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Bill Stock

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Since: May 29, 2005
Posts: 233



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:09 pm
Post subject: UPS and heater(s)
Archived from groups: rec>aquaria>tech (more info?)

I had another power outage last weekend (4+ hours), so I finally broke down
and bought a couple of refurbed UPSs. They should last a while as they are
36 amp hours each. The Goldfish tank only uses 24 watts (2 Fluval 304s), as
I won't connect the heater or lights. But I was wondering about the Tropical
tank, since batteries last exponentially longer under reduced load. Would I
not be better to have one 100 watt heater running twice as long, rather than
the normal two 100 watt heaters. In fact I was thinking about replacing the
two 100 watt heaters with a decent digital heater and leaving one of the 100
watt heaters in the tank as a backup. I would set the backup below the
threshold of the main heater (say 75°F) and connect it to the UPS. This way
the heater would not come on until the power had been off for a while.

Also do I need to connect the UGF filter to the UPS or can the bacteria
survive in the gravel for a while?

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Ian Stirling

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Since: Jun 22, 2005
Posts: 15



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:18 pm
Post subject: Re: UPS and heater(s) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Bill Stock <Me7 RemoveThis @privacy.net> wrote:
> I had another power outage last weekend (4+ hours), so I finally broke down
> and bought a couple of refurbed UPSs. They should last a while as they are
> 36 amp hours each. The Goldfish tank only uses 24 watts (2 Fluval 304s), as
> I won't connect the heater or lights. But I was wondering about the Tropical
> tank, since batteries last exponentially longer under reduced load. Would I
> not be better to have one 100 watt heater running twice as long, rather than
> the normal two 100 watt heaters. In fact I was thinking about replacing the
> two 100 watt heaters with a decent digital heater and leaving one of the 100
> watt heaters in the tank as a backup. I would set the backup below the
> threshold of the main heater (say 75?F) and connect it to the UPS. This way
> the heater would not come on until the power had been off for a while.

100, 200, or 400W heaters will use the same amount of energy at the same
temperature, if they can maintain the temperature at all.
100 gallons of water maintains its temperature for a long while, and most
fish are fairly tolerant if it's once.
I would not have used UPSs, they arn't really the right tool, for small loads,
as the battery is sized to discharge through the inverter in some half an
hour, but the inverter will typically use 5%-10% of its nameplate power as
parasitic power.
So, with a 600W UPS, you may be looking at 80W draw from the battery,
rather than 30W, which you might get with a small inverter.

I'd have gone with a deep-discharge rated battery, and a small inverter,
combined with a small battery charger to keep it charged.

Not to say it won't work of course.
A tip, you may well find that you get better run-time if you daisychain the
UPSs, rather than having both powering seperate stuff.

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Rocco Moretti

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Since: Oct 09, 2004
Posts: 86



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:18 pm
Post subject: Re: UPS and heater(s) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ian Stirling wrote:

> 100, 200, or 400W heaters will use the same amount of energy at the same
> temperature, if they can maintain the temperature at all.

Well, it'll depend on the efficiency of the heaters. A more efficient
heater will use most of the electricity to heat the tank, whereas a less
efficient heater will use less of the electricity for heating the tank,
and the rest will be ... wasted ... as ... heat.

Hmmm.

Never mind then. :)
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Bill Stock

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Since: May 29, 2005
Posts: 233



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:18 pm
Post subject: Re: UPS and heater(s) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Ian Stirling" <root DeleteThis @mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:42d2d40a$0$6314$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> Bill Stock <Me7 DeleteThis @privacy.net> wrote:
>> I had another power outage last weekend (4+ hours), so I finally broke
>> down
>> and bought a couple of refurbed UPSs. They should last a while as they
>> are
>> 36 amp hours each. The Goldfish tank only uses 24 watts (2 Fluval 304s),
>> as
>> I won't connect the heater or lights. But I was wondering about the
>> Tropical
>> tank, since batteries last exponentially longer under reduced load. Would
>> I
>> not be better to have one 100 watt heater running twice as long, rather
>> than
>> the normal two 100 watt heaters. In fact I was thinking about replacing
>> the
>> two 100 watt heaters with a decent digital heater and leaving one of the
>> 100
>> watt heaters in the tank as a backup. I would set the backup below the
>> threshold of the main heater (say 75?F) and connect it to the UPS. This
>> way
>> the heater would not come on until the power had been off for a while.
>
> 100, 200, or 400W heaters will use the same amount of energy at the same
> temperature, if they can maintain the temperature at all.
> 100 gallons of water maintains its temperature for a long while, and most
> fish are fairly tolerant if it's once.

Not arguing that 100 @ twice the time period is the same as 200 @ one time
unit. But if you look at the run time chart for most UPS you will see that
the last MUCH longer at smaller loads, i.e. not a linear increase. For
example my UPS lasts 8 minutes at 900 watts and 301 minutes at 50 watts. But
900/50*8 =144 NOT 301. I actually ran a test on the weekend @ 25 watts and I
got 8.5 hours out of the existing batteries, which are only holding about an
80% charge.

> I would not have used UPSs, they arn't really the right tool, for small
> loads,
> as the battery is sized to discharge through the inverter in some half an
> hour, but the inverter will typically use 5%-10% of its nameplate power as
> parasitic power.
> So, with a 600W UPS, you may be looking at 80W draw from the battery,
> rather than 30W, which you might get with a small inverter.

I looked at the Inverter/Battery setup, but many of the inverters put out
POOR waveforms, which are detrimental to many powerheads. The UPS I bought
has a fairly good reputation for a 'cleaner' sinewave. Although I may still
go this route for powering up the fridge/freezer for longer blackouts.

> I'd have gone with a deep-discharge rated battery, and a small inverter,
> combined with a small battery charger to keep it charged.
>
> Not to say it won't work of course.
> A tip, you may well find that you get better run-time if you daisychain
> the
> UPSs, rather than having both powering seperate stuff.
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Charles

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Since: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 217



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:31 pm
Post subject: Re: UPS and heater(s) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:31:58 -0500, Rocco Moretti
<roccomoretti RemoveThis @hotpop.com> wrote:

>Ian Stirling wrote:
>
>> 100, 200, or 400W heaters will use the same amount of energy at the same
>> temperature, if they can maintain the temperature at all.
>
>Well, it'll depend on the efficiency of the heaters. A more efficient
>heater will use most of the electricity to heat the tank, whereas a less
>efficient heater will use less of the electricity for heating the tank,
>and the rest will be ... wasted ... as ... heat.
>
>Hmmm.
>
>Never mind then. :)



Well said.


--
Charles

Does not play well with others.
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mark.howard10

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Since: May 21, 2005
Posts: 7



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:20 pm
Post subject: Re: UPS and heater(s) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Personally, I'd concentrate on keeping the UGF fed with oxygen as a priority
over the heating (unless you live in a very cold place). Oxygen starvation
in the gravel will quickly kill the bacteria in the filter. The last time I
lost power for a few hours, the temperature only dropped a few degrees but I
still lost a couple of fish a few days later.

Mark
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Bill Stock

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Since: May 29, 2005
Posts: 233



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:55 pm
Post subject: Re: UPS and heater(s) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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<mark.howard10 DeleteThis @ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:42d4190c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net...
> Personally, I'd concentrate on keeping the UGF fed with oxygen as a
> priority
> over the heating (unless you live in a very cold place). Oxygen starvation
> in the gravel will quickly kill the bacteria in the filter. The last time
> I
> lost power for a few hours, the temperature only dropped a few degrees but
> I
> still lost a couple of fish a few days later.
>
> Mark

Thanks Mark the Powerheads on the UGF don't draw much current, so they I
have them on there now. The temp does get down to the low 50s during the
winter months, hence the concern about the heaters. I guess the tank should
hold it's temp for a while though, even at 50°F.
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Pszemol

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Since: Dec 03, 2003
Posts: 19



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:13 pm
Post subject: Re: UPS and heater(s) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Bill Stock" <Me7.TakeThisOut@Privacy.net> wrote in message
news:-PSdnXtlXtzmlk7fRVn-sg@rogers.com...
> I looked at the Inverter/Battery setup, but many of the inverters put out
> POOR waveforms, which are detrimental to many powerheads. The UPS
> I bought has a fairly good reputation for a 'cleaner' sinewave. Although I
> may still go this route for powering up the fridge/freezer for longer
> blackouts.

I would not be concerned with sine/square wave...
I would check if this UPS can be used for the heater at all.
Most of UPSes I know do not let you turn on the device when on battery mode.
OR, they turn themselves off when detect a no load situation on battery
mode.
And this might be a problem because your heater will work in on/off mode...

I would avoid puting heaters/lights on backup power.
They are not needed in emergency situations.
Water circulation/gasses exchange is much more important.
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Pszemol

External


Since: Dec 03, 2003
Posts: 19



(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:24 pm
Post subject: Re: UPS and heater(s) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Bill Stock" <Me7 DeleteThis @Privacy.net> wrote in message
news:QqednWz2Sp8K-0nfRVn-qQ@rogers.com...
> Thanks Mark the Powerheads on the UGF don't draw much current, so they I
> have them on there now. The temp does get down to the low 50s during the
> winter months, hence the concern about the heaters. I guess the tank
> should hold it's temp for a while though, even at 50°F.

My God!
Where do you keep your fish tank if you have the room temperature at 50F ?
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Bill Stock

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Since: May 29, 2005
Posts: 233



(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:22 pm
Post subject: Re: UPS and heater(s) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Pszemol" <Pszemol RemoveThis @PolBox.com> wrote in message
news:db3ppp.30c.1@poczta.onet.pl...
> "Bill Stock" <Me7 RemoveThis @Privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:QqednWz2Sp8K-0nfRVn-qQ@rogers.com...
>> Thanks Mark the Powerheads on the UGF don't draw much current, so they I
>> have them on there now. The temp does get down to the low 50s during the
>> winter months, hence the concern about the heaters. I guess the tank
>> should hold it's temp for a while though, even at 50°F.
>
> My God!
> Where do you keep your fish tank if you have the room temperature at 50F ?

LOL, we keep the house at 60 at night, so the basement usually gets down to
55 or so, but can get lower on cool nights. It's cheaper to heat the fish.
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Ian Stirling

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Since: Jun 22, 2005
Posts: 15



(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:25 am
Post subject: Re: UPS and heater(s) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Bill Stock <Me7.DeleteThis@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> <mark.howard10.DeleteThis@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:42d4190c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net...
>> Personally, I'd concentrate on keeping the UGF fed with oxygen as a
>> priority
>> over the heating (unless you live in a very cold place). Oxygen starvation
<snip>
> Thanks Mark the Powerheads on the UGF don't draw much current, so they I
> have them on there now. The temp does get down to the low 50s during the
> winter months, hence the concern about the heaters. I guess the tank should
> hold it's temp for a while though, even at 50?F.

I'd wonder if I'd insulated the tanks as well as possible, first.
Stick 1" of polystyrene on the back and sides, and bottom if not visible,
to form a backdrop, and keep it warmer.
Depending on the design, insulating the top may also be possible.
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Nikki Casali

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Since: Nov 08, 2004
Posts: 220



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:30 pm
Post subject: Re: UPS and heater(s) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Charles Spitzer wrote:

> "Rene Brehmer" <piv.DeleteThis@metalbunny.net> wrote in message
> news:1y1z4tavtfbd1.2rv2spe7j0jh$.dlg@40tude.net...
>
>>Documented research indicate that on Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:31:58 -0500,
>>Rocco
>>Moretti wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Ian Stirling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>100, 200, or 400W heaters will use the same amount of energy at the same
>>>>temperature, if they can maintain the temperature at all.
>>>
>>>Well, it'll depend on the efficiency of the heaters. A more efficient
>>>heater will use most of the electricity to heat the tank, whereas a less
>>>efficient heater will use less of the electricity for heating the tank,
>>>and the rest will be ... wasted ... as ... heat.
>>>
>>>Hmmm.
>>>
>>>Never mind then. :)
>>
>>The correct statement is that the more efficient heaters dissipate more
>>joules of heat per watt of power consumed, than the less efficient
>>heaters.
>
>
> where does the wasted power go in inefficient heaters? if you can answer
> that one, you've invented perpetual motion machines.

Possibly radio waves or light. But more seriously, what if the mains
leads of the heater are too thin to carry the current efficiently and
dissipate heat themselves? But that doesn't mean the heater itself is
inefficient unless you regard the heater and leads as one single unit.

Nikki
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