Sleep time and wake time

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 09:05:22 -0400, Sharon Delarose
wrote:

>Sierra did not do as well her second night in the bedroom with us. We
>put her in the pen and she immediately started whining. That was
>expected as that's what she does in the crate but settles down quietly
>very quickly as we don't reward the behavior.
>
>Last night, however, instead of settling down she escalated the whining
>and lost her privilege to sleep in the bedroom with us. I immediately
>took her back downstairs to her crate for the night.

She whined, most likely because she is not used to the pen in the
bedroom, and you punished her by exiling her to the downstairs? Why
don't you just move her crate to the bedroom? What's the purpose of
the pen, anyway?

>This morning, I got up once to take her out for potty and went back to
>bed putting her back in the crate. When I got up for real and went to
>let her out, she was a wild child, jumping up and pushing on the door
>and generally out of control.
>
>Since I knew she was empty and not likely to pee for the delay, I
>refused to open the door until she sat calmly using the "sit" and "wait"
>commands. It took both to get her to calm down.
>
>When I started opening the door and she got back up to jump around, I
>closed the door and put her back into the sit/wait position. I made
>sure she sat quietly while I opened the door, attached the leash, and
>then finally gave a release word for her to break ranks.
>
>So as Dogman and others have so often said, now that she knows certain
>commands the goal is to work her especially under distractions so that
>she ALWAYS obeys those commands, and to nix the wild child type behavior
>in the bud.

You do realize she's a puppy, though, right?
 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time 

In article ,
Dogman wrote:

>
> What is a "sit/wait" position?
>
> Doesn't sit mean sit?

Yes, sit means sit, Dogman. Very good point.

>
> Why would you put her leash on and then "release" her?

I never start her out in the morning off leash. When I let her out of
her crate for the day the first thing we do is go outdoors to potty on a
leash, even if I've gotten up earlier and let her out. I don't let her
off leash outdoors unless it's to allow her some playtime and burn off
dog energy.

She's pretty wound first thing in the morning, understandably, so I put
the leash on in the crate. While she's been doing great with her potty
routine, she is still a puppy and I'd prefer to avoid an accident by
delaying our way out to potty.

The leash/release is to teach her to be calm when I put the leash on in
the crate and not to charge the door of the crate until I give the go
ahead, much like the feeding routine, though the latter is done without
a leash.

"Sit" indoors she's pretty good with except in the crate, and the goal
is for her to be solid with "sit" anytime, anywhere, so I am reinforcing
it under different conditions such as in the crate.

Elsewhere I've been reminded that she is a puppy. Knowing Dakota's size
and age when we adopted her, and the bad habits she had from lack of
training, I want to avoid allowing Sierra to get that big and be
charging doors etc.

Sort of like you repeating over and over to teach a consistent COME, I
am repeating over and over with her to teach a consistent everything :-)

--
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 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time 

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:48:14 -0400, Sharon Delarose
wrote:

>In article ,
> Dogman wrote:
>
>>
>> What is a "sit/wait" position?
>>
>> Doesn't sit mean sit?
>
>Yes, sit means sit, Dogman. Very good point.

But what does it mean to *you,* Sharon?

Now's the time to tell me a story!

>> Why would you put her leash on and then "release" her?
>
>I never start her out in the morning off leash. When I let her out of
>her crate for the day the first thing we do is go outdoors to potty on a
>leash, even if I've gotten up earlier and let her out. I don't let her
>off leash outdoors unless it's to allow her some playtime and burn off
>dog energy.

Is it just impossible for you to answer a direct question? Are you
having trouble understanding me?

Want to try again?

>She's pretty wound first thing in the morning, understandably, so I put
>the leash on in the crate. While she's been doing great with her potty
>routine, she is still a puppy and I'd prefer to avoid an accident by
>delaying our way out to potty.
>
>The leash/release is to teach her to be calm

Sigh.

>when I put the leash on in
>the crate and not to charge the door of the crate until I give the go
>ahead, much like the feeding routine, though the latter is done without
>a leash.

Once again: Why would you put a leash on her and then "release" her?

What does "release" mean to *you*?

>"Sit" indoors she's pretty good with except in the crate, and the goal
>is for her to be solid with "sit" anytime, anywhere, so I am reinforcing
>it under different conditions such as in the crate.

What do you do when she doesn't sit?

>Elsewhere I've been reminded that she is a puppy. Knowing Dakota's size
>and age when we adopted her, and the bad habits she had from lack of
>training, I want to avoid allowing Sierra to get that big and be
>charging doors etc.

Do you want to actually train her, or just talk about training her?

Or maybe just write about it?

>Sort of like you repeating over and over to teach a consistent COME, I
>am repeating over and over with her to teach a consistent everything :-)

Do you understand the difference between human baby brains and human
adult brains?

Do we start human babies off in college?

If not, why not?

Here's another opportunity for a story!

--
Dogman
 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time 

In article ,
sighthounds & siberians wrote:

> She whined, most likely because she is not used to the pen in the
> bedroom, and you punished her by exiling her to the downstairs? Why
> don't you just move her crate to the bedroom? What's the purpose of
> the pen, anyway?

She's not used to being in the bedroom at night period. The crate is
too big to move up and down on a daily basis and we keep it in the
living room. While most of her day is spent out of the crate, there are
times when mama simply needs a few minutes to perform a task that
doesn't involve a dog leash, and the crate being in the living room at
least allows her to be near.

The pen is similar to a crate as it confines her but it also converts
and can be used as a doorway gate later on. It can also be attached to
the crate to create a crate/pen combo.

She has not earned freedom unsupervised such as when we sleep so she
needs to be in something until she has learned certain behaviors. We
absolutely don't trust her not to chew on our bedspread hanging off the
bed or Dakota's blanket or even furniture. She's got a long ways to go
with her chewing training, especially being a puppy. That's where the
pen comes in.

She was in the pen briefly today with her favorite bone while I was
folding clothes right next to her. She was peaceful and quiet and I
gave her positive reinforcement. I left the room a couple times to put
things away and then let her out with me.

I was actually surprised that she did not quiet down last night as she
has been doing very well at night. I thought being closer to us would
be a comfort to her. She did not like the barrier, no big surprise, but
as she has a barrier downstairs as well I did not expect her to whine,
whine louder, and then louder and louder instead of settling down like
she normally does.

I've been running on a LOT less sleep in general since we adopted her
and there's only so much not sleeping I can take so my needs won last
night. I'm working extra this week at work and they need me well rested.

--
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http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com
 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time 

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:12:04 -0400, Sharon Delarose
wrote:

>In article ,
> sighthounds & siberians wrote:
>
>> She whined, most likely because she is not used to the pen in the
>> bedroom, and you punished her by exiling her to the downstairs? Why
>> don't you just move her crate to the bedroom? What's the purpose of
>> the pen, anyway?
>
>She's not used to being in the bedroom at night period.

How do you suppose she'll get used to it by putting her downstairs?

Yes, here's a time for a story!

>The crate is
>too big to move up and down on a daily basis and we keep it in the
>living room.

The crate belongs in your bedroom, right next to your bed, so that
your puppy can see and smell you. And of a size that will help prevent
her from making mistakes.

The pen belongs downstairs, where you can use it to help keep an eye
on her, while you're working, etc.

>I've been running on a LOT less sleep in general since we adopted her
>and there's only so much not sleeping I can take so my needs won last
>night. I'm working extra this week at work and they need me well rested.

Welcome to the Puppy Club!

--
Dogman
 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time 

In article ,
Dogman wrote:

> >Yes, sit means sit, Dogman. Very good point.
>
> But what does it mean to *you,* Sharon?
>
> Now's the time to tell me a story!

Do you mean would there ever be a time that sit did not mean sit/wait
until I say it's okay not to sit?

I do have a story related to something posted a few days ago relating to
too many commands. Sierra is reminding me why some commands came into
being such as "get behind me". No, I'm not trying to teach that to
Sierra yet, it is college level :-)

"Get behind me" is what I use to move Dakota away from the door so that
I can open it when we are coming in from outdoors or when someone comes
to the door. "Sit" would sit her down blocking the door but "get behind
me" moves her behind me so that I can open the door.

> Once again: Why would you put a leash on her and then "release" her?
>
> What does "release" mean to *you*?

Release from a holding position. If waiting in the door at feeding
time, release means okay, you can make the mad dash to your food bowls
now. If I've told her to sit for the morning crate ritual, release
means it's okay not to sit anymore. Aaahhh, I think I see where you're
going with this. Rather than sit then release, sit then come would be
better, yes?

>
> What do you do when she doesn't sit?

Persist until she does. When I was teaching her the sit in the doorway
routine, she wanted to make a mad dash to the food bowl. I blocked her
way (fun when you have an island and the doorway is at the end of the
island) sometimes walking into her to back her into the doorway. She
did not get the release to go eat without first sitting.

If I've got a treat in my hand I always make her sit for it. She
doesn't get the treat until she sits. She has also reminded me of
another command in Dakota's inventory which is "nice". Don't snatch the
treat out of my hand like Jaws in a feeding frenzy, take it gently. For
Dakota now it's automatic without a command but in the early days we
used the word.

If she's in the crate and the goal is to put the leash on while she is
sitting and then let her out, she's not getting out until she sits and
let's me put the leash on. In other words there is usually a reward for
her which is withheld until she complies, such as okay go eat, giving
her a treat, letting her out, etc.

I try NOT to repeat it over and over as in "sit, sit, sit" but I have
been known to repeat it once if she's very distracted, adding a more
stern tone to the command to refocus her attention on me. If she's on
the leash and in high distract mode I use the leash to refocus her
attention on me - i.e. a leash pop or tug, depending on the leash.

>
> Do you want to actually train her, or just talk about training her?
>

Dogman, are you serious? I know I'm far from perfect but I am proud of
the progress we've made to date. She has learned a lot. Would she be
farther along with some of you? No doubt. For me, she is farther along
than I would have expected her to be and I am very pleased.

--
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http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com
 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time 

In article ,
Dogman wrote:

> How do you suppose she'll get used to it by putting her downstairs?
>
> Yes, here's a time for a story!

Okay Dogman, you are making me laugh with the story requests!

>
> The crate belongs in your bedroom, right next to your bed, so that
> your puppy can see and smell you. And of a size that will help prevent
> her from making mistakes.
>
> The pen belongs downstairs, where you can use it to help keep an eye
> on her, while you're working, etc.

Our crate does have a divider to regulate the size for a growing puppy.
If she's not making mistakes in it however, would it really need the
size adjusted?

--
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http://books.gityasome.com
Gityasome Tshirts
http://www.gityasome.com
 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time 

In article ,
"Phyrie" wrote:

> If you keep pushing her like
> this, and not allowing her to be a puppy, she will just become tense, upset
> and even more unruly.

None of my critters has ever been tense and upset, Phyrie. They've all
been very happy and we give them things to look forward to. I know
there are divided schools of thought on when to start training, earlier
versus later, and she does get time to just be.

--
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http://books.gityasome.com
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http://www.gityasome.com
 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time 

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 18:04:39 -0400, Sharon Delarose
wrote:

>In article ,
> Dogman wrote:
>
>> >Yes, sit means sit, Dogman. Very good point.
>>
>> But what does it mean to *you,* Sharon?
>>
>> Now's the time to tell me a story!
>
>Do you mean would there ever be a time that sit did not mean sit/wait
>until I say it's okay not to sit?

Sit means sit. Sit means sit there until "the cows come home," or
until I tell you to do something else.

That's what it means to every obedience trainer in the world.

And until your dog can do that, your sit command needs a lot of work.
No, she doesn't know the sit command, until she will sit there until
"the cows come home" (which hopefully you will never make her do).

>I do have a story related to something posted a few days ago relating to
>too many commands. Sierra is reminding me why some commands came into
>being such as "get behind me". No, I'm not trying to teach that to
>Sierra yet, it is college level :-)

That's the kind of silly commands I'm talking about. And it would be
silly for an adult dog, much less a 4 month old puppy.

Sigh.

>"Get behind me" is what I use to move Dakota away from the door so that
>I can open it when we are coming in from outdoors or when someone comes
>to the door. "Sit" would sit her down blocking the door but "get behind
>me" moves her behind me so that I can open the door.

"Sit" would sit her down wherever you asked her to sit, wouldn't it?
If one of my dogs somehow managed to get himself up on the ceiling,
and I asked him to sit, yes, he'd sit on the ceiling. If I didn't want
him to sit on the ceiling, I'd call him to my side, "heel" him to
where I wanted him to sit, and then have him sit. There.

Why are you making this so difficult, not only for yourself, but for
your poor little puppy?

Moreover, a simple "heel" command should enable you to move him into
whatever position you wanted him in, provided the "heel" command means
the same thing to you that it means to obedience trainers around the
word.

Your friend Carol was never able to grasp what the "heel" command
means, or how it's taught, etc. If you ever expect to have even a
moderately well-trained dog, you better figure it out fast.

Again, you don't need all those silly commands. You just need a
handful of them, and with them you can get your dog to do just about
anything a good companion dog should ever be asked to do. Immediately.

>> Once again: Why would you put a leash on her and then "release" her?
>>
>> What does "release" mean to *you*?
>
>Release from a holding position.

Your release command (as I've said before) should signal to your dog
that she's now off the clock (my command for that is "okay, " but feel
free to pick your own word), and that now she can do pretty much
whatever she wants to do. No more commands for a while. Go play if you
want to. Yada yada yada.

But by putting her on a leash, and then "releasing" her at the same
time, you've created a contradiction in terms.

Can you see what the contradiction is?

>If waiting in the door at feeding
>time, release means okay, you can make the mad dash to your food bowls
>now. If I've told her to sit for the morning crate ritual, release
>means it's okay not to sit anymore. Aaahhh, I think I see where you're
>going with this. Rather than sit then release, sit then come would be
>better, yes?
>
>>
>> What do you do when she doesn't sit?
>
>Persist until she does.

So, you just wait, eh? Tick...tick...tick...tick...tick.

No correction of any kind?

How long is an acceptable time for you to wait until your puppy obeys
your command? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? one hour? How long?

If so, how will your dog ever learn that she must obey immediately?

>If she's in the crate and the goal is to put the leash on while she is
>sitting and then let her out, she's not getting out until she sits and
>let's me put the leash on.

Why don't you just reach in and put the leash on her and let/take her
out? She doesn't really know the sit command yet, she may have to
really pee or poop, and you want to just wait out your young puppy,
even if she has no idea yet what you want her to do, and really,
really has to pee?

>I try NOT to repeat it over and over as in "sit, sit, sit" but I have
>been known to repeat it once if she's very distracted, adding a more
>stern tone to the command to refocus her attention on me. If she's on
>the leash and in high distract mode I use the leash to refocus her
>attention on me - i.e. a leash pop or tug, depending on the leash.

That would be a CORRECTION, Sharon, and it's exactly what you should
be doing when she doesn't obey your command immediately.

But in her crate is not the place to be correcting her, so don't give
her commands when she's in the crate that you know she probably won't
obey. Her crate should be a place where only "good" things happen to
her.

>> Do you want to actually train her, or just talk about training her?
>>
>
>Dogman, are you serious?

Deadly.

>I know I'm far from perfect but I am proud of
>the progress we've made to date. She has learned a lot.

Given what you've described here, I'd wager that she's one confused
little puppy who happens to get something right once in a while.

You don't take criticism well, Sharon. You don't seem to even want to
learn about doing things the right way, either. Neither bodes well
for your future, and for Sierra's future.

--
Dogman
 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time 

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 18:41:40 -0400, Sharon Delarose
wrote:

>In article ,
> "Phyrie" wrote:
>
>> If you keep pushing her like
>> this, and not allowing her to be a puppy, she will just become tense, upset
>> and even more unruly.
>
>None of my critters has ever been tense and upset, Phyrie. They've all
>been very happy and we give them things to look forward to. I know
>there are divided schools of thought on when to start training, earlier
>versus later, and she does get time to just be.

No, the schools are pretty much in agreement: start early. But don't
take that to mean that you should browbeat your puppy with dozens of
silly, useless commands, etc., and to not allow her time to just be a
puppy.

There's a huge difference bewteen training a puppy and training an
adult dog, and everything you've written here about Sierra's training
tells me that you're training her just like you would train an adult
dog. And if you keep doing it that way, there's a good chance that
Sierra will totally shut down on you.

Think garden hose, not fire hose.

--
Dogman
 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time 

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 18:13:09 -0400, Sharon Delarose
wrote:

>In article ,
> Dogman wrote:
>
>> How do you suppose she'll get used to it by putting her downstairs?
>>
>> Yes, here's a time for a story!
>
>Okay Dogman, you are making me laugh with the story requests!

I live to make people laugh.

>> The crate belongs in your bedroom, right next to your bed, so that
>> your puppy can see and smell you. And of a size that will help prevent
>> her from making mistakes.
>>
>> The pen belongs downstairs, where you can use it to help keep an eye
>> on her, while you're working, etc.
>
>Our crate does have a divider to regulate the size for a growing puppy.
>If she's not making mistakes in it however, would it really need the
>size adjusted?

Provided she's never made a mistake there, okay. But it's still up to
you to do your due diligence. And if she does make a mistake, it's
your fault, not hers, and you're essentially back to Square One in
housetraining your puppy.

--
Dogman
 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time 

Sharon Delarose said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> Last night, however, instead of settling down she escalated
> the whining and lost her privilege to sleep in the bedroom
> with us. I immediately took her back downstairs to her
> crate for the night.

She's a puppy in a brand new situation. Like potty-training,
you, a human adult, will have to start putting up with some
inconvenience for the "no pain no gain" result.

I have to believe that you've encountered the theory behind
working with a puppy, but have a difficult time understanding it
and applying it to your situation.

This is not a dig, this is a good book: I encourage you to
purchase the book "Puppies for Dummies" by Sarah Hodgson.

--
--Matt.
 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time 

On 14 Oct 2010 19:11:33 GMT, Matt wrote:


>This is not a dig, this is a good book: I encourage you to
>purchase the book "Puppies for Dummies" by Sarah Hodgson.

Matt, she says she's read the Monks books, so I don't think it's a
lack of knowledge here, but proper execution. Or something else
altogether.

You can lead a horse to water...

Hey, maybe she suffers from Idiopathic Schoen's Disease, or ISD?

For those not familiar with medical terms, ISD is a tragic disease,
causing the victim to totally lose the ability to take sound,
time-proven information and put it to good use. No matter how this
information is obtained, whether it's by reading it, hearing it, or
even observing it on videos or TVs. In fact, in certain rare cases,
the victim appears to actually lose more and more of this ability as
he or she is exposed to more and more information. There is no known
cure for this disease, and the cause of it is still unknown (although
it appears to strike liberals and progressives far more often than
conservatives or libertarians).

--
Dogman
 >> Stay informed about: Sleep time and wake time