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Next: Ray Slater is a misanthropic shitbag.
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Since: Nov 13, 2003 Posts: 354
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:10 pm
Post subject: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death Archived from groups: alt>food>vegan, others (more info?)
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Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral suffering
and death that results from their own food production. Their objections
to animal deaths arise only with respect to the actual eating of meat.
They'd rather labor entirely over the death of the one animal eaten so
they can bury their heads over the mass slaughter resulting from grain
and other plant-based food production. They think they're more ethical
because they assume (wrongly) that those who eat meat are always at
least "plus one" in the counting game.
It is a very sleazy and shoddy attempt at moral relativism.
Let's suppose a grain field's planting and harvesting results in 1000
animal deaths. The vegans and animal rights activists are mum on every
single one of those deaths, but they eat the grains anyway and proclaim
their own self-righteousness because they didn't eat any meat. The
vegans and ARAs simply do not care about the first thousand dead animals.
If that same field were used to raise one head of beef, the vegans would
offer their "plus one" objection -- that even though they themselves
were responsible for 1000 collateral deaths, they were personally and
collectively absolved of the 1001st death because they did not eat the
meat from it. They forget that they were complicit in animal deaths
number 1 through number 1000, but those don't matter to them because
they're uneaten.
Such an argument, which I now call "Objecting to the 1001st Death,"
relies ENTIRELY on moral relativism. It avoids personal culpability for
one's actions and ultimately becomes a diversion from the issue vegans
and ARAs raise about animal cruelty.
The 1001st animal, the one that appears in meals, is most usually
slaughtered in a very humane fashion after being well fed and cared for.
We have many laws and regulations to protect that animal's welfare and
to protect the public's safety.
Animals 1 through 1000, the collateral deaths, die as a result of being
run over, sliced and diced, poisoning, predation, burning (some
croplands like those used for sugar production are burned), and flooding
from irrigation. Their deaths can be prolonged and agonizing if they're
wounded and left to die or for scavenging.
If veganism were about concern and compassion for animals, vegans and
ARAs would need to genuinely address deaths 1 through 1000 rather than
trivialize them. They would need to admit that their diet is every bit
as cruel and inhumane as any other diet. They would have to be more
candid that a diet based on commercially-grown grains and legumes --
which they advocate -- is not the most compassionate diet because it
causes many animals to die or become injured.
Their objections only to the death of the 1001st animal demonstrate,
however, that their concerns are not about concern for animals as they
claim. Their only concern is their own smug and back-patting
self-righteousness and their desire to claim moral uprightness. Their
objections to meat eating overlook the fact that many meals come as a
result of the death of the 1001st animal, while only a few meals come
from the deaths of the first 1000.
Veganism and ARA are not about compassion for animals. "Objecting to the
1001st Death" proves it. >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: Dec 05, 2004 Posts: 56
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Jul 15, 2003 Posts: 586
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:42:27 +0000, Reynard <reynard DeleteThis @hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:10:50 GMT, usual suspect <support DeleteThis @our.troops> wrote:
>
>>Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral suffering
>>and death that results from their own food production.
>
>Ipse dixit and false.
· From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
draining of fields, one meal of soy or rice based product is
likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of meals
derived from grass raised cattle. Grass raised animal products
contribute to less wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. · >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: May 18, 2004 Posts: 184
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"usual suspect" <support RemoveThis @our.troops> wrote in message
news:uiHsd.81125$KQ2.23283@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral suffering and
> death that results from their own food production. Their objections to
> animal deaths arise only with respect to the actual eating of meat. They'd
> rather labor entirely over the death of the one animal eaten so they can
> bury their heads over the mass slaughter resulting from grain and other
> plant-based food production. They think they're more ethical because they
> assume (wrongly) that those who eat meat are always at least "plus one" in
> the counting game.
>
> It is a very sleazy and shoddy attempt at moral relativism.
>
> Let's suppose a grain field's planting and harvesting results in 1000
> animal deaths. The vegans and animal rights activists are mum on every
> single one of those deaths, but they eat the grains anyway and proclaim
> their own self-righteousness because they didn't eat any meat. The vegans
> and ARAs simply do not care about the first thousand dead animals.
>
> If that same field were used to raise one head of beef, the vegans would
> offer their "plus one" objection -- that even though they themselves were
> responsible for 1000 collateral deaths, they were personally and
> collectively absolved of the 1001st death because they did not eat the
> meat from it. They forget that they were complicit in animal deaths number
> 1 through number 1000, but those don't matter to them because they're
> uneaten.
>
> Such an argument, which I now call "Objecting to the 1001st Death," relies
> ENTIRELY on moral relativism. It avoids personal culpability for one's
> actions and ultimately becomes a diversion from the issue vegans and ARAs
> raise about animal cruelty.
>
> The 1001st animal, the one that appears in meals, is most usually
> slaughtered in a very humane fashion after being well fed and cared for.
> We have many laws and regulations to protect that animal's welfare and to
> protect the public's safety.
>
> Animals 1 through 1000, the collateral deaths, die as a result of being
> run over, sliced and diced, poisoning, predation, burning (some croplands
> like those used for sugar production are burned), and flooding from
> irrigation. Their deaths can be prolonged and agonizing if they're wounded
> and left to die or for scavenging.
>
> If veganism were about concern and compassion for animals, vegans and ARAs
> would need to genuinely address deaths 1 through 1000 rather than
> trivialize them. They would need to admit that their diet is every bit as
> cruel and inhumane as any other diet. They would have to be more candid
> that a diet based on commercially-grown grains and legumes --
> which they advocate -- is not the most compassionate diet because it
> causes many animals to die or become injured.
>
> Their objections only to the death of the 1001st animal demonstrate,
> however, that their concerns are not about concern for animals as they
> claim. Their only concern is their own smug and back-patting
> self-righteousness and their desire to claim moral uprightness. Their
> objections to meat eating overlook the fact that many meals come as a
> result of the death of the 1001st animal, while only a few meals come from
> the deaths of the first 1000.
>
> Veganism and ARA are not about compassion for animals. "Objecting to the
> 1001st Death" proves it.
Piss off you trolling bore. >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: Dec 05, 2004 Posts: 56
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:33:21 GMT, usual suspect <support.RemoveThis@our.troops> wrote:
>Reynard wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:10:50 GMT, usual suspect <support.RemoveThis@our.troops> wrote:
>>
>>>Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral suffering
>>>and death that results from their own food production.
>>
>> Ipse dixit and false.
>
>Your posting history on the issue proves it.
Exactly. I've always shown that your assertion is without
any support and false. >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: Dec 05, 2004 Posts: 15
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"usual suspect" <support.DeleteThis@our.troops> wrote in message
news:uiHsd.81125$KQ2.23283@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral suffering
> and death that results from their own food production. Their objections
> to animal deaths arise only with respect to the actual eating of meat.
> They'd rather labor entirely over the death of the one animal eaten so
> they can bury their heads over the mass slaughter resulting from grain
> and other plant-based food production. They think they're more ethical
> because they assume (wrongly) that those who eat meat are always at
> least "plus one" in the counting game.
>
> It is a very sleazy and shoddy attempt at moral relativism.
>
> Let's suppose a grain field's planting and harvesting results in 1000
> animal deaths. The vegans and animal rights activists are mum on every
> single one of those deaths, but they eat the grains anyway and proclaim
> their own self-righteousness because they didn't eat any meat. The
> vegans and ARAs simply do not care about the first thousand dead animals.
They keep mum on the first 1000 deaths up to the point that someone informs
them of the deaths. At that point, then begin handwaving and temporizing
about doing "all they can" to minimize those deaths, e.g. by buying only
"locally produced" produce.
>
> If that same field were used to raise one head of beef, the vegans would
> offer their "plus one" objection -- that even though they themselves
> were responsible for 1000 collateral deaths, they were personally and
> collectively absolved of the 1001st death because they did not eat the
> meat from it. They forget that they were complicit in animal deaths
> number 1 through number 1000, but those don't matter to them because
> they're uneaten.
This gets back to the basic fallacy underlying the "vegan"
pseudo-philosophy. It's the eating, not the killing, that bothers "vegans".
As John Mercer memorably put it in an earlier discussion on the topic - the
topic that won't go away: "The only distinction is an esthetic one--the
disposition of the corpses produced."
"vegans" aren't concerned in the least about the 1000 deaths, because they
don't eat the corpses.
>
> Such an argument, which I now call "Objecting to the 1001st Death,"
> relies ENTIRELY on moral relativism. It avoids personal culpability for
> one's actions and ultimately becomes a diversion from the issue vegans
> and ARAs raise about animal cruelty.
The wish to avoid or reduce personal culpability actually leads some
"vegans" and omnivores alike to view animal deaths, incorrectly, as
divisible. Many on both sides subscribe to a bizarre and erroneous belief
that one can be responsible for some discrete fraction of an animal death.
Somewhat surprisingly, the argument seems to be found more commonly among
omnivores, most often when they talk about the number of meals that may be
had from the meat from one large animal; they'll talk about a "fraction of a
death" attributable to one hamburger, for example.
The animal deaths are indivisible. If the food production that caused the
1000 collateral deaths yielded food to feed 100,000 people (that would be
some yield!), the eaters cannot say that they only "caused" 1/100th of a
death. They all, collectively, are responsible for all 1000 deaths.
Similarly, if a dressed steer carcass yields 250 pounds of edible beef, and
those are made into 500 half-pound servings, those who eat them cannot say
they only "caused" 1/500th of a death; they ALL caused one full death,
together.
The point is to compare the total numbers. One *could* eat a fish, causing
one animal death; or one could eat a serving of rice that came from a
particular crop whose cultivation and harvest caused 1000 deaths. The rice
eater caused 1000 deaths.
>
> The 1001st animal, the one that appears in meals, is most usually
> slaughtered in a very humane fashion after being well fed and cared for.
> We have many laws and regulations to protect that animal's welfare and
> to protect the public's safety.
>
> Animals 1 through 1000, the collateral deaths, die as a result of being
> run over, sliced and diced, poisoning, predation, burning (some
> croplands like those used for sugar production are burned), and flooding
> from irrigation. Their deaths can be prolonged and agonizing if they're
> wounded and left to die or for scavenging.
As long as one doesn't eat the corpses, one can pretend not to know.
>
> If veganism were about concern and compassion for animals, vegans and
> ARAs would need to genuinely address deaths 1 through 1000 rather than
> trivialize them. They would need to admit that their diet is every bit
> as cruel and inhumane as any other diet. They would have to be more
> candid that a diet based on commercially-grown grains and legumes --
> which they advocate -- is not the most compassionate diet because it
> causes many animals to die or become injured.
>
> Their objections only to the death of the 1001st animal demonstrate,
> however, that their concerns are not about concern for animals as they
> claim. Their only concern is their own smug and back-patting
> self-righteousness and their desire to claim moral uprightness. Their
> objections to meat eating overlook the fact that many meals come as a
> result of the death of the 1001st animal, while only a few meals come
> from the deaths of the first 1000.
>
> Veganism and ARA are not about compassion for animals. "Objecting to the
> 1001st Death" proves it. >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: Dec 05, 2004 Posts: 15
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Reynard" <reynard DeleteThis @hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bcl6r0tcksjt8cieevil01ciob6mloaj3i@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:33:21 GMT, usual suspect <support DeleteThis @our.troops>
wrote:
> >Reynard wrote:
> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:10:50 GMT, usual suspect <support DeleteThis @our.troops>
wrote:
> >>
> >>>Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral suffering
> >>>and death that results from their own food production.
> >>
> >> Ipse dixit and false.
> >
> >Your posting history on the issue proves it.
>
> Exactly.
Yes, exactly. You keep proving that you trivialize the collateral suffering
and death that results from your own food production. all the time. You do
an even more clumsy and ineffectual job of it than most deliberately stupid
"vegans". >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: Dec 05, 2004 Posts: 56
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:25:14 GMT, "Ted Bell" <ted.bell.TakeThisOut@philhendrie.show> wrote:
>"Reynard" <reynard.TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message news:bcl6r0tcksjt8cieevil01ciob6mloaj3i@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:33:21 GMT, usual suspect <support.TakeThisOut@our.troops>wrote:
>> >Reynard wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:10:50 GMT, usual suspect <support.TakeThisOut@our.troops>wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral suffering
>> >>>and death that results from their own food production.
>> >>
>> >> Ipse dixit and false.
>> >
>> >Your posting history on the issue proves it.
>>
>> Exactly.
>
>Yes, exactly.
Thank you. >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: Jun 18, 2004 Posts: 163
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Reynard" <reynard.TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0sj6r0p8u86bk8t81gr42stpl519c62kgn@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:10:29 GMT, dh_ld.TakeThisOut@nomail.com wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:42:27 +0000, Reynard <reynard.TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:10:50 GMT, usual suspect <support.TakeThisOut@our.troops>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral suffering
>>>>and death that results from their own food production.
>>>
>>>Ipse dixit and false.
>>
>> Grass raised animal products contribute to less wildlife
>> deaths, better wildlife habitat, and better lives for livestock
>> than soy or rice products. ·
>
> No, it doesn't. Grass fed beef accumulates collateral
> deaths like any other beef.
>
> [The Animal Damage Control (ADC) program
> is administered by the U.S. Department of
> Agriculture under its Animal and Plant Health
> Inspection Service (APHIS). One of ADC's
> biggest and most controversial activities is killing
> coyotes and other predators, primarily to protect
> western livestock.
============================
Well then fool. It's then proper to say that ALL veggies, even hand grown,
window box ones are doused with massive amounts of chemicals and sprays.
I see what you like about this idea, it's easier to lump all foods into one
category. Thanks for the inspriation, killer.
snip rest of ignorant spew.... >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: Dec 05, 2004 Posts: 15
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Stop changing the spelling of your stupid pseudonym back to the misspelling.
It's Retard, you retard.
"Retard" <retard.TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5po6r0lft1e7kp0ilka2aarjfdmj5g45li@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:25:14 GMT, "Ted Bell" <ted.bell.TakeThisOut@philhendrie.show>
wrote:
> >"Retard" <retard.TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bcl6r0tcksjt8cieevil01ciob6mloaj3i@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:33:21 GMT, usual suspect
<support.TakeThisOut@our.troops>wrote:
> >> >Reynard wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:10:50 GMT, usual suspect
<support.TakeThisOut@our.troops>wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral
suffering
> >> >>>and death that results from their own food production.
> >> >>
> >> >> Ipse dixit and false.
> >> >
> >> >Your posting history on the issue proves it.
> >>
> >> Exactly.
> >
> >Yes, exactly. You keep proving that you trivialize the collateral
suffering
> >and death that results from your own food production. all the time. You
do
> >an even more clumsy and ineffectual job of it than most deliberately
stupid
> >"vegans".
>
> Thank you.
I don't know why you'd thank me for pointing out that you trivialize
collateral suffering. It's not something of which you should be proud. You
shouldn't be proud of being clumsy and ineffectual, either. >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: Dec 05, 2004 Posts: 56
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 21:31:09 GMT, "rick etter" <stop.RemoveThis@stop.net> wrote:
>"Reynard" <reynard.RemoveThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message news:0sj6r0p8u86bk8t81gr42stpl519c62kgn@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:10:29 GMT, dh_ld.RemoveThis@nomail.com wrote:
>>>On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:42:27 +0000, Reynard <reynard.RemoveThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:10:50 GMT, usual suspect <support.RemoveThis@our.troops> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral suffering
>>>>>and death that results from their own food production.
>>>>
>>>>Ipse dixit and false.
>>>
>>> Grass raised animal products contribute to less wildlife
>>> deaths, better wildlife habitat, and better lives for livestock
>>> than soy or rice products. ·
>>
>> No, it doesn't. Grass fed beef accumulates collateral
>> deaths like any other beef.
>>
>> [The Animal Damage Control (ADC) program
>> is administered by the U.S. Department of
>> Agriculture under its Animal and Plant Health
>> Inspection Service (APHIS). One of ADC's
>> biggest and most controversial activities is killing
>> coyotes and other predators, primarily to protect
>> western livestock.
>============================
>Well then fool. It's then proper to say that ALL veggies, even hand grown,
>window box ones are doused with massive amounts of chemicals and sprays.
Non sequitur. You cannot conclude that, because grass fed
beef accumulates collateral deaths, then ALL vegetable
products accumulate them. Your conclusion doesn't logically
follow from your premise. >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: Dec 05, 2004 Posts: 56
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 22:04:54 GMT, "Jonathan Ball" <ted.bell.DeleteThis@philhendrie.show> wrote:
>"Reynard" <reynard.DeleteThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message news:5po6r0lft1e7kp0ilka2aarjfdmj5g45li@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:25:14 GMT, "Jonathan Ball" <ted.bell.DeleteThis@philhendrie.show>wrote:
>> >"Reynard" <reynard.DeleteThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message news:bcl6r0tcksjt8cieevil01ciob6mloaj3i@4ax.com...
>> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:33:21 GMT, usual suspect <support.DeleteThis@our.troops>wrote:
>> >> >Reynard wrote:
>> >> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:10:50 GMT, usual suspect <support.DeleteThis@our.troops>wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral
>> >> >>>suffering and death that results from their own food production.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Ipse dixit and false.
>> >> >
>> >> >Your posting history on the issue proves it.
>> >>
>> >> Exactly.
>> >
>> >Yes, exactly.
Thank you. >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: Jun 18, 2004 Posts: 163
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Reynard" <reynard.TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e727r0t9mhrkg79d97oh6n6ccog3ecdbo7@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 21:31:09 GMT, "rick etter" <stop.TakeThisOut@stop.net> wrote:
>>"Reynard" <reynard.TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:0sj6r0p8u86bk8t81gr42stpl519c62kgn@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:10:29 GMT, dh_ld.TakeThisOut@nomail.com wrote:
>>>>On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:42:27 +0000, Reynard <reynard.TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:10:50 GMT, usual suspect <support.TakeThisOut@our.troops>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral suffering
>>>>>>and death that results from their own food production.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ipse dixit and false.
>>>>
>>>> Grass raised animal products contribute to less wildlife
>>>> deaths, better wildlife habitat, and better lives for livestock
>>>> than soy or rice products. ·
>>>
>>> No, it doesn't. Grass fed beef accumulates collateral
>>> deaths like any other beef.
>>>
>>> [The Animal Damage Control (ADC) program
>>> is administered by the U.S. Department of
>>> Agriculture under its Animal and Plant Health
>>> Inspection Service (APHIS). One of ADC's
>>> biggest and most controversial activities is killing
>>> coyotes and other predators, primarily to protect
>>> western livestock.
>>============================
>>Well then fool. It's then proper to say that ALL veggies, even hand
>>grown,
>>window box ones are doused with massive amounts of chemicals and sprays.
>
> Non sequitur. You cannot conclude that, because grass fed
> beef accumulates collateral deaths, then ALL vegetable
> products accumulate them. Your conclusion doesn't logically
> follow from your premise.
=====================
It's your logic that is off, killer. Your make the staement that all
grass-fed beef involves killing coyotes/predators, when that is not true.
By your (il)logic then, because some veggies are doused with chemicals from
seed to store, then all veggies are doused with chemicals from seed to
store. Or even better, let's use the millions of birds killed by ADC to
protect veggie crops. Because birds are killed to protect some crops, then
all crops kill birds for protection. >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: Dec 05, 2004 Posts: 15
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:00 am
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Stop changing the spelling of your stupid pseudonym back to the misspelling.
It's Retard, you retard.
"Retard" <retard RemoveThis @hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rf27r0hm00aqnfb6a6s5l9k35vpt482i8r@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 22:04:54 GMT, Ted Bell <ted.bell RemoveThis @philhendrie.show>
wrote:
> >"Retard" <retard RemoveThis @hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5po6r0lft1e7kp0ilka2aarjfdmj5g45li@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:25:14 GMT, Ted Bell
<ted.bell RemoveThis @philhendrie.show>wrote:
> >> >"Retard" <retard RemoveThis @hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bcl6r0tcksjt8cieevil01ciob6mloaj3i@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 18:33:21 GMT, usual suspect
<support RemoveThis @our.troops>wrote:
> >> >> >Retard wrote:
> >> >> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:10:50 GMT, usual suspect
<support RemoveThis @our.troops>wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>Vegans and animal rights activists trivialize the collateral
> >> >> >>>suffering and death that results from their own food production.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Ipse dixit and false.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Your posting history on the issue proves it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Exactly.
> >> >
> >> >Yes, exactly. You keep proving that you trivialize the collateral
suffering
> >> >and death that results from your own food production. all the time.
You do
> >> >an even more clumsy and ineffectual job of it than most deliberately
stupid
> >> >"vegans".
>
>
> Thank you.
Whatever floats your boat, munchkin. >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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Since: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 23
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> Such an argument, which I now call "Objecting to the 1001st Death," relies
> ENTIRELY on moral relativism. It avoids personal culpability for one's
> actions and ultimately becomes a diversion from the issue vegans and ARAs
> raise about animal cruelty.
I'm not sure who wrote this nonsense, I have already pointed out the
fallacies.
1) if numerous farmers are engaged in the systematic killing of animals in
veggie fields (or elsewhere), whether their food is eaten by vegans or not,
then this simply supports the need for farmers to go vegan and stop such
practices
2) veganism isn't a numbers game, it is about making choices that seek to
reduce _animal exploitation_, and vegans acknowledge that collateral deaths
are a part of all human activities, we simply seek to avoid such where it is
_practical and possible_ - it is both practical and possible NOT to eat
meat, or reduce meat intake, however humans have to eat plant foods to be
healthy, and furthermore, increasing meat consumption further precipitates
an environmental catastrophy
3) pasture ranging cattle do not tiptoe through the meadows, they trample
other creatures and ingest them by the thousand in every mouth of grass,
they compete with other herbivores and produce clouds of methane, and 90% of
the plant energy they ingest doesn't go to the table
4) vegans advocate veganic agriculture, free of any pesticides and dangerous
machinery - a veganic food supply would cause minimal collateral death, and
is free of animal exploitation - the same cannot be said for meat
5) all of the above points are factual, whereas there is no factual basis
for the claim that eating beef lowers total numbers of animal deaths
6) "moral relativism" is a nonsense concept - I would rather live with
people who want less suffering and explotation, even if that only amounted
to 1 death less, that 1 life is all that animal has, and even if no animals
were saved, it would still be a worthy ambition
If enough people were vegans, then that would in turn create sufficient
market to produce veganic food. All arguments that point to there being
avoidable animal suffering and exploitation _strengthen the vegan argument_.
They do not weaken it, as suggested by this thread and others similar.
John >> Stay informed about: Vegan/ARA Fallacy: Objecting to the 1001st Death |
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