Offended a Breeder

"Emily Carroll" <carrol82 DeleteThis @pilot.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:bhmva4$2e3a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
>
> > 5. Light yellow to white
>
> You would turn me (and many of my friends) off with this request. In
fact,
> my mentor recently turned down a couple for such consideration. (Granted
> she called her darker boy "ugly," which ticked both of us off.) There is
NO
> guarantee as to the shade of a puppy. Puppies change shades quite a bit
as
> they grow, and a dark puppy might turn out light and a light puppy might
> turn out dark. There are many more important things than the SHADE of the
> dog, especially in Labs.

I agree that the shades can and often do deepen with age but I would rather
wait on a light yellow to white puppy than to take one who is born yellow or
gold. Since I've purposely selected kennel lines that I like in terms of
ethics, health, temperament & titles *and* who purposely breed yellows, all
that is left for me is the shade and the personality of the pup at 8 weeks.
If the light yellow or white doesn't come up that's no big deal as I can
wait on another planned litter. Its also why I've made extensive contact
with more than one particular breeder. I definitely have a favorite and
luckily for me, she's local. She breeds yellows and blacks that carry
yellow. The last litter that hit the ground was one I'd had high hopes of
obtaining a pup from and would not have had a problem as I was approved to
purchase (and she had several very light colored pups as well as several
yellow/gold ones) but then my central AC broke and there went the $800 I'd
saved for our puppy.


> It would concern me that one of your first issues was with the return
clause
> in the contract. Granted, again, I'm coming at this from a different
angle
> than you are, as I've known my breeder for better than a year, trained the
> dam of my puppy to her CD, have another dog of hers ready for his CD, and
> have been part of the "in" crowd for several years now. I haven't even
seen
> the contract I'm expected to sign. Have no clue about the ins & outs of
it.
> But I know her well enough to know that there will be VERY few things that
> we will butt heads on, if any. The most likely one will be when/if to
send
> him off with a handler, and I can't see even that being an issue.

I don't really consider it a "first issue" so much as part of the
interviewing process. I asked many questions to get a good idea of the type
of breeder she is. I have heard of her dogs, seen them in pedigrees of
other kennel lines, and liked the looks of them but since I'd never met her
or any of her dogs in person, I had no choice but to write her to ask for
the missing information. I can see if I'd just written and asked "do you
take your dogs back if something goes wrong?" but I asked many pertinent
questions, gave a bio of our home, vet reference and explained how much
research I'd done. IMO taking offense at the question was a red flag. Now
the reason I ask about the return clause is simple...I wouldn't be doing
Boxer rescue almost 40 hours a week if breeders took back their dogs. I
want to know that a breeder that I purchase from takes lifetime
responsibility for the dogs she breeds and that they don't go to shelters or
Lab Rescue rather than go back to her. To me, this is very important and
speaks volumes about the breeder.


> I would be concerned, first and foremost, with finding a line that has
what
> you want. Talk to breeders, lots of them, and get to be part of the trust
> crowd first.

There are two particular lines that I love (Surry & Dickendall) and several
others who have Surry or Dickendall stock so they are all very similar.
I've talked with all of them except Dickendall but then the lines with
Dickendall in them are all sired by Gabe, Clark or Daveron so I deal with
the breeder of the bitch. There are a few breeders whose lines I won't go
near even though their dogs are beautiful and titled. I've learned of
temperament issues and our last Lab happened to have had two of those lines
in her.


> I don't know if you've talked to Karimar yet, if not, drop her a line.
She
> should be having yellows from Reba...if I recall right, the stud carries
> yellow. She ships. I can personally vouch for her level of ethics. (Be
> warned, she's a VERY straightforeward person). Also, there's Woodhaven
> (www.woodhavenlabs.com) who breeds multi-purpose Labs, she should be
having
> yellow this fall as well. If light yellow was a major consideration, the
> puppy she kept from Reba's previous litter is quite light.

Thanks Emily. I'll check out Karimar & Woodhaven.


--
Tara
 >> Stay informed about: Offended a Breeder 

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 >> Stay informed about: Offended a Breeder 

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:37:45 -0400 Tara O. <boxertara.DeleteThis@netscape.net> whittled these words:

> I emailed a well-known breeder of Champion dogs, years of experience, to
> inquire about an upcoming litter. I wanted to know the health history in
> terms of genetic defects, how many of the pups usually end up going to
> pet-homes, the health guarantee and the return policy. I was very detailed
> in the reason I was asking the questions, making it well-known that I'd done
> my research and this was not a "how much are your puppies and when can I
> have one" email.

> I received a response that was fairly curt in tone and was scolded for
> having asked about the return contract. I was told that the very fact that
> I would ask about a return contract shows that I'm not committed enough to a
> well-bred puppy to qualify for one from her breeding and that I gave the
> distinct impression that I would return the dog over the slightest thing. I
> emailed her back and said that I was interviewing her, which is my right as
> an informed buyer, and that I wanted to know about all the provisions in
> place as well as the history before deciding that she was someone I'd enjoy
> having a breeder/buyer relationship with. I explained that I'm in rescue
> for a different breed and that being asked such questions in advance is
> always a sign, to me, that the prospective adopter has given this alot of
> thought. I told her that I was sorry if she was offended but that in
> return, I felt offended for asking perfectly legitimate questions. I never
> got a response to that.

> I honestly put nothing in that email that would intimate that I had
> intentions of returning a pup and that I was half-hearted about getting and
> raising a Lab. I didn't even know how much her pups were and didn't ask.
> Does anyone else here think that her response was understandable? I should
> also mention that I got no answers to my other questions except "all of our
> dogs are proven healthy".

It sounds like she is more used to dealing with people who are all
impressed by her show wins. YOu burst her bubble by asking perfectly
legitimate questions about what she DOES. A Cavelier owner and I were
commenting just today how disgusting it is that some of the "top" show
breeders in that breed don't health test. Same thing inlbas. Just
because they are experienced and show doesn't mean they will do the
responsible breeder thing.

Diane Blackman
 >> Stay informed about: Offended a Breeder 

<TOTE DeleteThis @dog-play.com> wrote in message
news:bhn0tr$14iml$1@ID-80796.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> It sounds like she is more used to dealing with people who are all
> impressed by her show wins. YOu burst her bubble by asking perfectly
> legitimate questions about what she DOES. A Cavelier owner and I were
> commenting just today how disgusting it is that some of the "top" show
> breeders in that breed don't health test. Same thing inlbas. Just
> because they are experienced and show doesn't mean they will do the
> responsible breeder thing.

I agree with you and I did make sure that she health tests prior to even
emailing her. I have only considered contacting a breeder if the website
shows their dogs, titles, OFA, CERF and elbows. Then if the type is right
(for me) then I'll email to ask for more information to open the
interviewing process. I've learned alot since my own breeder days and more
than I ever really wanted to know due to rescue. While I understand the
points both Emily & Janice made, my reasoning for asking about a return
contract is to ensure that I won't be entering into a relationship with a
breeder who doesn't keep up with her dogs and allows them to go to shelters
or rescue. I did tell her I'm in rescue and gave her the link to our
website in case she wanted to learn more about the kind of organization I'm
affiliated with. It just seems to me that it would have been more
appropriate for her to email me back with questions of her own before
jumping to conclusions.

--
Tara
 >> Stay informed about: Offended a Breeder 

"Tara O." wrote:
>
> I forgot to post this a while back. I just remembered it because I was
> sending an inquiry to a Lab breeder I haven't previously corresponded with.
> We've been researching kennels/lines for our next Lab for quite a while now.
> We've been approved by several breeders but for one reason or another, the
> litters that have hit the ground were not ones we ended up purchasing from.
> Our specifications:
>
> 1. Excellent, line proven, companion pet temperaments
> 2. OFA Excellent (will accept Good) on hips, elbows done & CERF
> 3. No history of PRA or severe allergies
> 4. Male
> 5. Light yellow to white
>
[snip]

It's hard to say exactly what the problem might be, but...speaking as
someone who breeds occasionally and invests a lot into the selection
of meritorious breeding stock, sometimes it rubs me the wrong way to
be grilled by a prospective buyer who is trying to see if I "measure
up" to certain standards. Of course it is the buyer's right to find
out all he or she wants to know, but some stick to finding out if my
priorities are their priorities, while others seem to have a "list"
which implies I'm a huckster if I don't meet their criteria. And
frankly, sometimes those criteria are things I consider pretty
irrelevant. A difference in outlook and priorities is certainly
something that occurs, but to feel that I am being held up and judged
wanting for some issue I consider unimportant kind of rankles.

One of my "hot button" issues is guarantees. I prefer to place puppies
with people who will evaluate all I have done to try to breed a good
and healthy dog, and, if they find it acceptable, take responsibility
for the inherent uncertainty of breeding. I don't want to sell to
someone who thinks that since they have paid their money it is my
responsibility to deliver a perfect "product." It doesn't work that
way. Puppies aren't fabricated goods, and moreover, a replacement
under a guarantee is not a satisfactory solution to most families.
What they want is for the puppy they buy to work out. It is a fallacy
to equate "guarantee" with a promise of perfection.

I do guarantee against certain things, mostly as a tool to keep
informed of possibly-genetic flaws that bear on future breeding
decisions.

I will take a dog of mine back at any time. This is "no questions
asked" in an effort to make people feel safe calling me to return
their dog. But it is an unhappy situation. It would mean that the
placement is a failure, and when I interview prospective owners,
I want every placement to be a success. If someone gave me the
impression they were too interested in that clause--not committed
to the dog--I would cross them off my list.

On the subject of price, there are a lot of people for whom it is
an important criterion but for some reason they think it's rude
to ask up front. If you have a price range, let's talk about that
first! I hate it when I spend forty-five minutes on the phone
telling about my dogs and asking about the prospective owner, only
to find out that my puppies are out of their price range.

Another issue, which may or may not be important to the breeder
who snubbed you, is that a good relationship between breeder and
buyer is good for the puppy and good for the breeding program, in
that the breeder gets feedback about the dog. Placement is not
only about your meeting their criteria and their meeting your
criteria--it's also about comfort and communication.

Of course, it could be that this breeder's experience and
confidence in her track record of producing good dogs is such that
she doesn't want to jump through hoops to prove herself to
everyone that comes along. I guess what this whole email amounts
to is that breeding good puppies isn't necessarily a "consumer-
oriented" activity. In my work I try to meet people's expectations
and do a good job; when I breed dogs it is to my own standards.
Maybe this is the main source of discordance with prospective
buyers--when they seem to implicitly assume that my sole purpose
is to satisfy the consumer.

Sorry to ramble. I suggest you just "let it go" as a mismatch.

Amy Dahl
 >> Stay informed about: Offended a Breeder 

"Amy Dahl" <amy DeleteThis @oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:3F3F172C.5C0260A1@oakhillkennel.com...
>
> It's hard to say exactly what the problem might be, but...speaking as
> someone who breeds occasionally and invests a lot into the selection
> of meritorious breeding stock, sometimes it rubs me the wrong way to
> be grilled by a prospective buyer who is trying to see if I "measure
> up" to certain standards.

I can see that but on the flip side, don't you, as a breeder, grill
prospective buyers to make sure they measure up to your standards? I
wouldn't call my questions to breeders grilling though. I'm always very
upfront, give a full bio of myself, why I want a Lab, what I know about
Labs, what my plans are for the dog and then ask about the health,
temperament and policies so the breeder can see where I'm coming from, a bit
about who I am and so on. I know I'm always polite since this particular
breeder is the only one to have been put out with my questions. The others
have always been happy to open the lines of communication and talk about
their dogs.


> One of my "hot button" issues is guarantees. I prefer to place puppies
> with people who will evaluate all I have done to try to breed a good
> and healthy dog, and, if they find it acceptable, take responsibility
> for the inherent uncertainty of breeding. I don't want to sell to
> someone who thinks that since they have paid their money it is my
> responsibility to deliver a perfect "product."

I definitely agree with you there. I don't expect a perfect dog, such
things don't exist. I don't expect a lifetime guarantee on health or a
refund policy either. I wouldn't return a dog for blindness, lameness,
thyroid or any other health condition but if I'm paying a high purchase
price for a quality dog, I want to know that health testing is done and no
major defects have shown up in the lines. I wouldn't buy a pup from a
litter of OFA-fair or worse parents because the chance of dealing with
dysplasia is higher. One of the biggest reasons I would go to an ethical
breeder rather than a byb, and pay a significantly higher purchase price, is
for the insurance of knowing the lines and knowing they don't have any
significant problems.


> I will take a dog of mine back at any time. This is "no questions
> asked" in an effort to make people feel safe calling me to return
> their dog. But it is an unhappy situation. It would mean that the
> placement is a failure, and when I interview prospective owners,
> I want every placement to be a success. If someone gave me the
> impression they were too interested in that clause--not committed
> to the dog--I would cross them off my list.

I understand this POV but don't see interest in a take-back clause as a
purely negative thing or solely indicative of the buyer's intent. Sometimes
all it indicates is a person's need to know that they won't be putting money
into the pockets of a breeder whose dogs end up in shelters or rescues. I
do explain upfront that I run a rescue, give the link to our website, and
offer references. It shouldn't be difficult for a breeder to figure out
that if I'm asking about a take-back clause, its likely to do with the fact
that I'm actively bailing dogs out of situations that they wouldn't have
been in if the breeder had taken responsibility for them.


> On the subject of price, there are a lot of people for whom it is
> an important criterion but for some reason they think it's rude
> to ask up front. If you have a price range, let's talk about that
> first! I hate it when I spend forty-five minutes on the phone
> telling about my dogs and asking about the prospective owner, only
> to find out that my puppies are out of their price range.

Alot of breeders find it highly upsetting to be asked about price at all.
On the one hand I can understand that but on the other, I don't think its an
issue that should evoke such volatile emotions. Not everyone has $1000 to
drop on a puppy's purchase price and finding that out up front, as you
suggest, is a good way for all parties involved to know if their
communications should end or continue.


> Another issue, which may or may not be important to the breeder
> who snubbed you, is that a good relationship between breeder and
> buyer is good for the puppy and good for the breeding program, in
> that the breeder gets feedback about the dog. Placement is not
> only about your meeting their criteria and their meeting your
> criteria--it's also about comfort and communication.

That's the thing though. It was the lifetime relationship that I was
specifically addressing in a positive way. I was polite, forthcoming and
gave tons of info on myself. I honestly don't see how someone who emails
you a 3 page email with bio, references, knowledge of the breed and
questions could be a bad thing. I adore prospective adopters who email me
with lots of questions and tell me about themselves in detail. IMO it shows
a great willingness to communicate.


> Of course, it could be that this breeder's experience and
> confidence in her track record of producing good dogs is such that
> she doesn't want to jump through hoops to prove herself to
> everyone that comes along.

I think you hit the nail on the head but I find that kind of arrogance
unworthy. I'm really good at what I do for a living but I'd still be
expected to provide a resume and/or credentials to prospective clients. I'm
not the only person in my line of work, just like this breeder isn't the
only one breeding good Labs. I expect to prove myself to people when it
comes to my experience and would think that if nothing else, the same thing
gives a good breeder the chance to brag about her accomplishments.


> I guess what this whole email amounts
> to is that breeding good puppies isn't necessarily a "consumer-
> oriented" activity. In my work I try to meet people's expectations
> and do a good job; when I breed dogs it is to my own standards.
> Maybe this is the main source of discordance with prospective
> buyers--when they seem to implicitly assume that my sole purpose
> is to satisfy the consumer.

Here again, I understand what you're saying but that kind of situation is
not the type that I have created with any breeder. I seek them out because
they are already breeding what I like and want from what I am able to gather
prior to contacting them. I don't contact people with a list of demands
that they aren't able to meet. My requirements are simple...proven
companion animal temperament & lines free of major genetic defects. I'd add
yellow to the list as well but then I only select from breeders who are
already producing yellow dogs.


> Sorry to ramble. I suggest you just "let it go" as a mismatch.

Oh I let it go right after it happened but was reminded of it tonight when I
emailed a breeder who was recommended to me but who doesn't know me from
Adam. It just clicked that "oh, I hope this breeder doesn't take the
offense as the last." I also posted because I think its an important topic
to discuss. You so often see recommendations for seeking out an ethical
breeder, doing tons of research and asking alot of questions when people
post about wanting a puppy. Here, all those things were done and instead of
the breeder being willing to talk or impressed with the amount of
forethought I put into contacting her, she considered me intrusive or
something.

Obviously breeders' ideas of how the process should work do not always jibe
with the buyers' ideas (which are often recommended steps in most books,
websites and word of mouth). It seems that if there are going to be
discrepancies in what's considered appropriate then it should be brought to
light and discussed.


--
Tara
 >> Stay informed about: Offended a Breeder 

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I was more airing my personal
POV than trying to find fault with your approach.

"Tara O." wrote:
> > I can see that but on the flip side, don't you, as a breeder, grill
> prospective buyers to make sure they measure up to your standards?

Actually I don't. I feel I can find out more by letting people
talk, and gently steering the conversation to cover any topics
they don't spontaneously include. I ask them to tell me about
their previous dog(s), their plans and goals for this one, what
they are looking for, etc. I worry if I lead them too much they
will tell me what I want to hear--or become educated as to what
to tell another breeder.

I have a definite list of things I want to find out, don't get me
wrong. But letting people talk, they also volunteer a lot of
interesting information I might not think to ask about, and I
learn about less tangible things.

> wouldn't call my questions to breeders grilling though. I'm always very
> upfront, give a full bio of myself, why I want a Lab, what I know about
> Labs, what my plans are for the dog and then ask about the health,
> temperament and policies so the breeder can see where I'm coming from, a bit
> about who I am and so on. I know I'm always polite since this particular
> breeder is the only one to have been put out with my questions. The others
> have always been happy to open the lines of communication and talk about
> their dogs.

I am sure I would be happy with your approach--and, if I was to
breed one of my Labs, would know almost immediately that my puppies
wouldn't be what you'd want!

I do think "temperament" is a tricky word. I have definite ideas on
the subject and will wash a breeding prospect for that alone--but I
feel that a lot of people either just pay it lip service, or have a
vague idea of a "nice dog." I own a Lab who was raised in a kennel
to the age of four months (when I bought him), and has been
delightful, adaptable, gentle, incredible with children, and
recently, when he had surgery for a distichia and two eyelid tumors,
needed only a local and no sedative. The vet students who assisted
were amazed. That I like. Any kind of possessiveness, spookiness,
or aggression, on the other hand, is wrong in a Lab. IMO a Lab
should be adaptable and stable even if socialization is largely
neglected.
>
> I definitely agree with you there. I don't expect a perfect dog, such
> things don't exist. I don't expect a lifetime guarantee on health or a
> refund policy either. I wouldn't return a dog for blindness, lameness,
> thyroid or any other health condition but if I'm paying a high purchase
> price for a quality dog, I want to know that health testing is done and no
> major defects have shown up in the lines. I wouldn't buy a pup from a
> litter of OFA-fair or worse parents because the chance of dealing with
> dysplasia is higher.

I disagree with you here. You might look into the inheritance
pattern of polygenic traits a bit. With a trait like hip dysplasia,
the status of full siblings tells you more about a given dog's
probable genetic potential than does the phenotype of that dog itself.
OR, as is sometimes stated, a dog with OFA Fair, all of whose siblings
passed OFA (assuming some number of siblings) is a better bet than a dog
with OFA Excellent who had one or more siblings fail.

But an awful lot of breeders will only include Goods and Excellents
and pay no attention to sibling ratings. Not only does this rule
out some dogs of merit, it's ineffective.
>
> Alot of breeders find it highly upsetting to be asked about price at all.
> On the one hand I can understand that but on the other, I don't think its an
> issue that should evoke such volatile emotions. Not everyone has $1000 to
> drop on a puppy's purchase price and finding that out up front, as you
> suggest, is a good way for all parties involved to know if their
> communications should end or continue.

Sometimes it bugs me when people tell my my puppies are too much for
them, if they seem to imply that there's no reason to charge that
amount. But it beats losing 45 minutes of my life.
> > >
> Obviously breeders' ideas of how the process should work do not always jibe
> with the buyers' ideas (which are often recommended steps in most books,
> websites and word of mouth). It seems that if there are going to be
> discrepancies in what's considered appropriate then it should be brought to
> light and discussed.
>
Those lists usually bug me, but I guess most people just want to get a dog,
they don't want to receive a complete education in "the world of purebred
dogs and how breeders operate." So a tool they can use, which often takes
the form of a list, is helpful.

Amy Dahl
 >> Stay informed about: Offended a Breeder 

Andrea wrote:
> > > 3. No history of PRA or severe allergies
>
> You might want to define "history". Does this mean that no dog in the
> pedigree (or its siblings) *anywhere* can have produced it, or does it mean
> with in the last X number of generations? I would not consider my Basenjis
> to have a "history" of PRA, but there is a PRA producer a number of
> generations back.
>
On PRA and CERF in Labs:

You could look for a breeder who has had the Optigen PRA linkage
(DNA) test done on the dam (or bred to a sire that is clear). If
either sire or dam is Pattern A, they do not carry the PRA gene.
Since it is recessive, they cannot throw a puppy with the disorder
even if bred to a carrier (or untested dog). Takes the guesswork
out of pedigree analysis. PRA is rare enough in Labs it could
easily crop up in lines with no history. It is also rare enough
that there may not be a lot of breeders testing. I think there
is also a "false allele" problem with the marker test--if a dog
is rated Pattern A, it is a non-carrier, but there are also
other non-carriers that don't test as Pattern A.

If you're going to be picky about testing in Labs, you might look
for a breeder who takes the litter to be CERFed. Retinal Dysplasia
(RD) is easily detected in 8 week old puppies, but can go unnoticed
in an older dog. The more severe forms of RD do impair vision.

PRA is not noticed on a CERF exam unless really advanced. Most
of the other stuff either won't stop them from passing or, although
it will fail them, won't affect the life of a non-breeding Lab.

Amy Dahl
 >> Stay informed about: Offended a Breeder 

"Tara O." <boxertara RemoveThis @netscape.net> wrote in message
news:bho2c7$1b05o$1@ID-92443.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> Sorry for not being more clear. No history for me means no immediate
> history..say 3rd generation to present.

I mean up to three generations back..not 3rd generation in the entire line.
It'd be nice to have all clears up to 5 generations back but I'm comfortable
with 3 :)


--
Tara
 >> Stay informed about: Offended a Breeder 

"Tara O." <boxertara RemoveThis @netscape.net> wrote in message news:

> I mean up to three generations back..not 3rd generation in the entire line.
> It'd be nice to have all clears up to 5 generations back but I'm comfortable
> with 3 :)

That's the kind of question that flows naturally out of discussion of
specific planned breeding, rather than a more general approach on
breeding program or practices. I think the best approach to any
breeder is "I'm starting to plan for a puppy. If you have a planned
litter, can you tell me about it. I'm looking for
pet/show/trial/whatever." IOW, start from the point of the dogs
instead of contracts, just as you would start with a potential rescue
adopter by asking them to tell you about their last dog.

Lynn K.
 >> Stay informed about: Offended a Breeder 

Perhaps the breeder reads The Puppy Wizard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Forum and KNOWS YOU'RE
the DOG LOVER / RESCUER who HURT INTIMIDATED
and MURDERED YOUR LAST DOG, Summer?

The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >

"Tara O." <boxertara.DeleteThis@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:bhmpnf$13a5u$1@ID-92443.news.uni-berlin.de...
> I forgot to post this a while back. I just remembered it
because I was
> sending an inquiry to a Lab breeder I haven't previously
corresponded with.
> We've been researching kennels/lines for our next Lab for quite
a while now.
> We've been approved by several breeders but for one reason or
another, the
> litters that have hit the ground were not ones we ended up
purchasing from.
> Our specifications:
>
> 1. Excellent, line proven, companion pet temperaments
> 2. OFA Excellent (will accept Good) on hips, elbows done & CERF
> 3. No history of PRA or severe allergies
> 4. Male
> 5. Light yellow to white
>
> BTW, the breeders I've been dealing with are primarily show
breeders but
> most are also dual-purpose breeders. All litters have at least
one Ch.
> parent and pedigrees on both sides from prominent, championship
lines. IOW
> we're looking for the blocky, shorter, thicker type Lab. I have
purposely
> stayed away from working line breeders because the conformation
is not to my
> liking and (more importantly) I don't want a dog with extremely
high drive
> because at most we'll be doing obedience work but certainly not
> hunting/retrieving at this time.
>
> Of the breeders I've spoken and written to the most, I have
found nothing
> wrong with any of them and would feel quite comfortable entering
into a
> relationship with them. We are still researching a few other
kennels though
> so after writing an email tonight, I remembered something from a
couple of
> months ago.
>
> I emailed a well-known breeder of Champion dogs, years of
experience, to
> inquire about an upcoming litter. I wanted to know the health
history in
> terms of genetic defects, how many of the pups usually end up
going to
> pet-homes, the health guarantee and the return policy. I was
very detailed
> in the reason I was asking the questions, making it well-known
that I'd done
> my research and this was not a "how much are your puppies and
when can I
> have one" email.
>
> I received a response that was fairly curt in tone and was
scolded for
> having asked about the return contract. I was told that the
very fact that
> I would ask about a return contract shows that I'm not committed
enough to a
> well-bred puppy to qualify for one from her breeding and that I
gave the
> distinct impression that I would return the dog over the
slightest thing. I
> emailed her back and said that I was interviewing her, which is
my right as
> an informed buyer, and that I wanted to know about all the
provisions in
> place as well as the history before deciding that she was
someone I'd enjoy
> having a breeder/buyer relationship with. I explained that I'm
in rescue
> for a different breed and that being asked such questions in
advance is
> always a sign, to me, that the prospective adopter has given
this alot of
> thought. I told her that I was sorry if she was offended but
that in
> return, I felt offended for asking perfectly legitimate
questions. I never
> got a response to that.
>
> I honestly put nothing in that email that would intimate that I
had
> intentions of returning a pup and that I was half-hearted about
getting and
> raising a Lab. I didn't even know how much her pups were and
didn't ask.
> Does anyone else here think that her response was
understandable? I should
> also mention that I got no answers to my other questions except
"all of our
> dogs are proven healthy".
>
> --
> Tara
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Offended a Breeder 

HOWE bHOWET cannibalism?

"Amy Dahl" <amy RemoveThis @oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:3F3F37C7.42A94043@oakhillkennel.com...
>
>
> Andrea wrote:
> > > > 3. No history of PRA or severe allergies
> >
> > You might want to define "history". Does this mean that no dog
in the
> > pedigree (or its siblings) *anywhere* can have produced it, or
does it mean
> > with in the last X number of generations? I would not consider
my Basenjis
> > to have a "history" of PRA, but there is a PRA producer a
number of
> > generations back.
> >
> On PRA and CERF in Labs:
>
> You could look for a breeder who has had the Optigen PRA linkage
> (DNA) test done on the dam (or bred to a sire that is clear).
If
> either sire or dam is Pattern A, they do not carry the PRA gene.
> Since it is recessive, they cannot throw a puppy with the
disorder
> even if bred to a carrier (or untested dog). Takes the
guesswork
> out of pedigree analysis. PRA is rare enough in Labs it could
> easily crop up in lines with no history. It is also rare enough
> that there may not be a lot of breeders testing. I think there
> is also a "false allele" problem with the marker test--if a dog
> is rated Pattern A, it is a non-carrier, but there are also
> other non-carriers that don't test as Pattern A.
>
> If you're going to be picky about testing in Labs, you might
look
> for a breeder who takes the litter to be CERFed. Retinal
Dysplasia
> (RD) is easily detected in 8 week old puppies, but can go
unnoticed
> in an older dog. The more severe forms of RD do impair vision.
>
> PRA is not noticed on a CERF exam unless really advanced. Most
> of the other stuff either won't stop them from passing or,
although
> it will fail them, won't affect the life of a non-breeding Lab.
>
> Amy Dahl
 >> Stay informed about: Offended a Breeder 

Amy Dahl <amy RemoveThis @oakhillkennel.com> wrote:
>Actually I don't. I feel I can find out more by letting people
>talk, and gently steering the conversation to cover any topics
>they don't spontaneously include.

Though I'm coming from a rescue (not breeding) perspective,
I'm definitely with Amy on this one. I find casual conversation
far more revealing than a detailed bio or questionnaire would
be.

This was one of the lessons learned in one of my earliest
experience placing a dog. I had a prospective home that on
the surface appeared to be excellent (had had several
Briards over the years, and had one now). One bugaboo
was that they didn't have a fenced yard and lived in
a densely populated part of a city. This, in and of
itself, didn't rule them out as adopters to me; at the
point in the conversation I'm about to relate, I had
already cautioned the wife a number of times that I
would expect them to keep the dog on a leash whenever
he was in the yard, and she had agreed without hesitation.

Then we moved onto the point of training, and she was
bragging about how well-behaved her current Briard
was. "Why, one day I was doing the dishes and looked
out the window and saw him in the neighbors' yard--
but he came right when I called him!"

(No, she didn't get a dog from me.)

Dianne
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