First aquarium... need some advice...

"Rick" <rick703NOSPAM DeleteThis @mts.net> wrote in message
news:84w3c.2607$vo6.7034@news1.mts.net...
>
>
> why would you say a 16 g tank is not suitable for one goldfish??.
>
> Rick
Because goldfish like company & the tank isn't big enough for two!
Sue
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice... 

"Sue" <nospamback RemoveThis @btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:c2mc8b$240$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
>
> "Rick" <rick703NOSPAM RemoveThis @mts.net> wrote in message
> news:84w3c.2607$vo6.7034@news1.mts.net...
> >
> >
> > why would you say a 16 g tank is not suitable for one goldfish??.
> >
> > Rick
> Because goldfish like company & the tank isn't big enough for two!
> Sue
>


hmmm, I've kept 6 goldfish in a 25 gallon tank with UGF for quite sometime
without any problems at all. Now of course they were not 12" goldfish but
they were in the 3 -4 " range. I'm aware that recommended tank space is 10
gallons per fish however this in dependent only on your water change and
type of filtration. Personally I would have no problem keeping a couple of
the smaller fantail or similar goldfish in a 16 gallon tank.

Rick
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice... 

Rick wrote:
> hmmm, I've kept 6 goldfish in a 25 gallon tank with UGF for quite sometime
> without any problems at all. Now of course they were not 12" goldfish but
> they were in the 3 -4 " range. I'm aware that recommended tank space is 10
> gallons per fish however this in dependent only on your water change and
> type of filtration. Personally I would have no problem keeping a couple of
> the smaller fantail or similar goldfish in a 16 gallon tank.
>
> Rick

define "sometime" - goldfish can live upto 20 years. I suspect 6 in a 25 would
be lucky
to pass the 3 year mark.

Goldfish need space to swim freely.
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice... 

Exactly Rick,
Your fish are stunted!

I put six 1"- 2" goldfish into a pond last June. They are now all well over
six inches ( not counting tails) .The Shubunkins from the year before are
over eight inches!
Keeping goldfish in small tanks is like trying to keep tinfoil barbs in
small tanks and just because they may survive doesn't mean they will thrive.
You could keep a couple of small fantails for a while but they would need a
larger tank sooner rather than later. Far better to get fish more suited to
the tank size.

Sue

> hmmm, I've kept 6 goldfish in a 25 gallon tank with UGF for quite sometime
> without any problems at all. Now of course they were not 12" goldfish but
> they were in the 3 -4 " range. I'm aware that recommended tank space is 10
> gallons per fish however this in dependent only on your water change and
> type of filtration. Personally I would have no problem keeping a couple of
> the smaller fantail or similar goldfish in a 16 gallon tank.
>
> Rick
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice... 

I think that pond growth might be more related to the almost continuous
source of fresh food (mosquito larvae) than with water quality or
swimming area. The guideline on Goldfish is very useful for beginners.
An experienced aquarist can achieve quality results by overfiltering and
'maniacal' ;~) water change routines. Goldfish do not suffer from a bit
of crowding like some fish. In large tanks, I've seen them huddled
together, because there is comfort in numbers. Hopefully, we are
discussing short bodied fan-tails which grow to 8". Comets, Shubunkins
and Koi are not really aquarium fish.

A 16g is fine imo for a couple of small fantails, especially in
experienced hands, but they will outgrow it. I have three 6 or 7 inch
(not including the tail) Ryukins bobbing around quite happily in a 100g,
but they would be ok in a 60g as well. Another guideline is 3g of water
per inch of fish (not including the tail). I find this guideline more
workable, and very useful as a guide for filtration. I periodically get
Goldfish donated which are literally too big to eat from the surface (too
long to angle upwards). Typically came from a 5 or 10g tank in a
kitchen, where it lovingly got lots of water changes. My indoor pond at
work is a retirement home of sorts ;~)

cheers
NetMax

"Sue" <nospamback.TakeThisOut@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:c2nfko$4kv$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
> Exactly Rick,
> Your fish are stunted!
>
> I put six 1"- 2" goldfish into a pond last June. They are now all well
over
> six inches ( not counting tails) .The Shubunkins from the year before
are
> over eight inches!
> Keeping goldfish in small tanks is like trying to keep tinfoil barbs in
> small tanks and just because they may survive doesn't mean they will
thrive.
> You could keep a couple of small fantails for a while but they would
need a
> larger tank sooner rather than later. Far better to get fish more
suited to
> the tank size.
>
> Sue
>
> > hmmm, I've kept 6 goldfish in a 25 gallon tank with UGF for quite
sometime
> > without any problems at all. Now of course they were not 12" goldfish
but
> > they were in the 3 -4 " range. I'm aware that recommended tank space
is 10
> > gallons per fish however this in dependent only on your water change
and
> > type of filtration. Personally I would have no problem keeping a
couple of
> > the smaller fantail or similar goldfish in a 16 gallon tank.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> >
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice... 

In article
<8xw3c.12475$%06.2515@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
vincentbillNOSPAM.TakeThisOut@hotmail.NOSPAM.com says...
>
> It's too small. Even a comet has a potential size of 12" or more. The
> popularity of goldfish is a crime, to the fish, at least. Millions of them
> are sentenced to death every year due to cramped quarters causing stunted
> growth and eventual death.

There's a lot of good advice in this group, but there's also a
large population of folks that think every fish must have
optimum conditions. They sure don't get that in the natural
state :-).

There was a post in one of the aquaria groups the other day that
said stunting was not true. Goldfish would quit growing in a
smaller tank at some point, but if moved to a larger tank in the
future they would resume normal growth - no stunting damage.
I'd like to hear more from that poster on the subject - like
some references.

But I do know that I kept two shubunkins in a 10 gallon tank (or
maybe it was only 5) for close to ten years with no filtration,
no plants. Just weekly partial water changes. They finally
died when my little sister dumped a whole container of food in
the tank at once.

So put your fish in the 16 gallon tank and after it's cycled buy
him a playmate. If you keep the tank chemistry as close to the
criteria as you can, don't overfeed, and put in a good filter,
your fish will probably be healthy and happy for years. They'll
probably never exceed 4-5 inches, but if it bothers you when
they stop growing you can always get a bigger tank then.

I can just see the keyboards heating up in response to this :-).

--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice... 

> >
> > What about Otos for algae control? I've heard the stories that they
> have
> > a high mortality rate, but my LFS recommended them to me for algae
> > control. Are apple snail populations as hard to control as other
> snails?
> > I've heard other stories about snails getting out of control and
> predators
> > being added to tanks just to eradicate the booming snail population.
> >
> > --chris
>
> Your LFS recommended that mix, eh? hmmm. Goldfish & Otos are not
> appropriate tank-mates for several reasons : i) they like opposite water
> parameters (hard vs soft water), ii) they come from different
> temperatures (cool vs warm), iii) Goldfish put everything in their mouth
> (and Otos stay small), and iv) Otos are a bit fragile and somewhat
> sensitive to ammonia and low oxygen (and Goldfish are in the top three
> waste producers class, with Plecos and Oscars).
>
> Pond snails can explode in population. Apple snails lay their eggs out
> of the water, and their success rate is not very good. I've only
> encountered 2 people who regularly have & raise Apple snails. I think
> that it takes a bit of effort and the right conditions.
>
> NetMax
>

Sorry -- I should have been more explicit -- I joined this thread late.
My LFS recommended Oto's for my community tank which is mostly dwarf fish
(all < 2"). I was just wondering why you didn't mention Oto's as algae
eaters, since it seemed like you were discussing algae eaters in general,
not just for GF tanks.

--chris
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice... 

"Larry Blanchard" <lblanch RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:c2oc55$1ukj3c$1@ID-124996.news.uni-berlin.de...
> In article
> <8xw3c.12475$%06.2515@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> vincentbillNOSPAM RemoveThis @hotmail.NOSPAM.com says...
<snip>
> There's a lot of good advice in this group, but there's also a
> large population of folks that think every fish must have
> optimum conditions. They sure don't get that in the natural
> state :-).
>
> There was a post in one of the aquaria groups the other day that
> said stunting was not true. Goldfish would quit growing in a
> smaller tank at some point, but if moved to a larger tank in the
> future they would resume normal growth - no stunting damage.
> I'd like to hear more from that poster on the subject - like
> some references.

A runt (stunting) theory = non-optimal conditions during juvenile stages
can cause a fish to permanently stay small, or unable to obtain normal
size.

<snip>
> I can just see the keyboards heating up in response to this :-).

LOL, but what if there is no black or white answer to this? Physically,
the juvenile stages of organisms adapt more easily to their environment,
so the biggest growth push occurs when fish are younger (supporting the
runt theory). In any batch of fry, all given identical conditions, you
will almost always have a % of runts (supporting random selection).
There is reasonable speculation that fish release a hormone into the
water (or it's NO3 levels), and the concentration read back is a growth
trigger or inhibitor (more hormone means less water which means less
food, so stay small to survive, less hormone means more water which means
more food, so grow big to compete) and this would dispute the runt
theory, if fish are continuously adaptable to environmental changes. The
size and flow of the waterways the fish evolved in will also be a
significant factor in how the runt theory can apply or be refuted. It
might be safe to say that everyone is partially correct, but I think our
objective should be to provide size-appropriate conditions for every
stage of their development.

NetMax
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice... 

"Chris Palma" <cp4v.RemoveThis@superfly.astro.Virginia.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.0403102257330.13102@superfly.astro.Virginia.EDU...
> > >
> > > What about Otos for algae control? I've heard the stories that
they
> > have
> > > a high mortality rate, but my LFS recommended them to me for algae
> > > control. Are apple snail populations as hard to control as other
> > snails?
> > > I've heard other stories about snails getting out of control and
> > predators
> > > being added to tanks just to eradicate the booming snail
population.
> > >
> > > --chris
> >
> > Your LFS recommended that mix, eh? hmmm. Goldfish & Otos are not
> > appropriate tank-mates for several reasons : i) they like opposite
water
> > parameters (hard vs soft water), ii) they come from different
> > temperatures (cool vs warm), iii) Goldfish put everything in their
mouth
> > (and Otos stay small), and iv) Otos are a bit fragile and somewhat
> > sensitive to ammonia and low oxygen (and Goldfish are in the top
three
> > waste producers class, with Plecos and Oscars).
> >
> > Pond snails can explode in population. Apple snails lay their eggs
out
> > of the water, and their success rate is not very good. I've only
> > encountered 2 people who regularly have & raise Apple snails. I
think
> > that it takes a bit of effort and the right conditions.
> >
> > NetMax
> >
>
> Sorry -- I should have been more explicit -- I joined this thread late.
> My LFS recommended Oto's for my community tank which is mostly dwarf
fish
> (all < 2"). I was just wondering why you didn't mention Oto's as algae
> eaters, since it seemed like you were discussing algae eaters in
general,
> not just for GF tanks.
>
> --chris

Gotcha, yup, back to a tropical tank, small fish, warm neutral to acidic
water ; Otos are little keeners, but it takes quite a few to get the job
done right. I especially recommend them for heated 10 to 20g tanks.
Above 20g, you have more options, but a shoal of Otos lying around the
leaves, or travelling together is still a lovely sight.

There might be a dozen types of algae, and none of the algae eaters will
eat all of the types, so ymmv. Generally, the type of algae you have, is
the kind your algae eaters don't eat (or you wouldn't have it ;~).

NetMax
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice... 

"Larry Blanchard" <lblanch.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:c2oc55$1ukj3c$1@ID-124996.news.uni-berlin.de...
> In article
> <8xw3c.12475$%06.2515@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> vincentbillNOSPAM.DeleteThis@hotmail.NOSPAM.com says...
> >
> > It's too small. Even a comet has a potential size of 12" or more. The
> > popularity of goldfish is a crime, to the fish, at least. Millions of
them
> > are sentenced to death every year due to cramped quarters causing
stunted
> > growth and eventual death.
>
> There's a lot of good advice in this group, but there's also a
> large population of folks that think every fish must have
> optimum conditions. They sure don't get that in the natural
> state :-).
>
> There was a post in one of the aquaria groups the other day that
> said stunting was not true. Goldfish would quit growing in a
> smaller tank at some point, but if moved to a larger tank in the
> future they would resume normal growth - no stunting damage.
> I'd like to hear more from that poster on the subject - like
> some references.
>
> But I do know that I kept two shubunkins in a 10 gallon tank (or
> maybe it was only 5) for close to ten years with no filtration,
> no plants. Just weekly partial water changes. They finally
> died when my little sister dumped a whole container of food in
> the tank at once.
>
> So put your fish in the 16 gallon tank and after it's cycled buy
> him a playmate. If you keep the tank chemistry as close to the
> criteria as you can, don't overfeed, and put in a good filter,
> your fish will probably be healthy and happy for years. They'll
> probably never exceed 4-5 inches, but if it bothers you when
> they stop growing you can always get a bigger tank then.
>
> I can just see the keyboards heating up in response to this :-).
>
> --

good points Larry and some that I have tried to make over and over again.
There are a lot of good intentioned people out there that have knowledge but
perhaps not practical experience. You can go anywhere on the web and find
information that says you should have only one goldfish per 10 gallons. So
someone has a 10 or 16 gallon tank and goes and buys a couple of small
goldfish and right away he is told to take them back to the store asap or
get a bigger tank. It's akin to the many posts that show up for people who
buy Bala Sharks and Clown Loaches and have a 20 or 30 gallon tank and are
told the same thing. I have made the point that I had 6 goldfish that by the
time I got rid of them were about 3" in size and were housed in a 25 g tall
tank and I had no problem at all. I did biweekly water changes and gravel
vac's , the tank also had an UGF and an airstone. I donated those fish to a
Nursing Home where they joined several other goldfish and more than a year
later those fish are alive and well. I prefer to tell people that want fish
that will eventually get too big for the tank they have to check with the
LFS and see if they will take them back when that time comes. You can always
trade them in for smaller one's. Last week I took 4 Bala Sharks back to my
LFS . I had them for more than 2 years and they had grown to about 4-5
inches. Coincidently a lady had contacted our local aquarium society wanting
to get rid of her 7" Bala Shark and could find no takers so I offered to
come over and pick it up. When I got to her suite she had that shark in a 20
g tall tank. I almost couldn't believe my eyes. The fish looked absolutely
huge in that tank however it had grown well, was in excellent health and
was a beautiful looking fish. Now I would never keep one that size in that
tank however she had the fish for 4 years and it most definitely was not
stunted. So to newbies who have their heart set on Bala's, Goldfish, Oscars
or what ever. Buy them and enjoy them, look after their needs with regular
water changes and when they get too big for your tank then trade them in but
don't limit your enjoyment of the hobby simply because you did not buy a big
enough tank.

Rick
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice... 

"Larry Blanchard" <lblanch RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:c2oc55$1ukj3c$1@ID-124996.news.uni-berlin.de...

> There's a lot of good advice in this group, but there's also a
> large population of folks that think every fish must have
> optimum conditions. They sure don't get that in the natural
> state :-).

No they don't but that is no reason for an aquarist not trying to give them
optimum conditions!

I'm sure you'll agree that not all children get optimum care. extrapolate
that per your fish argument.
Sue
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice... 

>Subject: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: google.RemoveThis@2paclegacy.com (tony)
>Date: 3/9/2004 1:38 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <4b3f2de3.0403091138.69deee3b.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>
>
>Am intrested in learning more about fish and aquariums and (yesterday)
>bought a 16 gallon bow front tank, Aqua clear 'mini' cycleguard filter
>and one gold fish (forgot the specific type of fish, but its about 3
>in. in length.
>

Hmm...you should have come to research before you bought a fish.
You've just now stocked your 16g tank.
Not large enough for more than 1 Goldie, and barley enough for one.


>I have the goldfish in a small bowl I also bought since the lady at
>the petstore said the tank/filter should run for 3-4 days first.
>

Funny...did she also mention to you that that can kill your Goldfish???
Goldies *CANNOT* breathe surface air and shouldn't ever be kept in a bowl. I
bet right now it's at the surface gasping for air as it slowly suffocates and
is poisoned by it's own waste.
Man..you need to go find that lady and smack her with a book about proper fish
care!
Goldies put out a great deal of waste, more than other fish, and need a reallty
good filtration system. Not happening in a bowl.
Also...letting the filter run for 3-4 days is bunk. The lady just doesn't know
what she's talking about and should be called on it. She's already put your
Goldie at risk of killing it, and has given you false info.



>I added tap water and stress coat to the aquarium and installed the
>filter - water was cloudy, but about 24 hours later looks a lot
>clearer.
>
>Am I doing everything right so far?
>
>I dont know if I want to just get 2 or 3 more of the same type of
>goldfish or get tropical fish of some type - i'd like something fairly
>playful and active since my kids will get a kick out of watching them
>play around.

Nope. You can't fit any more Goldies in this tank.
You cannot mix tropical fish with Goldies..they have different requirements and
water conditions.
Just out of curiosity, was this a chain store that sold you a tank and a fish
onthe same day and gave you bogus info?


>What advice can you all give where thats concerned?
>
>I've read (after the fact) that its better for a beginner to get a
>tank thats 20 gallons (its true that smaller ones are more work???),
>but am not ready to go out and get another one now - maybe next year.
>
>Thanks for any help/links you can provide.
>
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice... 

>Subject: Re: First aquarium... need some advice...
>From: "Dinky" vincentbillNOSPAM.TakeThisOut@hotmail.NOSPAM.com
>Date: 3/9/2004 10:08 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <8xw3c.12475$%06.2515@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
>
>"Rick" <rick703NOSPAM.TakeThisOut@mts.net> wrote in message
>news:84w3c.2607$vo6.7034@news1.mts.net...
>>
>>
>> why would you say a 16 g tank is not suitable for one goldfish??.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>
>It's too small. Even a comet has a potential size of 12" or more. The
>popularity of goldfish is a crime, to the fish, at least. Millions of them
>are sentenced to death every year due to cramped quarters causing stunted
>growth and eventual death.
>

I totally agree with ya on this.
I've said a million times that min. tank for a fancy, not common, comet, would
be 10g....but I am quickly changing my mind. After seeing so many max sized
fancies in a 10g by them selves.....it's just too small.
Also.....don't the Comet's reach 16" or is that the common?
 >> Stay informed about: First aquarium... need some advice...