The Soul of a Kitten

I sometimes cry when I think of Chemosh, the Abomination of the
Moabites. He was the tiny black kitten David and I adopted when
we had no fixed address in San Francisco. He never got along with
Max, Jonah's cat. He ran away when I brought him to live with
Jonah. Later in Texas, Max ran away because Thecla (my female cat)
kept having kittens and Max did not like the kittens. We had a lot
of kittens in CA and TX both, as I recall. All of them we found
homes for on our own. I wonder if they were all sterilized or if
they were allowed to breed. Thecla's kittens were very healthy, none
of them ever died. She weighed barely 5 pounds but she was brave
enough to face down racoons and opossums. I hope her genes have
survived in the cat genepool.

David has a soul as pure as yours, Ilya. I've seen him cry over
Chemosh. For that matter Jonah has cried over Max.

Men who say they don't cry over kittens lie.

Evil does not exist.
 >> Stay informed about: The Soul of a Kitten 

On 17 Nov 2004 09:22:54 -0800, drr0cket DeleteThis @yahoo.com (Bodhisattvacat) wrote:

>The people who say that animals don't have souls, or that animals are
>like machines, don't know what they are talking about. Animals have
>much to teach us about love, compassion, forgiveness and goodness.
>
>I had a beautiful black kitten named Aramis. He used to kiss me,
>rubbing his mouth against my lips and my face. His uncle Equicetum was
>Layo's empath. When we were about to move from Takoma Park to
>California, Equicetum ran out and was adopted by the neighbors.
>
>But I do not know what happened to Aramis. When I lost my job at
>Oracle, Rick, Layo and I headed to Portland and dropped the cats off
>at the house that belonged to her deceased aunt's boyfriend. When we
>took them there, Aramis kissed me again, and that was the last time I
>saw him and his four brothers. I think they were put to sleep.

That is too bad. One time I gave a kid $40 for a puppy, because it
was tied in his back yard slowly dying of exposer. I mentioned to them
one day that it was shivering all of the time....for weeks without ever
stopping...during the day is wasn't as bad but still he was shivering
....at night it got convulsive...then the weather got cold. I would go in
my nice warm place and have a nice warm meal then get in a nice
warm bed, and that poor puppy was out there shivering...for over a
month now. I asked his uncle several times if the kid would sell it,
but no. He had a bowl with some dry food in it, and a water bowl,
and that was all. I would warm up some tender meat meat and stuff,
and create a gravy and take it over to him at night. He seemed glad
to get it, but didn't eat much. They did let me make him a smaller box
to go in with a light to provide some warmth. He didn't come out of
there. Finally I saw the kid who actually owned him out back one
day, and said: "Do you want to sell that puppy?" He said nah. So
I said, "I'll give you fourty dollars for him." He said "Umm...okay...he's
a she though". At first she could hardly walk. The next day she could
get around considerably better, but still had trouble for the next
couple of days. She didn't even act like a dog though...it was like
she was in a trance, and you had to work hard to get her to pay
attention to anything, which is the opposite of how dogs usually
behave. She urinated all the time, and I really didn't want a dog
anyway. So I took her to a local animal hospital, and they said
they'd get her fixed up and try to find a home for her...thinking
that if they didn't find a home for her in a month or so I might take
her back. I went by a week later to see how things were going,
and they said, "We killed her". What?!?! When? "The day after
you dropped her off." At that point I think I got a feeling similar
to you with your cats. They said that she was dehydrated and
malnourished. I pointed out that we knew that when I left her
with them. If they were just going to kill her, they could have at
least let me know so I could consider other options.

>Today I thought about him and broke out in tears. I said, "I am sorry,
>baby. I did not mean to do this to you." As I was crying, he and his
>brothers appeared in spirit form. Aramis was still loving and joyful.
>I kept crying, "You are so much better than me. You are so much better
>than any of us."

He wouldn't be if he could get hold of some baby birds, or some
mice, or.....

>I told him to go where he would be happy. He lingered around to teach
>me what he knew and then crossed over into the light.

What did he know?
 >> Stay informed about: The Soul of a Kitten 

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:08:10 +0000 (UTC), redsonja DeleteThis @liii.com (She Devil With A Rubber Chicken) wrote:

>The loss of an animal friend is always fierce. I am sorry for
>your loss. For all those who say that animals have no souls,

Genesis 9:5 - "I will demand an accounting from every animal."

That's the only thing in the Bible that I'm aware of which suggests
there might be an afterlife for animals. If anyone knows of more,
I'd very much like to learn about it.

>I say
>that might be sour grapes coming from those who have aught to lose...
>
>...for animals never lie.
>
>Here's a poem I wrote for someone who lost a kitty friend here, and
>I bring it out whenever someone loses a cat companion. I am a Freya's
>gydhia

What's that?

>and cats are especially sacred to Her, so I was given this
>poem to comfort those who lose their kitties.
>
>In the Summerlands
>Golden light filters down through the trees
>And our friends are chasing little white butterflies
>Batting at heavy-hanging flowers
>Crying challenge to jaybird and squirrel
>Rolling in patches of catnip
>Skittering after rodents
>Falling all over each other in play
>And waiting for us...
 >> Stay informed about: The Soul of a Kitten 

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:01:52 GMT, playing RemoveThis @work.edu (Doug Bashford) wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 18 Nov, dh_ld RemoveThis @nomail.com said
>
>
>> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, redsonja RemoveThis @liii.com (She Devil With A Rubber Chicken) wrote:
>>
>> >The loss of an animal friend is always fierce. I am sorry for
>> >your loss. For all those who say that animals have no souls,
>>
>> Genesis 9:5 - "I will demand an accounting from every animal."
>
>If memory serves, that's the first Covenant.
>God talking with Noah, right after The Flood?

Right.

>Interesting chapter, to say the least:
>A contract between Man, God, Earth, and animals.
>It's never taught, so is not part of the religion.
>But the rainbow is proof it's still a binding
>contract. On penalty of human destruction.
>
>Main point IMO: one does not enter into a contract
>with toys. (I suspect that confusing chapter has
>been hashed to conform with later doctrine.)
>
>> That's the only thing in the Bible that I'm aware of which suggests
>> there might be an afterlife for animals. If anyone knows of more,
>> I'd very much like to learn about it.
>
>I think its Gen:1 where God says sumthin like:
>To all the beasts I give every green plant as food.
>Not quite what you want, but still....not toys.

It's right before what I quoted, that he says we can eat animals.
The veg*ns I've argued with about that want us to believe it's a
false God who says we can eat meat. He mentions it first right here:

Gen 9
3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as
I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will
demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man,
too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

Interesting that right after he says we can eat them, he suggests
that there may be life after death for animals as well as humans.
I've been assured that the lives of animals raised for food are
not to be taken into consideration, so no doubt people of such
a view would not take any after-lives into consideration. I disagree
strongly with their view.

>Then their's a parable with Jesus, has talking sheep who
>go to heavan, but that's just a parable. Has Hell too,
>but again, that's just part of a parable.

Come to think of it though, "living creatures" are mentioned
numerous times.

Ezekiel 1:20
Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would
rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in
the wheels.

Ezekiel 10:20
These were the living creatures I had seen beneath the God of Israel
by the Kebar River, and I realized that they were cherubim.

Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with
eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop
saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is,
and is to come."


Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center
of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He
had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God
sent out into all the earth.

>(Hell for the common sinner (such as murderer) is not
>Biblical. Hell is only for lying preachers and fallen
>angels, and such. The religion doesn't teach that
>either.)
>
>
>--Doug

At this point I can't agree with your interpretation, due to Rev 20:12-15

Rev 19
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies
gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse
and his army.
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who
had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs
he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast
and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the
fiery lake of burning sulfur.
21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the
mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves
on their flesh.

Rev 20
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning
sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They
will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and
books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life.
The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in
the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up
the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to
what he had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire
is the second death.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown
into the lake of fire.
 >> Stay informed about: The Soul of a Kitten 

St-Jennifer-of-the-Knife <mlideen RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<419CFE34.9020504 RemoveThis @hotmail.com>...
> David has a soul as pure as yours, Ilya. I've seen him cry over
> Chemosh. For that matter Jonah has cried over Max.

Fine, fine. I won't say bad things about them any more.
 >> Stay informed about: The Soul of a Kitten 

drr0cket.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com (Bodhisattvacat) wrote in message news:<4f2532f6.0411170922.4dc1b447.TakeThisOut@posting.google.com>...
> The people who say that animals don't have souls, or that animals are
> like machines, don't know what they are talking about. Animals have
> much to teach us about love, compassion, forgiveness and good
Logical conclusion: stop eating them.

So my vaguely related story: I was walking home from church last week
and saw a dead fox. I live in the outer suburbs and as a result there
are enough preserves and corn fields that every once and a while you
see coyotes and foxes. My boyfriend was surprised that I actually see
constellations out here. In debates over the ethicalness of eating
road kill (you know your friends are crusty when...). I wonder if the
person was even aware of hitting the animal, if they felt any remorse
that their need for speed and convenience cost an animal its life. Had
I been riding my bike, I probably wouldn't have noticed and seeing my
family eat meat never moves me to tears.

There was no point or real ending to this story.

--Nothing
 >> Stay informed about: The Soul of a Kitten 

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:55:32 -0500, St-Jennifer-of-the-Knife
<mlideen.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>I sometimes cry when I think of Chemosh, the Abomination of the
>Moabites.

I didn't do a very good job keeping it together last night when we
listened to "Billy, don't be a Hero", "Seasons of the Sun", etc.

"Goodbye Papa, it's hard to die
When all the birds are singing in the sky
Now that the spring is in the air
Little children everywhere
Think of me and I'll be there"
 >> Stay informed about: The Soul of a Kitten 

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, dh_ld DeleteThis @nomail.com said
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 (Doug Bashford) wrote:
> > On Thu, 18 Nov, dh_ld DeleteThis @nomail.com said
> >> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, (She Devil With A Rubber Chicken) wrote:

[...]

> >> That's the only thing in the Bible that I'm aware of which suggests
> >> there might be an afterlife for animals. If anyone knows of more,
> >> I'd very much like to learn about it.

> >I think its Gen:1 where God says sumthin like:
> >To all the beasts I give every green plant as food.
> >Not quite what you want, but still....not toys.

Here's the King James, but the N.I.V. is more clear:

Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth,
and to every fowl of the air,
and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
wherein there is life, I have given every green
herb for meat: and it was so.

>
> It's right before what I quoted, that he says we can eat animals.

If you notice, that chapter, Genesis 9, is talking EXACTLY about
what Genesis 1 says above, etc. You cant understand one without
the other.

> The veg*ns I've argued with about that want us to believe it's a
> false God who says we can eat meat. He mentions it first right here:
>
> Gen 9
> 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as
> I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
> 4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
> 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will
> demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man,
> too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
>
> Interesting that right after he says we can eat them, he suggests
> that there may be life after death for animals as well as humans.
> I've been assured that the lives of animals raised for food are
> not to be taken into consideration, so no doubt people of such
> a view would not take any after-lives into consideration. I disagree
> strongly with their view.
>
> >Then their's a parable with Jesus, has talking sheep who
> >go to heavan, but that's just a parable. Has Hell too,
> >but again, that's just part of a parable.

> Come to think of it though, "living creatures" are mentioned
> numerous times.

Yes.

[...]


> >(Hell for the common sinner (such as murderer) is not
> >Biblical. Hell is only for lying preachers and fallen
> >angels, and such. The religion doesn't teach that
> >either.)
> >
> >
> >--Doug

Hell came from 400 years of the King James mistranslations
of "the grave" and such as Hell. Also mistranslated was Hades
and another crematorium in Jeuruselem. These crematoriums
(garbage pits) had eternal fires. This does NOT imply
eternal burning of the contents. They burned up,
that was their function.

There was a myth from Zoroastrianism which the the
Wandering Jews seemingly picked up while in exile
in Babalon. It was a well known myth like our
Santa Clause or Easter Bunny. Hell to a Tee!
Hence, the talking sheep parable....

>
> At this point I can't agree with your
> interpretation, due to Rev 20:12-15

Hell I define as eternal torment. Agree?

False prophets and devils (below) ARE lying preachers and
fallen angels, and such. These are not common sinners.
(All this is very consistant with the OT as well.)

> Rev 19
> 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies
> gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse
> and his army.
> 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who
> had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs
> he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast
> and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the
> fiery lake of burning sulfur.
> 21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the
> mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves
> on their flesh.
>
> Rev 20
> 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning
> sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They
> will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And there you have Hell. Eternal torment.
No common sinners.

Death and Hades (below), are one and the same.
Nowhere does Hades mean eternal torment.
It's been mistranslated for 400 years.
Check the modern translations, such as NIV.


> 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and
> books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life.
> The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in
> the books.
> 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up
> the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to
> what he had done.
> 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire
> is the second death.

Poof! They burn up. Death.

> 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the
> book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Poof!

Want more proof? This one is common sense
proof. First, Jews don't believe in Hell,
so we can rule out the Old Testament (OT).
Second, is the extreme importance of eternal
life (heaven) in the New Testament (NT).
Over and over again, the NT says if you are
good: eternal life, if you are bad: death.
(oversimplified)

Plain and simple. Over and over and over.
Eternal life, V. death.
Eternal life, V. its exact opposite.
Eternal life, or perish. Over and over.

The most well known verse in Christianity,
the summery of Christianity itself, agrees.
John 3:16. Are you calling that a liar too?

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him
should not perish, but have eternal life.

So how plain do you want it?

3:16 For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.

How plain do you want it?

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved.

More? There's tons. Here's a few:
No Hell: John 5:24+, 5:47-64 8:24, 10:28,
11:25, 12:25,44-50,.....

....and it's all totally consistant.
Over and over and over.
Perhaps they just forgot to mention
eternal torment?

--Doug


--
"Government exists for the interests of the governed,
not for the governors. As Benjamin Franklin wrote,
'In free governments the rulers are the servants,
and the people; their superiors and sovereigns.'"
-- Thomas Jefferson
 >> Stay informed about: The Soul of a Kitten 

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:03:48 GMT, playing DeleteThis @work.edu (Doug Bashford) wrote:

>
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, dh_ld DeleteThis @nomail.com said
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 (Doug Bashford) wrote:
>> > On Thu, 18 Nov, dh_ld DeleteThis @nomail.com said
>> >> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, (She Devil With A Rubber Chicken) wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> >> That's the only thing in the Bible that I'm aware of which suggests
>> >> there might be an afterlife for animals. If anyone knows of more,
>> >> I'd very much like to learn about it.
>
>> >I think its Gen:1 where God says sumthin like:
>> >To all the beasts I give every green plant as food.
>> >Not quite what you want, but still....not toys.
>
>Here's the King James, but the N.I.V. is more clear:
>
>Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth,
>and to every fowl of the air,
>and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
>wherein there is life, I have given every green
>herb for meat: and it was so.
>
>>
>> It's right before what I quoted, that he says we can eat animals.
>
>If you notice, that chapter, Genesis 9, is talking EXACTLY about
>what Genesis 1 says above, etc. You cant understand one without
>the other.
>
>> The veg*ns I've argued with about that want us to believe it's a
>> false God who says we can eat meat. He mentions it first right here:
>>
>> Gen 9
>> 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as
>> I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
>> 4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
>> 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will
>> demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man,
>> too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
>>
>> Interesting that right after he says we can eat them, he suggests
>> that there may be life after death for animals as well as humans.
>> I've been assured that the lives of animals raised for food are
>> not to be taken into consideration, so no doubt people of such
>> a view would not take any after-lives into consideration. I disagree
>> strongly with their view.
>>
>> >Then their's a parable with Jesus, has talking sheep who
>> >go to heavan, but that's just a parable. Has Hell too,
>> >but again, that's just part of a parable.
>
>> Come to think of it though, "living creatures" are mentioned
>> numerous times.
>
>Yes.
>
> [...]
>
>
>> >(Hell for the common sinner (such as murderer) is not
>> >Biblical. Hell is only for lying preachers and fallen
>> >angels, and such. The religion doesn't teach that
>> >either.)
>> >
>> >
>> >--Doug
>
>Hell came from 400 years of the King James mistranslations
>of "the grave" and such as Hell. Also mistranslated was Hades
>and another crematorium in Jeuruselem. These crematoriums
>(garbage pits) had eternal fires. This does NOT imply
>eternal burning of the contents. They burned up,
>that was their function.
>
>There was a myth from Zoroastrianism which the the
>Wandering Jews seemingly picked up while in exile
>in Babalon. It was a well known myth like our
>Santa Clause or Easter Bunny. Hell to a Tee!
>Hence, the talking sheep parable....
>
>>
>> At this point I can't agree with your
>> interpretation, due to Rev 20:12-15
>
>Hell I define as eternal torment. Agree?

That's how I think of it, but if it exists or will exist there's no way
of knowing if my impression is correct, or if yours is, or anyone's.

>False prophets and devils (below) ARE lying preachers and
>fallen angels, and such. These are not common sinners.
>(All this is very consistant with the OT as well.)
>
>> Rev 19
>> 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies
>> gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse
>> and his army.
>> 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who
>> had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs
>> he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast
>> and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the
>> fiery lake of burning sulfur.
>> 21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the
>> mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves
>> on their flesh.
>>
>> Rev 20
>> 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning
>> sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They
>> will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
>
>And there you have Hell. Eternal torment.
>No common sinners.
>
>Death and Hades (below), are one and the same.
>Nowhere does Hades mean eternal torment.

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire."
"They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

>It's been mistranslated for 400 years.
>Check the modern translations, such as NIV.
>
>
>> 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and
>> books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life.
>> The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in
>> the books.
>> 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up
>> the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to
>> what he had done.
>> 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire
>> is the second death.
>
>Poof! They burn up. Death.
>
>> 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the
>> book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
>
>Poof!

It doesn't say poof. It says "They will be tormented
day and night for ever and ever."

>Want more proof? This one is common sense
>proof. First, Jews don't believe in Hell,
>so we can rule out the Old Testament (OT).
>Second, is the extreme importance of eternal
>life (heaven) in the New Testament (NT).
>Over and over again, the NT says if you are
>good: eternal life, if you are bad: death.
>(oversimplified)

More than oversimplified. It says you must believe in
Jesus, not be "good".

>Plain and simple. Over and over and over.
>Eternal life, V. death.
>Eternal life, V. its exact opposite.
>Eternal life, or perish. Over and over.
>
>The most well known verse in Christianity,
>the summery of Christianity itself, agrees.
>John 3:16. Are you calling that a liar too?
>
>John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him
>should not perish, but have eternal life.
>
>So how plain do you want it?
>
>3:16 For God so loved the world,
>that he gave his only begotten Son,
>that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
>but have everlasting life.
>
>How plain do you want it?

Plain enough to make the point you're trying to make. Nothing
you've presented so far says being good will qualify for eternal
life, and nothing you've presented so far encourages me to believe
that Hell is reserved only for Satan, fallen angels, false prophets,
and who/what ever else you believe it might be restricted to.

>3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
>but that the world through him might be saved.
>
> More? There's tons. Here's a few:
>No Hell: John 5:24+, 5:47-64 8:24, 10:28,
>11:25, 12:25,44-50,.....
>
>...and it's all totally consistant.
>Over and over and over.
>Perhaps they just forgot to mention
>eternal torment?
>
>--Doug

Apparently not:
"They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
 >> Stay informed about: The Soul of a Kitten 

In <mah2q0dmarqbtf7nj4jnag7u76v7oqhrf9 DeleteThis @4ax.com>
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:03:29 GMT, dh_ld DeleteThis @nomail.com said about:
Re: The Soul of a Kitten


> On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:03:48 GMT, playing DeleteThis @work.edu (Doug Bashford) wrote:
>
> >
> > On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, dh_ld DeleteThis @nomail.com said
> >> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 (Doug Bashford) wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 18 Nov, dh_ld DeleteThis @nomail.com said
> >> >> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, (She Devil With A Rubber Chicken) wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> >> That's the only thing in the Bible that I'm aware of which suggests
> >> >> there might be an afterlife for animals. If anyone knows of more,
> >> >> I'd very much like to learn about it.
> >
> >> >I think its Gen:1 where God says sumthin like:
> >> >To all the beasts I give every green plant as food.
> >> >Not quite what you want, but still....not toys.
> >
> >Here's the King James, but the N.I.V. is more clear:
> >
> >Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth,
> >and to every fowl of the air,
> >and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
> >wherein there is life, I have given every green
> >herb for meat: and it was so.
> >
> >>
> >> It's right before what I quoted, that he says we can eat animals.
> >
> >If you notice, that chapter, Genesis 9, is talking EXACTLY about
> >what Genesis 1 says above, etc. You cant understand one without
> >the other.
> >
> >> The veg*ns I've argued with about that want us to believe it's a
> >> false God who says we can eat meat. He mentions it first right here:
> >>
> >> Gen 9
> >> 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as
> >> I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
> >> 4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
> >> 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will
> >> demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man,
> >> too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
> >>
> >> Interesting that right after he says we can eat them, he suggests
> >> that there may be life after death for animals as well as humans.
> >> I've been assured that the lives of animals raised for food are
> >> not to be taken into consideration, so no doubt people of such
> >> a view would not take any after-lives into consideration. I disagree
> >> strongly with their view.
> >>
> >> >Then their's a parable with Jesus, has talking sheep who
> >> >go to heavan, but that's just a parable. Has Hell too,
> >> >but again, that's just part of a parable.
> >
> >> Come to think of it though, "living creatures" are mentioned
> >> numerous times.
> >
> >Yes.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >
> >> >(Hell for the common sinner (such as murderer) is not
> >> >Biblical. Hell is only for lying preachers and fallen
> >> >angels, and such. The religion doesn't teach that
> >> >either.)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--Doug
> >
> >Hell came from 400 years of the King James mistranslations
> >of "the grave" and such as Hell. Also mistranslated was Hades
> >and another crematorium in Jeuruselem. These crematoriums
> >(garbage pits) had eternal fires. This does NOT imply
> >eternal burning of the contents. They burned up,
> >that was their function.
> >
> >There was a myth from Zoroastrianism which the the
> >Wandering Jews seemingly picked up while in exile
> >in Babalon. It was a well known myth like our
> >Santa Clause or Easter Bunny. Hell to a Tee!
> >Hence, the talking sheep parable....
> >
> >>
> >> At this point I can't agree with your
> >> interpretation, due to Rev 20:12-15
> >
> >Hell I define as eternal torment. Agree?
>
> That's how I think of it, but if it exists or will exist there's no way
> of knowing if my impression is correct, or if yours is, or anyone's.
>
> >False prophets and devils (below) ARE lying preachers and
> >fallen angels, and such. These are not common sinners.
> >(All this is very consistant with the OT as well.)
> >
> >> Rev 19
> >> 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies
> >> gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse
> >> and his army.
> >> 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who
> >> had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs
> >> he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast
> >> and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the
> >> fiery lake of burning sulfur.
> >> 21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the
> >> mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves
> >> on their flesh.
> >>
> >> Rev 20
> >> 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning
> >> sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They
> >> will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
> >
> >And there you have Hell. Eternal torment.
> >No common sinners.
> >
> >Death and Hades (below), are one and the same.
> >Nowhere does Hades mean eternal torment.
>
> "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire."
> "They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
>
> >It's been mistranslated for 400 years.
> >Check the modern translations, such as NIV.
> >
> >
> >> 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and
> >> books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life.
> >> The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in
> >> the books.
> >> 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up
> >> the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to
> >> what he had done.
> >> 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire
> >> is the second death.
> >
> >Poof! They burn up. Death.
> >
> >> 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the
> >> book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
> >
> >Poof!
>
> It doesn't say poof. It says "They will be tormented
> day and night for ever and ever."

Adam and Eve will be tormented
day and night for ever and ever!!!???

No. But they are all in the Bible.
The question is, WHO "will be tormented
day and night for ever and ever."

Devils and such. NOT common sinners.
Are you denying this?

Do you know what Hades is? Have you EVER
done a study on it?

* Main Entry: Ha·des
* Function: noun
* Etymology: Greek HaidEs
* 1 : PLUTO
* 2 : the underground abode of the dead in Greek mythology
* 3 : SHEOL

Main Entry: She·ol
* Pronunciation: shE-'Ol, 'shE-"
* Function: noun
* Etymology: Hebrew She'Ol
* Date: 1599
* : the abode of the dead in early Hebrew thought

Where's the torment?

* The Judeo-Christian term hell comes from the Hebrew word "Sheol",
* which technically means landfill. The confusion over what this word
* actually means stems from the fact that the Hebrews really
* didn't have a set word to describe their underworld.

Almost everyplace you see "hell" in the OT, if you
check yer Strong's Concordance, you'll find "sheol",
which they say means "grave."

* It is interesting to note that Hebrew landfills were very
unsanitary and
* unpleasant when compared to modern landfills; these places were
* filled with rotting garbage and the Hebrews would periodically burn
* them down, however by that point they were generally so large that
* they would burn for weeks or even months. In other words they were
* fiery mountains of garbage.

* Hell, as it exists in the Western popular imagination,
has its origins in Christianity.
* Judaism, at least initially, believed in Sheol, a shadowy
* existence to which all were sent indiscriminately. Sheol may have
* been little more than a poetic metaphor for death, not really an
* afterlife at all: see for example Sirach.

"all were sent indiscriminately." As in grave.

"little more than a poetic metaphor for death"

If I toss YOU into a lake of fire,
what happenes? POOF! Yer dead.

What you are doing is getting out of context.
It's quite clear.
The question is, WHO "will be tormented
day and night for ever and ever."

Devils and such. It's very clear. NOT common sinners.
Are you denying this?

> >Want more proof? This one is common sense
> >proof. First, Jews don't believe in Hell,
> >so we can rule out the Old Testament (OT).
> >Second, is the extreme importance of eternal
> >life (heaven) in the New Testament (NT).
> >Over and over again, the NT says if you are
> >good: eternal life, if you are bad: death.
> >(oversimplified)
>
> More than oversimplified. It says you must believe in
> Jesus, not be "good".
>
> >Plain and simple. Over and over and over.
> >Eternal life, V. death.
> >Eternal life, V. its exact opposite.
> >Eternal life, or perish. Over and over.
> >
> >The most well known verse in Christianity,
> >the summery of Christianity itself, agrees.
> >John 3:16. Are you calling that a liar too?
> >
> >John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him
> >should not perish, but have eternal life.
> >
> >So how plain do you want it?
> >
> >3:16 For God so loved the world,
> >that he gave his only begotten Son,
> >that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
> >but have everlasting life.
> >
> >How plain do you want it?
>
> Plain enough to make the point you're trying to make. Nothing
> you've presented so far says being good will qualify for eternal
> life, and nothing you've presented so far encourages me to believe
> that Hell is reserved only for Satan, fallen angels, false prophets,
> and who/what ever else you believe it might be restricted to.


So yer saying John 3:16 is a liar.
How can ya have it both ways?
Fine, you call John 3:16 wrong.
What ever torques yer cookies, guy.

* Hell, as it exists in the Western popular imagination,
* has its origins in Christianity.

So God sent his Son to condemn?

> >3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
> >but that the world through him might be saved.
> >
> > More? There's tons. Here's a few:
> >No Hell: John 5:24+, 5:47-64 8:24, 10:28,
> >11:25, 12:25,44-50,.....
> >
> >...and it's all totally consistant.
> >Over and over and over.
> >Perhaps they just forgot to mention
> >eternal torment?
> >
> >--Doug
>
> Apparently not:
> "They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Who's the "they," Einstein?


--
"Government exists for the interests of the governed,
not for the governors. As Benjamin Franklin wrote,
'In free governments the rulers are the servants,
and the people; their superiors and sovereigns.'"
-- Thomas Jefferson
 >> Stay informed about: The Soul of a Kitten 

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:25:28 GMT, "Blackbear" <bear371 DeleteThis @ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

>
>"Doug Bashford" <playing DeleteThis @work.edu> wrote in message
>news:10q2oc9hj7h3u7d@corp.supernews.com...
>
>> I hate cows. They are lower than worms. They've
>> had all the intelligence and soul God gave them,
>> bred out. Once I chased a herd of cows
>> down a dirt road on my motorcycle. But then I
>> couldn't get past them. So I stopped to burn one,
>> smell the grass, look at God. Half an hour later,
>> I come up on the same herd, still running, nothing
>> chasing them.
>
>I am sorry that you find pleasure in frightening cows.
>I will try to cause you to think differently about them.
>
> Cows are interesting beings. They have been bred
>through the centuries to not be smart, this is not their
>fault it is the result of man breeding them to fit their
>purpose. In some ways, cows have guaranteed their
>existence, as a species, by their alliance with man.
>Perhaps it was a choice the species made?

I doubt it but it's an interesting thesis. Are you a real native
american or just someone who has taken a native american sounding
name?

> Chasing them with a motorcycle is prolly not the best
>thing to do. If you have fear, you have a reasoning mind
>with a great intelligence to combat that fear (if it has no
>real danger for you). A cow can have fear, as you have
>noticed. If a cow is badly frightened, it may injure itself,
>if it is close to having a calf, it may miscarry. They can
>not reason the fear out when a noisy, frightening apparition
>comes after them. Fear causes suffering for all creatures,
>it is an instinct towards survival.

I worked on farms when I was a youth. I've fed cows, cleaned up after
them, milked them, helped them give birth when things went wrong,
groomed them, taught them to go where they were supposed to go, and
I've been kicked by them. And you?
 >> Stay informed about: The Soul of a Kitten