RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f..

In article <Xns93C4819A8738Cderryadviegundogscou RemoveThis @130.133.1.4>, Derry
Argue <derry RemoveThis @adviegundogs.co.uk> writes
>Malcolm <brutalAttak RemoveThis @ToughGuy.net> wrote in
>news:3073c044a6ac34918edc881d4a29d329@free.teranews.com:
>
>> Did you know the RSPB produce and sell meat and livestock?
>>
>> Is this what we give our donations for?
>>
>> Did you know RSPB are also partners with many shooting\hunting groups,
>> who provide sport shooting to the hoity toity?
>>
>> On Islay it owns the 2000 hectare Loch Gruinart farm on which it runs
>> a successful 250 cow breeding unit.
>> These animals and their offspring go into the food chain at some
>> point. Hardly protecting birds is it?
>>
>> They have just paid out 6000 guineas of public money on it's breeding
>> stock.
>>
>> http://www.livestock-sales.co.uk/news/02_jun/charolais.html
>>
>> A second 6,000gns price tag secured Gower Schwarzenegger for the RSPB
>> for its Loch Gruinart based unit, on the Isle of Islay. This Welsh
>> bred 14 month old was by the Paris Show champion, Major and out of a
>> homebred cow from Richard and Alison Tucker, Gower, Swansea.
>>
>> One farmer is quoted as saying "It's taking the piss, they want their
>> cake and eat it, at the same time putting us real farmboys out of
>> business. I wish we got public donations for meat production"
>> --
>>
>Having seen some of the RSPB's land management on Orkney (waist deep
>heather of no use to man, beast, or bird)

Seeing who you are, I shall accept that perhap you are just pretending
that you don't know that waist deep heather is exactly the kind of
habitat which Hen Harriers nest in!

--
Malcolm
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f.. 

"Derry Argue" <derry RemoveThis @adviegundogs.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns93C4819A8738Cderryadviegundogscou@130.133.1.4...

> Having seen some of the RSPB's land management on Orkney (waist deep
> heather of no use to man, beast, or bird) perhaps putting a few grazing
> animals onto land to manage the habitat isn't such a bad idea.
>

yes, they have had a lot of problems with stuff getting out of control and
are now having to learn a lot about grazing to try and maintain the
environment

> As they are a charity and answerable to the charity commissioners, I would
> imagine that their farming enterprises have to make a profit.

It's a good trick if they can do it

Jim Webster
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f.. 

Paul <nospam.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bfu793$72t$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Derry Argue <derry.TakeThisOut@adviegundogs.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:Xns93C4819A8738Cderryadviegundogscou@130.133.1.4...
> > Malcolm <brutalAttak.TakeThisOut@ToughGuy.net> wrote in
> > news:3073c044a6ac34918edc881d4a29d329@free.teranews.com:
>
> > > A second 6,000gns price tag secured Gower Schwarzenegger for the RSPB
> > > for its Loch Gruinart based unit, on the Isle of Islay. This Welsh
> > > bred 14 month old was by the Paris Show champion, Major and out of a
> > > homebred cow from Richard and Alison Tucker, Gower, Swansea.
>
I thought this kind of thing was called an investment? Since the RSPB
owns
farms, they have the obligation to farm them. Perhaps the offspring reared
and bred from this prize winning bull will recoup their costs and more?
>
> > > One farmer is quoted as saying "It's taking the piss, they want their
> > > cake and eat it, at the same time putting us real farmboys out of
> > > business. I wish we got public donations for meat production"
>
With a quote like this you'd think farm subsidies come from a big pot that
magically fills itself without any help from people taxes.
>
> > As they are a charity and answerable to the charity commissioners, I
would
> > imagine that their farming enterprises have to make a profit. Shock!
> > Horror!
>
Nobody complains about charities investing in the stock market. Many
charities have invested heavily in stocks/shares and (Guide Dogs is a good
example) were hit very hard by the stock market downturn after September
11th.

Perhaps it taught charities not to keep all their eggs in one basket?

Paul
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f.. 

Malcolm <MAO.RemoveThis@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:+ZshqHRbJnI$EwTq@indaal.demon.co.uk:

>
> In article <Xns93C4819A8738Cderryadviegundogscou.RemoveThis@130.133.1.4>, Derry
> Argue <derry.RemoveThis@adviegundogs.co.uk> writes
>>Malcolm <brutalAttak.RemoveThis@ToughGuy.net> wrote in
>>news:3073c044a6ac34918edc881d4a29d329@free.teranews.com:
>>
>>> Did you know the RSPB produce and sell meat and livestock?
>>>
>>> Is this what we give our donations for?
>>>
>>> Did you know RSPB are also partners with many shooting\hunting groups,
>>> who provide sport shooting to the hoity toity?
>>>
>>> On Islay it owns the 2000 hectare Loch Gruinart farm on which it runs
>>> a successful 250 cow breeding unit.
>>> These animals and their offspring go into the food chain at some
>>> point. Hardly protecting birds is it?
>>>
>>> They have just paid out 6000 guineas of public money on it's breeding
>>> stock.
>>>
>>> http://www.livestock-sales.co.uk/news/02_jun/charolais.html
>>>
>>> A second 6,000gns price tag secured Gower Schwarzenegger for the RSPB
>>> for its Loch Gruinart based unit, on the Isle of Islay. This Welsh
>>> bred 14 month old was by the Paris Show champion, Major and out of a
>>> homebred cow from Richard and Alison Tucker, Gower, Swansea.
>>>
>>> One farmer is quoted as saying "It's taking the piss, they want their
>>> cake and eat it, at the same time putting us real farmboys out of
>>> business. I wish we got public donations for meat production"
>>> --
>>>
>>Having seen some of the RSPB's land management on Orkney (waist deep
>>heather of no use to man, beast, or bird)
>
> Seeing who you are, I shall accept that perhap you are just pretending
> that you don't know that waist deep heather is exactly the kind of
> habitat which Hen Harriers nest in!
>

As nothing else will live in deep heather what, pray, do hen harriers eat?
Surprisingly, hen harriers must eat before they can nest.

I felt so strongly about RSPB neglect that I wrote to the Chairman (can't
remember who that was). He told me more or less what you are telling me,
except it was then merlins that need long heather to nest in. I'm afraid he
collapsed at the first hurdle. No fun sparring with nitwits.

Don't be so silly! Blanket anything is a disaster for wildlife. One fire
and you lose the entire habitat. Where do your birdies nest then?

My problem is I spent a lifetime in the countryside and so I am confused by
my personal experience and observations whereas you guys, educated in
suburbia, know it all by divine inspiration!

Derry

Derry
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f.. 

In message <3073c044a6ac34918edc881d4a29d329.RemoveThis@free.teranews.com>, Malcolm
<brutalAttak.RemoveThis@ToughGuy.net> writes
>Did you know the RSPB produce and sell meat and livestock?

Yes.

>
>Is this what we give our donations for?

NO. Your donations (sorry our donations because you aren't a member)
are used for other things. The farming activities tend to be self
financing and do three things. Firstly provide the conditions needed by
some species. Secondly provide a test bed for methods and practices
which are then often taken up by other farmers. Thirdly they generate
income which is used for conservation.
>
>Did you know RSPB are also partners with many shooting\hunting groups,
>who provide sport shooting to the hoity toity?

Neither you nor Angus have ever been able to offer any proof that these
accusations are true.

>
>On Islay it owns the 2000 hectare Loch Gruinart farm on which it runs
>a successful 250 cow breeding unit.
>These animals and their offspring go into the food chain at some
>point. Hardly protecting birds is it?

Can you explain how it isn't protecting birds?

>
>They have just paid out 6000 guineas of public money on it's breeding
>stock.
>
>http://www.livestock-sales.co.uk/news/02_jun/charolais.html

Can you prove this money is "public" and not from the farming
activities. By the way £6000 guineas is really fairly restrained as far
as a good bull goes.

>
>A second 6,000gns price tag secured Gower Schwarzenegger for the RSPB
>for its Loch Gruinart based unit, on the Isle of Islay. This Welsh
>bred 14 month old was by the Paris Show champion, Major and out of a
>homebred cow from Richard and Alison Tucker, Gower, Swansea.

Interesting family tree apart from giving some credence to the 6000gns
price tag have you included it for any other reason?

>
>One farmer is quoted as saying "It's taking the piss, they want their
>cake and eat it, at the same time putting us real farmboys out of
>business. I wish we got public donations for meat production"

Not the attitude of most farmers I know, can you explain why he had a
chip on his shoulder? RSPB farm activities take place in the ordinary
commercial market place generally using far more inefficient methods
(because of their conservation value) so he really doesn't need to be
scared of the competition unless he is incredibly inefficient.
--
Malcolm Kane
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f.. 

In article <C1VnvAEYOuI$Ewn2@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm Kane
<malcolm.TakeThisOut@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> writes
>In message <3073c044a6ac34918edc881d4a29d329.TakeThisOut@free.teranews.com>,
>Malcolm <brutalAttak.TakeThisOut@ToughGuy.net> writes
<snip>
>>
>>They have just paid out 6000 guineas of public money on it's breeding
>>stock.
>>
>>http://www.livestock-sales.co.uk/news/02_jun/charolais.html
>
>Can you prove this money is "public" and not from the farming
>activities. By the way £6000 guineas is really fairly restrained as far
>as a good bull goes.
<snip>

It's restrained compared to the price of some rams sold just the other
day - top price was over £50k. In yesterday's Press & Journal.


--
Five Cats
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f.. 

"Malcolm Kane" <malcolm.TakeThisOut@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:C1VnvAEYOuI$Ewn2@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk...
> In message <3073c044a6ac34918edc881d4a29d329.TakeThisOut@free.teranews.com>, Malcolm
> <brutalAttak.TakeThisOut@ToughGuy.net> writes
> >Did you know the RSPB produce and sell meat and livestock?

of course, they have done for a lot of years
>

>
> Can you prove this money is "public" and not from the farming
> activities. By the way £6000 guineas is really fairly restrained as far
> as a good bull goes.
>

given that the bull is "half the herd" spending that sort of money on a 250
cow herd is not real big deal.
If the animals genetic potential mean that each calf is worth £20 more than
the offspring of a £1000 bull then in one year that bull brings back in
£5000 which is not to be sniffed at.
Not only that but if the bulls daughters are kept in the herd for breeding
then the genetic merit of the herd improves and the value of the offspring
increases yet again.

One has to regard the herd as a capital asset and improving its genetic
merit is like improvements to a house which will hopefully increase its
capital value

Jim Webster
R
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f.. 

"Malcolm" <MAO.DeleteThis@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:+ZshqHRbJnI$EwTq@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>
> In article <Xns93C4819A8738Cderryadviegundogscou.DeleteThis@130.133.1.4>, Derry
> Argue <derry.DeleteThis@adviegundogs.co.uk> writes
> >Malcolm <brutalAttak.DeleteThis@ToughGuy.net> wrote in
> >news:3073c044a6ac34918edc881d4a29d329@free.teranews.com:
> >
> >> Did you know the RSPB produce and sell meat and livestock?
> >>
> >> Is this what we give our donations for?
> >>
> >> Did you know RSPB are also partners with many shooting\hunting groups,
> >> who provide sport shooting to the hoity toity?
> >>
> >> On Islay it owns the 2000 hectare Loch Gruinart farm on which it runs
> >> a successful 250 cow breeding unit.
> >> These animals and their offspring go into the food chain at some
> >> point. Hardly protecting birds is it?
> >>
> >> They have just paid out 6000 guineas of public money on it's breeding
> >> stock.
> >>
> >> http://www.livestock-sales.co.uk/news/02_jun/charolais.html
> >>
> >> A second 6,000gns price tag secured Gower Schwarzenegger for the RSPB
> >> for its Loch Gruinart based unit, on the Isle of Islay. This Welsh
> >> bred 14 month old was by the Paris Show champion, Major and out of a
> >> homebred cow from Richard and Alison Tucker, Gower, Swansea.
> >>
> >> One farmer is quoted as saying "It's taking the piss, they want their
> >> cake and eat it, at the same time putting us real farmboys out of
> >> business. I wish we got public donations for meat production"
> >> --
> >>
> >Having seen some of the RSPB's land management on Orkney (waist deep
> >heather of no use to man, beast, or bird)
>
> Seeing who you are, I shall accept that perhap you are just pretending
> that you don't know that waist deep heather is exactly the kind of
> habitat which Hen Harriers nest in!
>

Does that mean you disagree with his view that putting a few livestock in to
assist in management is no bad thing? As long as they are not deer, wooly
maggots or goats, presumably :-)
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f.. 

In article <bg0l6j$re5$6@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, Jim Webster
<Jim RemoveThis @feeswerve.spam.co.uk> writes
>
>"Malcolm Kane" <malcolm RemoveThis @jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:C1VnvAEYOuI$Ewn2@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk...
>> In message <3073c044a6ac34918edc881d4a29d329 RemoveThis @free.teranews.com>, Malcolm
>> <brutalAttak RemoveThis @ToughGuy.net> writes
>> >Did you know the RSPB produce and sell meat and livestock?
>
>of course, they have done for a lot of years
>>
>
>>
>> Can you prove this money is "public" and not from the farming
>> activities. By the way £6000 guineas is really fairly restrained as far
>> as a good bull goes.
>>
>
>given that the bull is "half the herd" spending that sort of money on a 250
>cow herd is not real big deal.
>If the animals genetic potential mean that each calf is worth £20 more than
>the offspring of a £1000 bull then in one year that bull brings back in
>£5000 which is not to be sniffed at.
>Not only that but if the bulls daughters are kept in the herd for breeding
>then the genetic merit of the herd improves and the value of the offspring
>increases yet again.
>
>One has to regard the herd as a capital asset and improving its genetic
>merit is like improvements to a house which will hopefully increase its
>capital value

Luckily there is no cattle breed equivalent of all those home
improvement TV programs urging people to paint rooms lurid colours. ;-)


--
Five Cats
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f.. 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f.. 

"Five Cats" <cats_five RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZcYqN2B68CJ$Ewu0@nevis-
>
> Luckily there is no cattle breed equivalent of all those home
> improvement TV programs urging people to paint rooms lurid colours. ;-)

LOL, I loved that one

Coffee on Keyboard moment!

Jim Webster
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f.. 

"Malcolm" <MAO.RemoveThis@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g$DGT4ZjYDJ$Ew7n@indaal.demon.co.uk...

> A wise use of money by the RSPB. They must have cattle to graze their
> reserve and keep it in the condition that offers the best habitats for
> the birds, so why not manage a profitable herd instead of having it as a
> drain on their resources, which would require more donations from the
> public, which is what seemed to be being objected to in the first place.
> But then rational thought hardly comes into it when the RSPB is being
> criticised for the sake of it whether by Pete or by Angus.
>

The RSPB is getting its act together over grazing, and without being at all
patronising, as they have their own people with genuine experience, their
policy does seem to get slowly more realistic.
I will be interested to see if they start having internal 'frank and open
discussions' between their more hands on grassland management people who
have cattle and the hard practicalities of grazing to deal with and the
perhaps more theoretical types.
Certainly I have always welcomed their move into agriculture and the urge to
be profitable.

Jim Webster
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f.. 

Malcolm <MAO.TakeThisOut@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>In article <D5cfmwMRN5K$EwnD@btopenworld.com>, Oz
><acoohdb.TakeThisOut@btopenworld.com> writes
>>Malcolm <MAO.TakeThisOut@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>In article <H7Q+mjKgtqK$EwX2@btopenworld.com>, Oz
>>><acoohdb.TakeThisOut@btopenworld.com> writes
>>
>>>>>>However if his description is correct, you have agreed that management
>>>>>>is poor there, since the heather is not being properly managed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>No, I don't happen to agree that Derry's description indicates anything
>>>>>of the sort. There are circumstances where tracts of deep heather are
>>>>>exactly what is wanted.
>>
>>What circumstances.
>>Would that be so of 10,000-15000 acre block, and why?
>>
>There is no 10,000-15,000 acre block of deep heather anywhere in the
>country, let alone on an RSPB reserve.

Stop being evasive. I asked if it would be appropriate if there were.

>>>>So what happens when they get burned out or decease?
>>>>Suddenly nowhere for the birds of deep heather?
>>>>Bad plan....
>>>>
>>>Only *if* they get burned out. No examples of this happening in Orkney
>>>have been given, either by you, or more pertinently, by Derry, merely a
>>>raising of the possibility, which Derry coupled with some singularly
>>>inaccurate comments about the value of deep heather to birds.
>>
>>Please answer the question. What happens when the heather gets burned
>>out or dies? Is that good for the birds? Why isn't a mozaic better?
>>
>I've already answered this, though you may have missed it. If an area of
>heather being used by harriers for nesting gets burnt out, it is not
>uncommon for the males to continue to choose nest sites in the same
>area, finding what little cover they can, or occasionally none.

OK, so deep heather isn't even essential for hen harriers.
Even less reason to manage any reserve as a mosaic.

You are loosing this one big time despite being evasive.

>I've
>seen a female harrier incubating in a recently burnt area that was
>clearly visible from 100 yards away. If they don't like doing that, they
>move and find somewhere they think is more suitable which, for your
>information, does not have to be heather.

OK, so neither heather nor deep heather is essential.
You just shot your argument for deep heather in the foot bigtime.
Ho-hum.

>>>Tell me, why should the tracts of deep heather "go, as they surely
>>>will"? And then tell me why they should not be succeeded by other tracts
>>>of deep heather?
>>
>>1) Please answer the question.
>>2) Where are these 'areas of deep heather' if the rspb site is now non-
>>existent.
>
>Where have I said that any RSPB site is "non-existent"? The question is
>a nonsense.

You are really struggling to keep a grip on this, aren't you?
Tends to happen when you know you have blown it.

Anyhow you answered it earlier: hen harriers don't need overmature
heather. That then begs the question why they want it, of course.

>>3) Note that a better plan would be to have a mozaic, then there will
>>ALWAYS be areas at all growth stages at all times. This clearly seems
>>preferable to me, so what is your objection to this?
>>
>As a management regime it is suitable for birds which need to feed on
>young heather shoots, e.g. red grouse. Creating such a mosaic is
>unnecessary when seeking to provide the best conditions for nesting
>harriers and, e.g., merlins.

You have clearly shown that this is wrong.
1) Predators need prey, which intermediate stages provide aplenty.
2) The birds clearly only require rather small areas of their preferred
deep heather (see above) or even none at all.
3) In that case providing more prey will produce a higher population of
predators.

So, if you are an expert called upon by the rspb, I am inclined to agree
with argue. That is neither you nor they can put a logical argument
together.

>If it is unnecessary, the only reason to do
>it is to reduce the risk of extensive fires. Whether or not there is
>such a risk is something that should be determined on the spot by the
>land managers who are likely to be able to make a better assessment than
>someone who doesn't know the ground.

more evasion

>>>>They could be wrong in YOUR opinion.
>>>>Would you passionately object?
>>>>
>>>Hypothetical and not worth responding to.
>>
>>Not at all hypothetical. IF you knew a management strategy was wrong,
>>would you passionately object? Simple question requiring a simple
>>answer.
>>
>Hypothetical and not worth responding to.

More evasion.

You have dismally failed a typical test I apply to advisors.
That is, using the basic knowledge of the subject I have, I see if you
can put together a case and provide ample knowledge that hangs together
that I didn't know.

You have failed to the extent I would consider you a conman, and rudely
show you the door. When you had gone we would be convulsed with
laughter.

>>>>>There is no single correct way to manage
>>>>>heather, because heather management is carried out for different
>>>>>purposes.
>>>>
>>>>I doubt that in principle.
>>>
>>>Hmm, it is only yesterday that you said "I know little about heather".
>>>What suddenly gives you the knowledge to "doubt that in principle"?
>>
>>Because you have not explained it, strongly suggesting you don't know.
>>
>I know, from personal experience on the ground, that there is more than
>one way to manage heather. I'm sure that, if Derry could rid himself of
>his prejudice against the RSPB, he knows this too.

Then lets hear a few, and the pros and cons of each,
mr self-proclaimed 'expert'.

>>>>Heather grows, you need to either let it decay as over-mature or manage
>>>>it. The management options are limited as far as I can see. Essentially
>>>>to deciding on the period and extent of burning.
>>>>
>>>Hmm, it is only yesterday that you said "I know little about heather".
>>>What suddenly gives you this knowledge about the life cycle of heather
>>>and its related management?
>>
>>See above.
>>I note another question you avoid answering.
>>You are clearly losing it.
>>
>There's no question to answer. Heather grows, heather dies, or "decays
>as over-mature" if you prefer a more elaborate description. Heather also
>regenerates where it has died.

A stunningly profound statement (irony).

>>>>>I have taken part in discussions on reserve management plans
>>>>>though whether I ever argued "passionately" for something, I can't
>>>>>recall!
>>>>
>>>>Hmmm.
>>>>Probably more than your jobsworth.
>>>>
>>>Pardon? I'm self-employed, something Derry didn't seem to realise,
>>>leading him to make remarkably silly assumptions about me. When
>>>discussing reserve management plans, I was self-employed and merely
>>>being asked for my (unpaid) expert views.
>>
>>If you are an 'expert' how come you studiously avoid actually discussing
>>pros and cons. If even I can do it, you should be able to do it better,
>>but you are simply evasive. I wonder why?
>>
>I've mentioned both pros and cons.

No, you haven't.
Just give us say three different management systems and the pros and
cons of each.

>It appears that you are just
>continuing to argue (either on your own behalf or on behalf of Argue!)
>for the sake of it. Something I've noticed you do quite regularly in
>uba!

No, I'm arguing because I detect a fraud.

>>OK. so you said feeding areas within a few km.
>>5000 ha (12000ac) is about 50 sq km.
>>That is a square of size 7km.
>>If all this is mature heather, and they need prey best suited to
>>immature heather, then I would suggest this is an excessively large area
>>of over mature heather, wouldn't you?
>>
>If I knew of any area of over-mature heather extending to 50 sq km I
>might agree that it would be an excessively large area, but I don't and
>nor do you and nor does Derry and nor does his keeper friend.

Is it, or is it not, an excessively large area of immature heather?
A simple question that should not need more evasion.

>>Further, I doubt very much whether they need (at the very most) more
>>than half this area as overmature (probably under 10%), so better
>>management would bring in some 25+ sq miles of feeding ground within the
>>reserve. This would be better, surely, and if not why not?
>>
>This scenario is based upon a situation which doesn't exist.

So what?
Stop being evasive.
Answer the question mr smart expert person.
It's pretty simple, isn't it?

>>>>>You, or rather Derry for whom you appear to
>>>>>have become some kind of surrogate (!), might consider that the aims
>>>>>and/or the management are not the best, but so what? You are neither of
>>>>>you experts in heather management for hen harriers.
>>>>
>>>>Ah, and you are.
>>>>Good, please describe the plan and the aims.
>>>>
>>>What plan and what aims? Each reserve has different ones of each. See
>>>above.

More evasion mr fraud.

>>I note you are once again being evasive.
>>You claim to be asked your views on management by RSPB, how can you do
>>that without knowing the aims? In any case they are surely public
>>knowledge.
>>
>Indeed they are. Reserve management plans are frequently discussed with
>local people to bring in their expertise.

So how about describing a few different ones by way of illustration?

>>Surely such an expert as yourself would know the aims and rationale
>>anyway, which you can now give us. No evasion, please.
>>
>>You aren't worthy as a chris replacement.
>>
>As I have never set myself up to be a Chris replacement and wouldn't
>dream of doing so,

You aint remotely good enough for a start.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.
 >> Stay informed about: RSPB spend 6,000guineas in public donations, to buy bull f..