice, before
realizing it was a Dobe.
I have given the subject a lot of thought over the years. I do not
want a Dobe without his ears and tails done. I have tried to make up
excuses why that was ok, but there aren't any.
As far as legislation goes, I don't see that happening. We can't seem
to enforce animal abuse laws that are on the books.
I want cropping and docking done by a Vet, but I don't think that is
going to become a law. I don't want another law on the books.
I hope you understand that I am not saying I am right. I am just
sharing my feeling about Dobes. I have tried for years to justify it to
myself, but I can't.
I am all about temperament. I am sure a Dobe is still a Dobe without
his tail and ears done. He still would be the loving dog I have come to
know, but he just wouldn't be a Dobe to me.
My old Lab arrived almost 15 years ago. Every Vet that has seen him
says he is a Lab through and through, yet someone docked his tail. They
did a piss poor job of it. I do not know if it was because his tail was
injured or if it is because he is a mix, and they were trying to make
him look like something else. He is a Lab.
I recall cringing when my handler shaved the hairs off of Beau's
muzzle before entering the show ring. How crazy is that, after docking
and cropping?


Be Free.....Judy
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation 

"Beth In Alaska" <bethinak.TakeThisOut@spamfreeclearwire.net> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> Since returning home, i've learrned that pems are usually
> born with tails and docked!! I didn't know.

You should have. Like Aussies, they can have natural bob tails.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation 

"Rocky" <3dogs.TakeThisOut@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Fri9A306FFF6B1D0australianshepherdca@rocky-dog.com...
> "Beth In Alaska" <bethinak.TakeThisOut@spamfreeclearwire.net> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
>> Since returning home, i've learrned that pems are usually
>> born with tails and docked!! I didn't know.
>
> You should have. Like Aussies, they can have natural bob tails.


Is there a way to tell after the fact if pirate has been docked or came that
way?
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation 

"Beth In Alaska" <bethinak DeleteThis @spamfreeclearwire.net> wrote in message
news:13piusjkguhof3c@corp.supernews.com...
> while i was in australia i met a lovely uncropped and undocked boxer.
> I've seen uncropped ones but never a boxer tail! It was a mickey mouse
> sort of affair, but he looked cute with it.
>
> When i asked his owner about his tail and ears she explained that docking
> and cropping are illegal there!
>
> Since returning home, i've learrned that pems are usually born with tails
> and docked!! I didn't know.
>
> The corgi list is up in arms over some introduced bill in pa regarding
> making docking illegal except if done by a vet and you have to have proof
> that your dog was docked at a vet. I can't see a damn thing wrong with
> that. I guess people feel like its an imposition on their rights as a pet
> owner, but the truth is, aren't pet welfare laws an impostion on peoples
> rights as pet owners?
>
> And i guess, while I've met dogs with tail issues, that if boxers can
> manage with tails in Australia, then why not here? I'm definitely leaning
> towards floppy ears for dogs born that way. I guess its kind of like
> circumcision - maybe its not as necessary as we once considered it to be.
>
> anyway, flame away - interested in hearing others opinions and viewpoints
> as mine aren't fully formed.
>
>
Beth,

Many experienced breeders are quite good at tail docking and many
veterinarians aren't or don't know the proper length for the dock.

Some breeds are docked because the natural tail doesn't handle the typical
breed lifestyle/work well. Rather than select for a tail that doesn't bleed
and split for instance, the early breeders chose to dock them.

Beth
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation 

"bethgsd" <bethgsd RemoveThis @nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:MYumj.125$ZO5.121@trnddc03...
>
> "Beth In Alaska" <bethinak RemoveThis @spamfreeclearwire.net> wrote in message
> news:13piusjkguhof3c@corp.supernews.com...
>> while i was in australia i met a lovely uncropped and undocked boxer.
>> I've seen uncropped ones but never a boxer tail! It was a mickey mouse
>> sort of affair, but he looked cute with it.
>>
>> When i asked his owner about his tail and ears she explained that docking
>> and cropping are illegal there!
>>
>> Since returning home, i've learrned that pems are usually born with tails
>> and docked!! I didn't know.
>>
>> The corgi list is up in arms over some introduced bill in pa regarding
>> making docking illegal except if done by a vet and you have to have proof
>> that your dog was docked at a vet. I can't see a damn thing wrong with
>> that. I guess people feel like its an imposition on their rights as a pet
>> owner, but the truth is, aren't pet welfare laws an impostion on peoples
>> rights as pet owners?
>>
>> And i guess, while I've met dogs with tail issues, that if boxers can
>> manage with tails in Australia, then why not here? I'm definitely
>> leaning towards floppy ears for dogs born that way. I guess its kind of
>> like circumcision - maybe its not as necessary as we once considered it
>> to be.
>>
>> anyway, flame away - interested in hearing others opinions and viewpoints
>> as mine aren't fully formed.
>>
>>
> Beth,
>
> Many experienced breeders are quite good at tail docking and many
> veterinarians aren't or don't know the proper length for the dock.
>
> Some breeds are docked because the natural tail doesn't handle the typical
> breed lifestyle/work well. Rather than select for a tail that doesn't
> bleed and split for instance, the early breeders chose to dock them.

Yes, and after seeing a boxers skinny mickey mouse tail i can see how this
could happen. My mom also rescued and rehomed a stray who had a broken and
continuously split and infected tail which had to be removed.

But ears are a whole nother ball of wax.
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation 

"Beth In Alaska" <bethinak RemoveThis @spamfreeclearwire.net> wrote in message
news:13piusjkguhof3c@corp.supernews.com...
> while i was in australia i met a lovely uncropped and undocked boxer.
> I've seen uncropped ones but never a boxer tail! It was a mickey mouse
> sort of affair, but he looked cute with it.
>
> When i asked his owner about his tail and ears she explained that docking
> and cropping are illegal there!
>
> Since returning home, i've learrned that pems are usually born with tails
> and docked!! I didn't know.
>
> The corgi list is up in arms over some introduced bill in pa regarding
> making docking illegal except if done by a vet and you have to have proof
> that your dog was docked at a vet. I can't see a damn thing wrong with
> that. I guess people feel like its an imposition on their rights as a pet
> owner, but the truth is, aren't pet welfare laws an impostion on peoples
> rights as pet owners?
>
> And i guess, while I've met dogs with tail issues, that if boxers can
> manage with tails in Australia, then why not here? I'm definitely leaning
> towards floppy ears for dogs born that way. I guess its kind of like
> circumcision - maybe its not as necessary as we once considered it to be.
>
> anyway, flame away - interested in hearing others opinions and viewpoints
> as mine aren't fully formed.
>
>

You won't get any argument from me. I think both practices are a bit
barbaric.



td


>
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation 

"BethInAK" <bethinak.TakeThisOut@clearwire.net> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> Is there a way to tell after the fact if pirate has been
> docked or came that way?

I've been told that how the hair on the stub grows is an
indication. I can't see the difference.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation 

"Rocky" <3dogs.TakeThisOut@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Fri9A30D1C8533D2australianshepherdca@rocky-dog.com...
> "BethInAK" <bethinak.TakeThisOut@clearwire.net> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
>> Is there a way to tell after the fact if pirate has been
>> docked or came that way?
>
> I've been told that how the hair on the stub grows is an
> indication. I can't see the difference.


Pirate doesn't have a stub. He's got nuttin. I'll ask his breeder.
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation 

In article <13pln93lg0his52.RemoveThis@corp.supernews.com>,
"Beth In Alaska" <bethinak.RemoveThis@spamfreeclearwire.net> wrote:

> But ears are a whole nother ball of wax.

Not if you clean them properly!
--
Bright eyes/burning like fire,           | Kevin Michael Vail
Bright eyes/how can you close and fail?  | kevin.RemoveThis@vaildc.net
How can the light that shone so brightly | . . . . . . . . . .
Suddenly shine so pale?/Bright eyes      |  . . . . . . . . .
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation 

"montana wildhack" <montana.DeleteThis@wildhack.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:2008012608544716807-montana@wildhackcominvalid...
> On 2008-01-26 03:23:24 -0500, Kevin Michael Vail <kevin.DeleteThis@vaildc.net> said:
>
>> In article <13pln93lg0his52.DeleteThis@corp.supernews.com>,
>> "Beth In Alaska" <bethinak.DeleteThis@spamfreeclearwire.net> wrote:
>>
>>> But ears are a whole nother ball of wax.
>>
>> Not if you clean them properly!
>
> I think BethF was saying that she wasn't a fan of ear cropping, but could
> see some reasons for tail docking, if the tail were likely to be easily
> damaged...
>


He's just making a punny!!
The response is best "GROAN!"
 >> Stay informed about: anti dock and crop legislation