PING:HJM

"diddy" <diddy.DeleteThis@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9604AE4AE731Edanny@216.196.97.142...
> Belinda,
> Can you take some time and SHOW her?

I would have no problem showing her at all. As a matter of fact, I told her
at one point that if Madigan were my dog and nothing else were working I
would use investigate the use of a training collar. Her leash skills are not
bad though, its the jumping that drives me crazy.

> I would think it would be VERY embarrassing to have a trainer as my
> employee who uses demo dogs who can't heel.
> I know if I entered a class and my pup was better mannered than the
> instructors dog, It would be the last class I attended.
> I would think it would benefit you to see she's the best she can be.

I agree. I have a rule about demo dogs though. They must have CGC
certification in order to be on the training grounds as a demo dog. Leah's
dogs do not have CGC certification and I will not test them since they know
me. She will have to go elsewhere for testing. On the other hand, I have
seen Madigan doing a demo for HEEL position and attention and she was
performing beautifully with some serious BC eye contact. IMO, Leah's problem
with Madigan and LLW is contextual, it does not seem to have generalized to
certain distracting situations.Madigan is Leah's dog though. Leah is more
tolerant of certain things that I have zero tolerance for.

BD
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"BigB" <delaby DeleteThis @cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:N0sSd.77512$pc5.16687@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> In defense of Leah and her LLW...
>
> I believe Leah's experiences with using training collars for
heel/LLW are
> drawn from limited experience with some very poor trainers in our
area.
> (Correct me if I am wrong Leah) There is only one trainer in our
area that I
> have observed using training collars correctly. His timing is
impeccable and
> I doubt the dogs experience any discomfort with the quick "pop &
release" he
> uses. IMO, it is about the timing and I view collar pops as an
advanced
> skill. I do not use training collars in my group classes any more
because
> JQP has very poor timing and as I said before, I feel it is an
advanced
> skill. On the other hand, if Leah were to observe the correct use of
the
> training collar I think she could possibly have a different opinion.
>
> BD
I've not read the thread you're referring too. you 're talking about
choke chains here?
Alison
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"Leah Roberts" <DfrntDrums.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9isk111feggoog8ttn9m4kf9i67445embc@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:03:41 GMT, "BigB" <delaby.TakeThisOut@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
> (I had her on a buckle collar.) So yes,
> you're right that I've not ever seen a "good" trainer using choke
> collar corrections. >>.

I don't think a "good" trainer would use a choke chain.

>> I admit that it would probably take less time to
> train a dog to llw/heel on a choke collar than using positive
> reinforcement. I'll take the trade-off.>>>

I'm sure a lot of trainers wouldn't agree with you.

> And yes, Madigan is no longer in the learning stage. But knowing
her,
> I would bet money that even if I began correcting her with a choke
> collar, she would still need corrections on the way from the car to
> the agility field, or in a similar environment. >>>

I sincerely hope that you never use a choke on her.
Alison
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"Alison" <alison RemoveThis @XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cve0o1$jut$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> I don't think a "good" trainer would use a choke chain.

I think a "good trainer" is someone who knows how to:

1. use every tool available *and*
2. assess each dog as an individual and use the training tool most effective
for the individual dog

IMO everything today has gone cookie-cutter. That used to be, and still is
to some respect, something attributed to choke collar trainers. There are
still classes that hand them out as standard issue and demand you use them
regardless of your dog's personality type, responsiveness or other important
factors.

There are also a growing number of feel-good trainers who refuse to use
anything physical on a dog but for some reason find Gentle Leaders (my hunch
is that because they're called "gentle" they must be ok) acceptable. Don't
scold, don't use any kind of collar that may cause undue discomfort *as a
means of a split-second training correction*, don't forget to overload them
with yummies (which can make them fat & expectant of such things in order to
obey) and a host of other problems.

All dogs aren't responsive to such techniques. Alot of strong-willed dogs,
and entire breeds (possibly), will walk all over an owner who tries to train
them in that manner. Its also not necessarily a "good" or "best" way to
train certain dogs if you spend forever on the training with little to no
results.

Of all the training tools available, the ones that scare me most, in the
hands of JQP, are the GL and the e-collar. For all their "gentleness" the
GL can be dangerous on lunging dogs. For all their effectiveness the
e-collar can be dangerous in the wrong hands and/or on a dog who is very
soft or easily spooked.

My novel-length point is that any kind of teacher can only be good when
he/she is fully educated and makes decisions based on individual learning
abilities not what looks/sounds/is perceived as bad.

--
Tara
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 03:19:35 GMT, Handsome Jack Morrison
<me10004 DeleteThis @privacy.net.invalid> wrote:

>Seriously...*every* kind of dog training requires some level of
>knowledge, education, skill, and use of the "right" tool for the job,
>not just e-collar training.

You haven't been to Petsmart lately, have you?

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
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"Alison" <alison DeleteThis @XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cve0o1$jut$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...

> I sincerely hope that you never use a choke on her.

Why the hell not?

Using a choke or prong collar correctly means that the dog will occasionally
feel a momentary discomfort.

flick 100785

> Alison
>
>
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"Leah Roberts" <DfrntDrums DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
news:87al11d8sm1mis5ela64hpkl0psrocg2pb@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 01:08:50 -0000, "Alison"
> <alison DeleteThis @XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I sincerely hope that you never use a choke on her.
>
> I don't intend to, Alison. We were talking theoretically.
>
> --
> Leah Roberts, Family Dog Trainer

:)
Hi Leah , You're welcome to join the behaviourist/trainer Gill White
nee Minter's forum . She really does know her stuff, as does fellow
member Wendy Hanson . It's a small but perfectly formed forum and it's
nice to chat with out the usual tedious suspects. I'll send you the
linky thingy.
Alison
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"flick" <flick.TakeThisOut@starband.net> wrote in message
news:c9aee$421b34a4$94402b1b$5037@news.starband.net...
> >
> Using a choke or prong collar correctly means that the dog will
occasionally
> feel a momentary discomfort.
>
> flick 100785
>

What's a prong collar got to do with it ?
Ok so what is the correct way to use a choke to get a dog to heel or
LLW?
Alison
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:01:28 -0000, "Alison"
<alison DeleteThis @XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>
>>
>
> What's a prong collar got to do with it ?
>Ok so what is the correct way to use a choke to get a dog to heel or
>LLW?

For many dogs, a well fitted nylon slip collar (which doesn't CHOKE
BTW), can mean a small flick of the wrist. More of an attention
getter than a correction, when the dog has already learned to tune out
the owner with great success. I find a small link prong more
effective and simpler for many though.

I don't have a problem giving a big collar correction when warranted -
and often a dog gives themselves that big correction.

I'm always amazed that people are so damn worried about causing
momentary discomfort to Fifi, but Fifi doesn't mind pulling their arm
out of the socket and that's ok.

Many tool - only as good as the human on the other end of them. Leah
really needs to learn to actually use these tools, whether she intends
to implement them or not. Calling herself a trainer without learning
about such things is really a sham.


--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
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"Janet B" <janet.DeleteThis@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
news:3afm11lf0fhfadfnm6np63j94c4np0k0f4@4ax.com...
>> I'm always amazed that people are so damn worried about causing
> momentary discomfort to Fifi, but Fifi doesn't mind pulling their
arm
> out of the socket and that's ok.>>>

Hi Janet,
I'm hoping someone who isn't in my killfile will run me through the
steps of using the choke chain to get a dog to heel.
I've seen countless dogs pulling their owners along like a steam
train wearing a choke .
Being half strangled doesn't stop them pulling so how does a quick
pop stop them from pulling and how do you get the lead loose enough to
give a pop in the first place?


> Many tool - only as good as the human on the other end of them.
Leah
> really needs to learn to actually use these tools, whether she
intends
> to implement them or not. Calling herself a trainer without
learning
> about such things is really a sham.>>>>

That's also true if you want to discuss these things. I said I hoped
she wouldn't use one , I didn't say she shouldn't learn about them.
Another question , in what circumstances would you chose a choke over
other tools?
Alison
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:33:00 -0000, "Alison"
<alison RemoveThis @XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>Hi Janet,
> I'm hoping someone who isn't in my killfile will run me through the
>steps of using the choke chain to get a dog to heel.
> I've seen countless dogs pulling their owners along like a steam
>train wearing a choke .
> Being half strangled doesn't stop them pulling so how does a quick
>pop stop them from pulling and how do you get the lead loose enough to
>give a pop in the first place?


First - there's a "right way" and a "wrong way" direction-wise, to fit
the collar. If the dogs in conventionally on your left, the ring
attached to the leash comes OVER the dogs neck. People remember this
in a variety of ways, the most common current one being "make it look
like a 'p' while facing the dog, and slip it over the head". If on
the wrong way (upside down), the collar doesn't release - it stays
tight, therefore choking rather than correcting and releasing (i.e. -
dog doesn't get any reward for ceasing pulling). In a
pop-and-release, the dog feel momentary discomfort and when he walks
nicely, the discomfort ceases.

How does it get loose enough to give that pop and release to beging
with? TRAINING. Longe line work (a Koehler thing which out
responsibility on the dog, so the owner isn't nagging) is the first
step. If a dog is at the end of a tight leash, a "giant step" by the
owner give enough momentary slack in order to give a correction.

A tight collar does nothing - many dogs don't mind gagging and
coughing - amazing but true. I wish I had a dime for every person I
see being dragged behind a choking dog. But I wish they'd get
TRAINING even more.

BTW - I prefer nylon slip collars, because fit is essential, and chain
collars are too hard to get a good fit with for some dogs.

> That's also true if you want to discuss these things. I said I hoped
>she wouldn't use one , I didn't say she shouldn't learn about them.

One of the best ways to learn a tool is use it on your own pets.

> Another question , in what circumstances would you chose a choke over
>other tools?
> Alison

In use it as a back-up to a prong. I use it as a safety collar for
walking (dog can't back out of it in a panic, and one never knows what
they may encounter in life). It's a simple collar that is easily
accepted by most dogs and people. It's easy to put on (unlike any of
the harness contraptions), and effective when used properly. It is
also THE collar to use in longe line work IMO.

I recommend NEVER attaching a leash to an ID collar. Always use an
additional collar for walking. Shit happens. I want the ID collar
staying on the dog no matter what, and a second collar does more to
ensure that.


--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
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"Leah Roberts" <DfrntDrums DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
news:u2gm119v50f1k7k1rhlu3n2hk5requhdak@4ax.com...
>>
> If I subscribe to one more forum, I'll have to quit my job to keep
up
> with it all. :}>>

I know what you mean:)

> However, I was going to ask you for your e-mail address (not sure
how
> to unmung it) to send you the info of how to join my lists. <g> I
> think you'd really enjoy them. I've been chatting with people like
> Melissa Alexander, Suzanne Clothier, Turid Rugaas, and September
Morn.
> A lot of great information, and it's all about positive
reinforcement.>>>

Would love to join these lists as long as they are not e.mail
ones. Take out XYZ to reply.

Alison
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