Lab has allergies - Need Help!

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:44:44 +0000 (UTC), Shelly wrote:

>cathyh@flipmail.com wrote in
>4ax.com:
>
>> How did you and your vet determine that your dog was allergic
>> to food components as opposed to, say, environmental elements?
>> Medical tests? Simple experimentation?
>
>Process of elimination. Her allergies are year round. She's had
>them while living in three different towns. The logical place to
>look, then, was diet.
>
>There *are* allergy tests that can be performed, but my vet didn't
>recommend them in our case. My understanding is that they are
>expensive and not very reliable for food allergies. (Testing for
>inhalent or contact allergies might be more accurate, though.)

Well, I'm glad you were able to identify and treat the allergic
condition.

On a frustration scale (for me), dog allergies rank just below
"getting old and dying". :-)

Thanks,
Cathy
 >> Stay informed about: Lab has allergies - Need Help! 

--
*The first casualty of war is always truth*
"Nick" wrote in message

> chardonnay9 wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>>
>>>> You have to eliminate the problem, not hide it.
>>>
>>> Sometimes eliminating the problem involves medication.
>>
>> Steroids and Benedryl don't eliminate anything. All they are good for is
>> hiding things and both have sometimes severe side effects. I'd never
>> give a dog either one. Guess I'm a lot pickier about what my dogs get
>> than you are.
>>
>>
> <snip>
>
> How about a secondary infection caused by itching resulting from
> allergies? Using Prednisone to control the allergic reaction so the
> itching stops you can then treat the skin infection. If the itching
> were not controlled the skin infection could be in a position to not be
> treatable.
>
> I had just that happen with one of my old Cairn Terriers. He had severe
> food allergies, he needed the offending ingredient removed from his
> diet, he needed prednisone to take care of his itching and he needed an
> anti fungal topical medication to handle the fungal infection that
> resulted from the raw skin from the itching. As it took over a year to
> fully diagnose everything that was going on, and during that year each
> of those treatments was attempted individually without success (as well
> as many others), sometimes you need to cover up the effects of the
> problem so the problem can be dealt with.
>
> You're a kook.
>
> Nick
 >> Stay informed about: Lab has allergies - Need Help! 

Nick posted this regarding what Chard wrote

>...sometimes you need to cover up the effects of the
> problem so the problem can be dealt with.

You're right. It's about making the dog *comfortable* while diagnosing and
eliminating the cause.

> You're a kook.

You're right about that too. She likes to hear herself type.
 >> Stay informed about: Lab has allergies - Need Help! 

Shelly wrote:
> "chardonnay9" wrote in message
>
>
>> And as I posted earlier there are other alternatives to relief that
>> aren't nearly as dangerous. Why not choose them instead?
>
> Short term use of presnisone in canines carries a low risk of serious
> side effects. It does cause salt retention, so increased thirst and
> urination are common, but for just a couple of weeks, I found the
> trade-off to be acceptable.
>
>> Prednisone impairs healing! It should have never taken more than a
>> year to diagnose the problem.
>
> No one is saying it should be used as a diagnostic tool, you tool.

Neither did I.

And
> *no* one here has recommended putting a dog on it for a year.
>

Do you have a problem with comprehension? The second sentence does not
rely on any information from the first. I was not suggesting the dog was
on prednisone for a year. Stop looking for fault where there is none!

And still nobody can tell me why an alternative with much less side
effects should be used instead of something that causes so many
problems. Increased thirst and urination is the only side effects, is
that what you are saying?

Those are the most common but hardly the only ones. It can cause
psychoses for goodness sakes!
 >> Stay informed about: Lab has allergies - Need Help! 

In article ,
chardonnay9 wrote:
>And still nobody can tell me why an alternative with much less side
>effects should be used instead of something that causes so many
>problems.

Your premise is wrong. Nobody is saying that. Perhaps
they're saying that the alternative you're proposing is
ineffective. Or is used to treat something else entirely.

There's one person here making dogmatic assertions about
stuff that should or should not be used, and that's you.

>Those are the most common but hardly the only ones. It can cause
>psychoses for goodness sakes!

[sitting on my hands, typing with my nose]
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore.TakeThisOut@panix.com

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
 >> Stay informed about: Lab has allergies - Need Help! 

"chardonnay9" wrote in message

> Neither did I.

That's obvious. But your criticism is a strawman, as you are objecting
to a point that was never made.

> Do you have a problem with comprehension? The second sentence does not
> rely on any information from the first. I was not suggesting the dog
> was on prednisone for a year. Stop looking for fault where there is
> none!

What's your point? What you just did was the equivalent of saying that
water is dangerous because your dog could drown in it. Duh. Prednisone
can have very serious side effects if taken long term. NO ONE has
recommended its long-term use[1], nor has anyone said that long-term use
is without serious side effects.

> And still nobody can tell me why an alternative with much less side
> effects should be used instead of something that causes so many
> problems. Increased thirst and urination is the only side effects, is
> that what you are saying?

It was for my dog.

> Those are the most common but hardly the only ones. It can cause
> psychoses for goodness sakes!

Exactly how common do you think that sort of reaction is in dogs, when
given short-term?

[1] No one has recommended its use, period.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
 >> Stay informed about: Lab has allergies - Need Help! 

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message

> In article ,
> chardonnay9 wrote:
>>And still nobody can tell me why an alternative with much less side
>>effects should be used instead of something that causes so many
>>problems.
>
> Your premise is wrong. Nobody is saying that. Perhaps
> they're saying that the alternative you're proposing is
> ineffective. Or is used to treat something else entirely.

Well, re-read her sentence carefully. Ha! No, I can't tell her why her
"alternative" should be used. I mean, c'mon. I'm all for alternative
medicine (Ayurveda, anyone?), but I draw the line at treating my dog's
allergies with Reiki. Whatever placebo effect it might have for humans
would be lost on dogs, I think.

Not to mention that "so many problems" consisted of having to take my
dog out more frequently. In the end, it was a minor inconvenience.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
 >> Stay informed about: Lab has allergies - Need Help! 

wrote in message


> Well, I'm glad you were able to identify and treat the allergic
> condition.

Thanks!

> On a frustration scale (for me), dog allergies rank just below
> "getting old and dying". :-)

They're a royal PITA. They can be hard to pin down, and when you do
finally figure them out, they can change.

Good luck!

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
 >> Stay informed about: Lab has allergies - Need Help! 

chardonnay9 wrote:

>
> And as I posted earlier there are other alternatives to relief that
> aren't nearly as dangerous. Why not choose them instead?
>
> Prednisone impairs healing! It should have never taken more than a year
> to diagnose the problem. I guess your vet saw how green your money was
> and didn't want to hurry to relieve the suffering. How sad!


As you never saw the severity of the allergies, nor the severity of the
skin infection you are in no place to determine what is an appropriate
length of time for a complete diagnosis.

First the ingredients which caused the allergies needed to be
determined, then the itching needed to be controlled and then finally
the fungal infection needed to be treated. Several times, partial
treatment caused him to 'get better', only to relapse because all the
problems were not taken care of at once. Since it could take over a
month to see results in diet change on his allergies and he had several
food allergies I don't think a year is an unreasonable time frame.
During that year various medications were used to provide comfort from
the itching. Some worked better than others, ultimately to get him to
completely stop itching, prednisone was required.

Nick
 >> Stay informed about: Lab has allergies - Need Help! 

"Nick" wrote in message


> Since it could take over a
> month to see results in diet change on his allergies and he had
> several
> food allergies I don't think a year is an unreasonable time frame.
> During that year various medications were used to provide comfort from
> the itching. Some worked better than others, ultimately to get him to
> completely stop itching, prednisone was required.

Good grief! So that's where Chard got the year time-frame from? I took
it to mean that you had worked for a year to get the allergies under
control, using various methods, one of which was a short course of
prednisone. And even if your dog was on pred for a year, I'm sure you
were in frequent consultation with your vet, and that the apperance of
any serious side effects would have had you both re-evaluating your
course of treatment. I mean, duh. Why Chard cannot comprehend this is
mind-boggling. Then again, she views vets as The Enemy, not as allies.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
 >> Stay informed about: Lab has allergies - Need Help! 

Shelly wrote:
> "chardonnay9" wrote in message

>> Prednisone impairs healing! It should have never taken more than a
>> year to diagnose the problem.
>
>
> No one is saying it should be used as a diagnostic tool, you tool. And
> *no* one here has recommended putting a dog on it for a year.
>

I had a dog on low-dose prednisone continually for over two years. He
had chronic active hepatitis. When he was on the low-dose pred
(10mg/day) his ALT levels fell (hint to Chard, that is a GOOD thing
since it indicates that fewer liver cells are dying). Normal is about
150. On low-dose pred, his dropped from about 800-1000 to about 250.

This dog was part of a medical study done by one of the world leaders in
canine liver disease. He was followed weekly with a blood draw. As part
of the study, several herbal remedies, including milk thistle, were
tried. Not only were they less effective than the pred at bringing down
his ALT levels, they caused some undesireable side effects, including
excessive urination and some pretty major temperament changes; my
normally completely sweet dog became very irascible.

The low-dose pred slowed the progress of his disease enough that he
lived for over six years past diagnosis. Without it he would have been
dead far sooner and, in fact, it was Wobblers that got him in the end,
not CAH.

So yes, prednisone, even long term, can be very beneficial for certain
diseases.
 >> Stay informed about: Lab has allergies - Need Help! 

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Nick wrote:
> chardonnay9 wrote:
>
>> And as I posted earlier there are other alternatives to relief that
>> aren't nearly as dangerous. Why not choose them instead?
>>
>> Prednisone impairs healing! It should have never taken more than a year
>> to diagnose the problem. I guess your vet saw how green your money was
>> and didn't want to hurry to relieve the suffering. How sad!
>
>
> As you never saw the severity of the allergies, nor the severity of the
> skin infection you are in no place to determine what is an appropriate
> length of time for a complete diagnosis.
>
> First the ingredients which caused the allergies needed to be
> determined, then the itching needed to be controlled and then finally
> the fungal infection needed to be treated. Several times, partial
> treatment caused him to 'get better', only to relapse because all the
> problems were not taken care of at once. Since it could take over a
> month to see results in diet change on his allergies and he had several
> food allergies I don't think a year is an unreasonable time frame.
> During that year various medications were used to provide comfort from
> the itching. Some worked better than others, ultimately to get him to
> completely stop itching, prednisone was required.
>
> Nick

Prednisone is never "required". It's just the choice of whomever treated.

And I guess allopathic methods just take a great deal longer than
holistic methods to diagnose? It takes ten days to feed a dog just
chicken and notice if it's still itching. Takes ten more to switch to
beef and do it again.

I wouldn't be surprised if the dog is also being given such harmful
things like Rymadil or K9 Advantix as well. Any chemicals on the dog
could be the cause of the problem or causing the problem to be worse.
 >> Stay informed about: Lab has allergies - Need Help!