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Next: Animals Rights: The Great "animal rights" Lie of Omission
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Since: Jul 01, 2003 Posts: 632
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:38 am
Post subject: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to Defend - the Whales Archived from groups: alt>animals>ethics>vegetarian, others (more info?)
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Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd
Prepares to Defend - the Whales
Japan has been ruthless in their pursuit and massacre
of the world's great whales. It has become a matter of
honour according to some Japanese to kill as many
whales as they can in order to assert their dominance
over the world's oceans.
According to Joji Morishita of the Japanese Fisheries
Agency who spoke on the Australian program 60
minutes, the killing of whales is a part of Japan's
identity and a question of national pride, and he asks
what is a nation without pride?
But surely they would not exterminates the whales.
Or would they?
Back in 1997 Captain Paul Watson had the opportunity
to sit down and speak with members of the Japanese
delegation in Monaco.
Captain Watson asked whaling delegate Tadahiko
Nakamura directly if he was concerned about the
survival of the whales and would he like to have his
children and grand-children see the whales.
His answer was shocking. "No," he said. "My duty
is to my family, mu country and my company and
that duty is to make as much profit as I can for them
today. I am not concerned with future generations.
They will have to find ways to survive just as we
must find ways to survive today."
Captain Watson then asked if he was concerned that
the whales would go extinct? "They may go extinct
but that is not my concern. My concern is to realize
the maximum profit from them before they do."
This echoes the sentiments of Andrew Behr, the
owner of the pirate whaler Sierra that Captain Watson
rammed and disabled on July 16, 1979 and sank on
February 6th, 1980.n the Sea.
Behr said that he was aware that whales could be
driven to extinction and if they were going to go
extinct then why not make as much profit from them
before they do.
The Japanese hold whale conservationists in contempt.
They see anyone opposed to whaling as standing in the
way of their illicit profits.
Since 1986, Japan has been killing whales in violation
of the global moratorium on whaling. Each year they
have illegally upped the kill quotas and during the last
two decades that the whales have been "protected"
more than 17,000 whales have been slaughtered.
The International Whaling Commission has done very
little to stop the carnage. The IWC has great regulations
but non-existent enforcement. The member nations of
the IWC like Australia and the United States have been
reluctant to enforce sanctions for fear of trade retaliations
by Japan.
The fact remains that Japanese and Norwegian whaling
is illegal and if nothing else the regulations of the
International Whaling Commission have served to give
legitimacy to Sea Shepherd efforts to oppose outlaw
whaling since 1986.
The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society has been the
only enforcement agency government or non-governmental,
defending the whales over the last 20 years beginning with
our sinking of half the Icelandic whaling fleet in November
1986 to the scuttling of illegal Norwegian whalers dockside
in 1992, 1994 and 1998. This year we harassed and pursued
the Japanese whaling fleet in the Antarctic Whale Sanctuary.
We did not commit any crimes with our intervention because
we were enforcing international conservation law in accordance
with the provisions of the U.N. World Charter for Nature
which allows for non-governmental organizations to intervene
to uphold international conservation law.
For this reason there have been no criminal charges brought
against Sea Shepherd crew for these interventions. Criminals
are reluctant to retaliate with the law especially when such
retaliation would further expose and provide documentation
and evidence of the illegal activities that Sea Shepherd is
intervening against.
Japan is now seeking to change the laws protecting whales
by working to overturn the IWC global moratorium on
whaling. And they are succeeding.
For the last few years Japan has been using foreign aid to
seduce and then recruit small poor nations to join the IWC.
These nation then have their IWC memberships paid by
Japan and like little Japanese fiefdoms they vote as they
are told and they are being told to vote for the resumption
of whaling and to back Japanese objectives 100%
Last year, Japan succeeded in recruiting an equal number
of votes as the whale conservation nations. This year they
have surpassed that number and they now hold the majority.
In a sneaky move reminiscent of the cowardly attack on
Pearl Harbor, Japan just this week announced that the
Marshall Islands and Cambodia have been bought and will
vote with Japan at next weeks IWC meeting in St. Kitts.
(June 16-20).
Japan now has 36 votes among the 69 member nations
of the IWC.
The first thing Japan intends to do is call for a vote to
scrap the IWC's conservation committee.
The conservation committee was set up in 2003 to
study measures to preserve whales.
In other words Japan and their 35 puppet nations are
opposed to taking measures to preserve the whales.
Japan also intends to call for a vote on a resolution
supporting its "research" whaling in the Antarctic Ocean
and anywhere else in the world it decides to kill whales
What does this mean for the Sea Shepherd Conservation
Society?
It means Sea Shepherd must stop the Japanese fleet in
Antarctica this year while the moratorium is in effect.
In addition to violating the moratorium, the Japanese
fleet will be violating the Convention on the International
Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) by targeting 50
endangered Humpback and 50 endangered Fin whales.
Japan will also be violating the Antarctic Whale Sanctuary
and the Australian Antarctic Territory Economic Exclusion
Zone. In addition Japan will be in violation of United Stated
Department of Commerce regulations.
This means that despite whatever gains Japan wins at the
IWC meeting in St. Kitts, their whaling operations will
continue to be illegal and thus Sea Shepherd can continue
to legitimately intervene against illegal whaling operations.
The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society is presently
recruiting volunteers and preparing a ship to intervene
once again against illegal whaling in the Southern Oceans
in December 2006 and January 2007.
Last year the Japanese fleet was opposed by the Sea
Shepherd ship Farley Mowat and Japanese whaling
operations were documented by the Greenpeace ships
Esperanza and Arctic Sunrise.
Greenpeace will not be returning to Antarctic waters this
year leaving the Sea Shepherd crew to tackle the whalers
alone.
"These whalers are criminals," said Captain Paul Watson.
"They are no different than ivory smugglers and drug
traffickers. We must once again intervene against their
illegal operations and our objective must be to stop them
from their plans to slaughter these magnificent and
endangered creatures."
Captain Watson expects the campaign to be expensive,
and dangerous and he expects the Japanese whalers to
be hostile to any interference. >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 08, 2006 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"pearl" <lesley DeleteThis @foot.rub> wrote:
> Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd
> Prepares to Defend - the Whales
>
> Japan has been ruthless in their pursuit and massacre
> of the world's great whales. It has become a matter of
> honour according to some Japanese to kill as many
> whales as they can in order to assert their dominance
> over the world's oceans.
Why do you support this overtly racist smear campaign of a known terrorist group like Sea Shepherd? You make me sick. >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 08, 2006 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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chico chupacabra <support.RemoveThis@our.troops> wrote:
>"pearl" <lesley.RemoveThis@foot.rub> wrote:
>
>> Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares
>> to Defend - the Whales
>>
>> Japan has been ruthless in their pursuit and massacre of
>> the world's great whales. It has become a matter of honour
>> according to some Japanese to kill as many whales as they
>> can in order to assert their dominance over the world's
>> oceans.
>
>Why do you support this overtly racist smear campaign of a
>known terrorist group like Sea Shepherd? You make me sick.
That was the wildest, most outlandishly *false* output from
Watson's racist bunch since they initially went wild over the
Makah Indians a decade ago.
Something tells me Japan may actually *be* getting close to
a political victory over these idiots.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd.RemoveThis@apaflo.com >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 08, 2006 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:25 am
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: alt>animals>ethics>vegetarian, others (more info?)
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"Ronald 'More-More' Moshki" <sector_four DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
> > chico chupacabra <support DeleteThis @our.troops> wrote:
> > >"pearl" <lesley DeleteThis @foot.rub> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares
> > >> to Defend - the Whales
> > >>
> > >> Japan has been ruthless in their pursuit and massacre of
> > >> the world's great whales. It has become a matter of honour
> > >> according to some Japanese to kill as many whales as they
> > >> can in order to assert their dominance over the world's
> > >> oceans.
> > >
> > >Why do you support this overtly racist smear campaign of a
> > >known terrorist group like Sea Shepherd? You make me sick.
> >
> > That was the wildest, most outlandishly *false* output from
> > Watson's racist bunch since they initially went wild over the
> > Makah Indians a decade ago.
> >
> > Something tells me Japan may actually *be* getting close to
> > a political victory over these idiots.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> The life of a salamander is worth more than
> 1,000000000000000000000000000000000
> of the combined lives of the last two posters.
>
> Make that the life of a microbe.
I've written before that you AR-types are misanthropes whose concern about animals is merely a phony veneer to hide your true contempt for your fellow man. Thanks for adding more support to my thesis. >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: talk>politics>animals, others (more info?)
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in article 1149905656.593994.122810.RemoveThis@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, Dr. bitter
anko at kaz762.RemoveThis@hotmail.com wrote on 6/10/06 11:14 AM:
>
> Ernest Schaal $B$N%a%C%;!<%8(B:
>
>> Because of your shame at Japan's actions on the matter?
>
> Do you know why the Commodore Perry came to the shore of Uraga and
> required Japan to open trade with the US?
>
> Yes, it was for WHALING. The US was the country which kills the largest
> number of the whales for its needs of industries in the US using the
> oil of whales at that time. They stopped the excessive hunting of
> whales after the discovery of petroleum, however, because of the
> excessive hunting of the US at that time, the number of the whales was
> tremendously decreased, and it's the cause of the shortage today.
>
> So according to your logic, you should shame at the actions of your own
> people.
No, we stopped way before whales became endangered. Japan continues to this
day. >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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in article 87fyid38gh.fld.DeleteThis@apaflo.com, Floyd L. Davidson at floyd.DeleteThis@apaflo.com
wrote on 6/10/06 2:06 PM:
> Ernest Schaal <eschaal.DeleteThis@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>> in article 1149905656.593994.122810.DeleteThis@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, Dr. bitter
>> anko at kaz762.DeleteThis@hotmail.com wrote on 6/10/06 11:14 AM:
>>
>>>
>>> Ernest Schaal:
>>>
>>>> Because of your shame at Japan's actions on the matter?
>>>
>>> Do you know why the Commodore Perry came to the shore of Uraga and
>>> required Japan to open trade with the US?
>>>
>>> Yes, it was for WHALING. The US was the country which kills the largest
>>> number of the whales for its needs of industries in the US using the
>>> oil of whales at that time. They stopped the excessive hunting of
>>> whales after the discovery of petroleum, however, because of the
>>> excessive hunting of the US at that time, the number of the whales was
>>> tremendously decreased, and it's the cause of the shortage today.
>>>
>>> So according to your logic, you should shame at the actions of your own
>>> people.
>>
>> No, we stopped way before whales became endangered. Japan continues to this
>> day.
>
> Wrong. Check your facts.
>
> Japan is *not* engaging in "excessive hunting", and was never
> the one responsible for depleting whale stocks.
>
> The US was significantly involved in both, right up to the time
> it became non-economical. In fact, it is backwards for anyone
> in the US to accuse the Japanese of using research as an excuse
> for commercial whaling simply because, while the Japanese
> research actually *is* valid research, the US continued to
> hunt Sperm whales strictly for oil for some time after the
> moratorium was in place and used "research" as an excuse.
Researching what, the extinction of a species. Japan continues the practice
of whale hunting, despite world-wide condemnation, because some corrupt
politicians and businessmen like the taste of whale meat. >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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in article 1149921630.263745.96800.RemoveThis@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, Dr. bitter
anko at kaz762.RemoveThis@hotmail.com wrote on 6/10/06 3:40 PM:
>
> Ernest Schaal $B$N%a%C%;!<%8(B:
>
>> in article 1149905656.593994.122810.RemoveThis@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, Dr. bitter
>> anko at kaz762.RemoveThis@hotmail.com wrote on 6/10/06 11:14 AM:
>>
>>>
>>> Ernest Schaal $B$N%a%C%;!<%8(B:
>>>
>>>> Because of your shame at Japan's actions on the matter?
>>>
>>> Do you know why the Commodore Perry came to the shore of Uraga and
>>> required Japan to open trade with the US?
>>>
>>> Yes, it was for WHALING. The US was the country which kills the largest
>>> number of the whales for its needs of industries in the US using the
>>> oil of whales at that time. They stopped the excessive hunting of
>>> whales after the discovery of petroleum, however, because of the
>>> excessive hunting of the US at that time, the number of the whales was
>>> tremendously decreased, and it's the cause of the shortage today.
>>>
>>> So according to your logic, you should shame at the actions of your own
>>> people.
>>
>> No, we stopped way before whales became endangered. Japan continues to this
>> day.
>
> You claim you have a college degree but I really doubt if you even have
> a highschool degree when I get your counterattack messages. Those
> having only kindergarten degrees but acting like a decent man is a
> fraud. Bwahahahaaaahahaaaa!
I would comment to this message, except that it is so weird I don't have the
faintest idea of what you are trying to say. As best I can make out, from
your incoherent ramblings, is that anyone who disagrees with you must be
uneducated and anyone who agrees with you can call themselves "Doctor," even
though they never finished middle school. >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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in article 1149935267.278905.266990.RemoveThis@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, Dr. bitter
anko at kaz762.RemoveThis@hotmail.com wrote on 6/10/06 7:27 PM:
>
> Ernest Schaal $B$N%a%C%;!<%8(B:
>
>> in article 1149921630.263745.96800.RemoveThis@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, Dr. bitter
>> anko at kaz762.RemoveThis@hotmail.com wrote on 6/10/06 3:40 PM:
>>
>>>
>>> Ernest Schaal $B$N%a%C%;!<%8(B:
>>>
>>>> in article 1149905656.593994.122810.RemoveThis@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, Dr. bitter
>>>> anko at kaz762.RemoveThis@hotmail.com wrote on 6/10/06 11:14 AM:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ernest Schaal $B$N%a%C%;!<%8(B:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Because of your shame at Japan's actions on the matter?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you know why the Commodore Perry came to the shore of Uraga and
>>>>> required Japan to open trade with the US?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it was for WHALING. The US was the country which kills the largest
>>>>> number of the whales for its needs of industries in the US using the
>>>>> oil of whales at that time. They stopped the excessive hunting of
>>>>> whales after the discovery of petroleum, however, because of the
>>>>> excessive hunting of the US at that time, the number of the whales was
>>>>> tremendously decreased, and it's the cause of the shortage today.
>>>>>
>>>>> So according to your logic, you should shame at the actions of your own
>>>>> people.
>>>>
>>>> No, we stopped way before whales became endangered. Japan continues to this
>>>> day.
>>>
>>> You claim you have a college degree but I really doubt if you even have
>>> a highschool degree when I get your counterattack messages. Those
>>> having only kindergarten degrees but acting like a decent man is a
>>> fraud. Bwahahahaaaahahaaaa!
>>
>> I would comment to this message, except that it is so weird I don't have the
>> faintest idea of what you are trying to say. As best I can make out, from
>> your incoherent ramblings, is that anyone who disagrees with you must be
>> uneducated and anyone who agrees with you can call themselves "Doctor," even
>> though they never finished middle school.
>
> The fact is, the US did not care about if they're endangered or not. If
> petroleum would not have been discovered as the substitute for the oil
> of the whales, the US would have hunted down all the whales of this
> planet, then they would have exterminated them.
>
> It's just a history of the US and should be a general study taught in
> elementary schools in the US, but you don't know so I thought you only
> have the credits of kindergarten or something.
Kaz, your extreme prejudice is showing. Japan is eliminating species and it
is the US's fault, because they stopped earlier. You are not making any
sense, as usual. >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:24 am
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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in article 8764j9tdpk.fld.RemoveThis@apaflo.com, Floyd L. Davidson at floyd.RemoveThis@apaflo.com
wrote on 6/10/06 9:08 PM:
> Ernest Schaal <eschaal.RemoveThis@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>> in article 87fyid38gh.fld.RemoveThis@apaflo.com, Floyd L. Davidson at floyd.RemoveThis@apaflo.com
>> wrote on 6/10/06 2:06 PM:
>>> Ernest Schaal <eschaal.RemoveThis@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>>>> No, we stopped way before whales became endangered. Japan continues to this
>>>> day.
>>>
>>> Wrong. Check your facts.
>
> Why not check your facts so that you do not continue to make
> false statements...
Okay, which of these facts are wrong? The fact that Japan is continuing to
hunt and kill whales? The fact that the US has stopped hunting and killing
whales?
>>> Japan is *not* engaging in "excessive hunting", and was never
>>> the one responsible for depleting whale stocks.
>>>
>>> The US was significantly involved in both, right up to the time
>>> it became non-economical. In fact, it is backwards for anyone
>>> in the US to accuse the Japanese of using research as an excuse
>>> for commercial whaling simply because, while the Japanese
>>> research actually *is* valid research, the US continued to
>>> hunt Sperm whales strictly for oil for some time after the
>>> moratorium was in place and used "research" as an excuse.
>>
>> Researching what, the extinction of a species.
>
> Cetacean biology is a very interesting field, and a very useful
> one too. Your ignorance and emotional attachment to that
> ignorance are not of any great significance to the world.
Cetacean biology may be a very interesting field, but the charade that the
the Japanese industry is merely doing research lacks credibility, in the
same way that Japanese claims that Japanese snow is so different from the
snow of other nations that it justifies the prevention of importation of
foreign skis into Japan.
If the Japanese in whale hunting were only in the interest of cetacean
biology, they could do the biology by non-lethal means.
>> Japan continues the practice
>> of whale hunting, despite world-wide condemnation,
>
> Do not mistake "condemnation" from around the world by
> misinformed people who are ignorant and attached to their
> ignorance with a emotional need (you, for example), with
> (actually non-existant) "world-wide condemnation".
>
> Keep in mind that Japan *is* following the International
> Convention for the Regulation of Whaling. Keep in mind
> that the Science Committee of the International Whaling
> Commission supports the Japanese position.
I will agree that Japan is following the International Convention for the
Regulation of Whaling, but a review of the Science Committee page on the
International Whaling Commission does not show that it "supports the
Japanese position."
On the contrary, here is a direct quote from that page:
"Commission review
There was considerable disagreement over the value of this research within
the Commission. A Resolution was passed (30 votes to 27 votes with 1
abstention) that strongly urged the Government of Japan to withdraw its
JARPA II proposal or to revise it so that any information needed to meet the
stated objectives of the proposal is obtained using non-lethal means. Japan
withdrew a proposed resolution in favour of the research programmes."
>> because some corrupt
>> politicians and businessmen like the taste of whale meat.
>
> Outbursts of emotion might make you feel good, but they won't
> win a debate for you, they won't change International Law, and
> they won't cause you to be viewed as anything other than a
> spoiled 4 year old by those who are truly interested in this
> topic.
The fact that the whaling continues, and that it is done to keep alive a
Japanese tradition of eating whale meat despite the fact that the Japanese
population is turning away from eating whale meat, and that the industry is
being kept afloat only by government money is highly indicative of
corruption. Anyway, we are talking about LDP politicians. Need I say more? >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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in article 1150013582.029130.319250.TakeThisOut@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, david @
tokyo at david.35472.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote on 6/11/06 5:13 PM:
>
> Ernest Schaal wrote:
>> The similarities is that the government is doing something that is
>> detrimental to the country rather than bow to a key political constituency.
>
> Well, I think we need to look at both sides of the coin.
>
> I think there would be quite big disadvantages for Japan were it to
> cave in to the irrational foreign pressure from a few countries urging
> it to stop whaling.
>
That assumes that the foreign pressure is irrational and that the countries
are few. The only ones supporting Japan in this matter are the countries
that Japan has bribed to do so.
>> Moral outrage doesn't always resort in the form of economic boycotts, which
>> are rarely effective. Instead, it is more political, like lack of support
>> for a Japanese permanent seat on the Security Council, or in international
>> negotiations.
>>
>> People will still buy their products, but the political results will be less
>> flexibility in negotiations in trade and other areas.
>
> I get the feeling that the anti-whaling nations will just get over it,
> shortly enough.
That is like the industrialists of the mid-twentieth century who thought
that the environmentalists would just get over it, shortly enough. Those
were the same type of industrialists who used to call pollution the "smell
of progress."
>
> The fact is that in countries opposed to whaling, those government have
> their own laws providing for the rational utilization of marine
> resources. I know New Zealand definitely has. I think at the highest
> level, the politicians from both sides understand that the opposition
> to whaling is one of political expediency. Anti-whaling nations have
> nothing to gain by supporting whaling, but they'll have Greenpeace and
> co at their ankles if they don't. That's all.
I don't think that's all. While nations may have laws for rational
utilization of marine resources, those laws apply to their territorial
waters. Most of the whaling is done outside the territorial waters of Japan.
>
>> The impact is not so much economic as political. Their statement that
>> nothing is wrong with whaling sounds hollow,
>
> There is nothing wrong with whaling, so long as it's sustainable and as
> humane as possible.
That is a value judgment on your part, a judgment I do not share. But I
wasn't commenting on whaling being wrong, instead I was commenting on
"statement that nothing is wrong with whaling" and how hollow it sounds.
Basically, the Japanese have zero credibility in this area.
>> like their statement that there is nothing in honoring dead war criminals,
>
> Do they honour dead war criminals?
I thought you lived in Japan. I am surprised you didn't know of the prime
minister's trips to Yasukuni Shrine, and the resulting uproar in the
countries that suffered at the hands of the Japanese Imperial Army during
the Pacific War.
>> or that there were no massacres in Nanking.
>
> Is that what Koizumi has been saying?
That is what some of his right-wing supporters are saying, the type of
supporters that are pressuring him to keep up the whale hunting.
>
>> Overall, whale consumption is down, as Japan becomes more urbanized and more
>> addicted to McDonalds. It simply isn't the cool thing to do.
>
> whale consumption would be down, because supply is limited.
No, whale consumption is down because whale meat is oily and doesn't taste
good.
>
> I'd not be doing anything to encourage Japanese people to eat more
> McDonalds if I were the govt.
You really think oily whale meat is more healthy?
>
>>> Anyway, the ICR is a research outfit, but they need to sell the whale
>>> meat off somehow, so this new geishoku labo business will fill the role
>>> of finding new markets and selling off the meat.
>>
>> While you call it a research outfit, with selling of whale meat as a
>> byproduct of that activity, the rest of the world isn't buying that.
>
> Who is the "rest of the world"?
>
> I'd say the people who think that are the people who actually know very
> very little about it.
Either that, or you are in a bad case of self denial.
>
>> Even it
>> it were true, which I doubt, public conception is that it is the research is
>> an excuse for commercial activities.
>
> That I can accept. That is the public conception in the anti-whaling
> nations.
>
> I don't accept that that is reality, because I've actually read the
> research, I've read what other scientists have said about it (credible
> ones not associated with anti-whaling organizations, I mean).
>
> This is a hard thing to change. The average joe bloggs of the general
> public is never going to be a marine mammal biologist to be able to
> follow the science, or even be stimulated enough to read it carefully.
The general population is not as stupid as you think, and especially not so
stupid as to fall for the ridiculous spin coming from the pro-whaling lobby.
>
>> It is sort of like saying that the tobacco industry is merely a research
>> industry, studying the effect of tobacco on health, and the cigarette sales
>> are merely a byproduct of that activity.
>
> Well, that's the reality at the moment in Japan because of the
> commercial whaling moratorium. It's not a voluntary situation.
>
> For the record, the commercial catch of southern hemisphere minke
> whales a few years prior to the moratorium being introduced was about
> 10 times the amount that the ICR is taking today.
So the moratorium is working?
>
>> Again, what you say might be true, but no one is going to believe it, any
>> more than they believe the tobacco industry.
>
> Right.
>
> But should we let ignorance determine national positions on matters of
> international importance?
>
> I'd be loath to see that myself.
You assume that your position is the informed one. I don't buy that, and I
have no reason to buy that.
>
>> The result of that is a culture of skepticism about the Japanese government
>> that will probably hurt Japan in the long run.
>
> It's nothing new.
> If anything, I think the anti-whaling culture is fading.
Dream on.
>
>>> The NGO's have a habit of reporting the size of the "stock pile" when
>>> the stock pile is at it's peak (after the whaling ships return to port
>>> and make the meat available). Another amusing criticism recently was
>>> that whale meat is being turned into pet food, yet on examination of
>>> the facts, I found that the ingredients were the small intestines of
>>> the whales and other parts that humans don't eat :-) The anti-whaling
>>> NGOs are very very creative in their reporting, I have found :-)
>>
>> The NGOs are a lot better at public relations than the Japanese government
>> is,
>
> Agreed.
>
> They have a simpler message to sell though.
>
> "Don't kill whales". Throw in a pciture of a whale breaching.
>
> Any old excuse will then do.
>
> Japan on the other hand is trying to argue for rational, science based
> management of whale stocks.
>
> Not as sexy, and not half as easy for your average joe to understand
> and be comfortable with.
Also, it passes the smell test, while the pro-whale lobby's arguments smell
fishy.
>
>> The current whaling scandal hurts Japan, in part because no one believes
>> them anymore.
>
> It's not true that no one believes them, and in saying that I'm not
> refering to myself.
No rational person believes them. >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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in article 1150014036.672274.240280.DeleteThis@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, david @
tokyo at david.35472.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote on 6/11/06 5:20 PM:
>
> Ernest Schaal wrote:
>> On the contrary, here is a direct quote from that page:
>>
>> "Commission review
>>
>
> This is an IWC quote, not an IWC Scientific Committee quote.
It was on the IWC Scientific Committee page.
Your credibility just did another nosedive. >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:45 am
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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in article 1150034967.349617.278950.DeleteThis@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, david @
tokyo at david.35472.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote on 6/11/06 11:09 PM:
>
> Ernest Schaal wrote:
>> in article 1150014036.672274.240280.DeleteThis@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, david @
>> tokyo at david.35472.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote on 6/11/06 5:20 PM:
>>
>>>
>>> Ernest Schaal wrote:
>>
>>>> On the contrary, here is a direct quote from that page:
>>>>
>>>> "Commission review
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is an IWC quote, not an IWC Scientific Committee quote.
>>
>> It was on the IWC Scientific Committee page.
>>
>> Your credibility just did another nosedive.
>
>
> Oh dear! I see someone has stuck their fingers in their ears, and is
> giving me that "laaadaadeedaadaa, I can't hear you" :-)
>
>
> On the contrary, you are demonstrating to me that you know very little
> about this issue (you did notice that this has been cross posted in
> alt.animals.whales, I imagine).
>
> Let me explain:
>
> There is the International Whaling Commission (IWC).
> There is the IWC Scientific Committee.
>
> One is a Commission (the politicians).
> One is a Committee (the scientists).
>
> Now check your quote.
>
> It refers to "The Commission".
>
> It also refers to a vote of 30 against 27.
>
> The IWC Scientific Committee does not provide advice by a voting
> procedure. It provides advice by consensus.
>
> The Commission is a political talkfest, where the politicians say
> whatever they like.
>
> I on the other hand gave you a quote from the IWC Scientific Committee.
> Check it again. If you are honest with yourself you will admit that I
> am right, and that you are wrong. You desperately try to say I have
> lost credibility, in the hope that just perhaps I don't know as much as
> I actually do.
>
> Again - you can choose to ignore the quote I posted from the Scientific
> Committee - you can pretend that you actually do have a clue about this
> - but I can tell you right now that you are not fooling me at all.
> Trust me. I have been following this issue for years, and discussing it
> with utter nincompoops on the Internet for yonks. I know what I am
> talking about, and I can see very well that you do not.
>
> If you want to learn something, I'm happy to discuss. I don't expect
> that you will change your mind, but at the very least you could make an
> honest attempt to understand where the whaling nations are coming from
> on this issue.
> If on the other hand you are only interested in sticking to your
> predetermined position on the matter, without an open mind, then I am
> wasting my time.
I went back to the page that you cited, and it turns out I was right. The
Science Committee page that you cited shows that the Science Committee of
International Whaling Commission does not show that it "supports the
Japanese position." Instead it says " there was some disagreement over the
necessity for the use of lethal research methods to address stock identity
questions."
That is far from a glowing endorsement of your view. >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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in article 1150013582.029130.319250.TakeThisOut@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, david @
tokyo at david.35472.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote on 6/11/06 5:13 PM:
>
> Ernest Schaal wrote:
>> The similarities is that the government is doing something that is
>> detrimental to the country rather than bow to a key political constituency.
>
> Well, I think we need to look at both sides of the coin.
>
> I think there would be quite big disadvantages for Japan were it to
> cave in to the irrational foreign pressure from a few countries urging
> it to stop whaling.
Name one disadvantage beside hurt pride and a failure of the LDP to cater to
a needed special interest group.
On the other hand, the advantages are many. One, it would free up tax money
now used to finance an industry that won't survive otherwise (an industry
that has an ever-shrinking consumer base). Two, it would free up tax money
now used to bribe other countries to side with them in this issue. Three, it
would free up their political capital for other purposes more important to
Japan (like getting a permanent UN SC seat). Four, it would help make Japan
appear more environmentally friendly.
>
>> Moral outrage doesn't always resort in the form of economic boycotts, which
>> are rarely effective. Instead, it is more political, like lack of support
>> for a Japanese permanent seat on the Security Council, or in international
>> negotiations.
>>
>> People will still buy their products, but the political results will be less
>> flexibility in negotiations in trade and other areas.
>
> I get the feeling that the anti-whaling nations will just get over it,
> shortly enough.
>
> The fact is that in countries opposed to whaling, those government have
> their own laws providing for the rational utilization of marine
> resources. I know New Zealand definitely has. I think at the highest
> level, the politicians from both sides understand that the opposition
> to whaling is one of political expediency. Anti-whaling nations have
> nothing to gain by supporting whaling, but they'll have Greenpeace and
> co at their ankles if they don't. That's all.
There is a big difference between rational utilization of marine resources
within one's territorial waters, and what Japan is doing. For one thing,
what Japan is doing isn't rational on a political, economic, or scientific
basis. For another things, there aren't that many whales within Japan's
territorial waters.
As to the belief that the opposition to whaling is one of political
expediency, there is no real basis for that remark. More accurate would be
the statement that support for whaling is definitely an act of political
expediency, an act of the LDP catering to one of its core groups in the face
of dropping poll numbers.
>
>> The impact is not so much economic as political. Their statement that
>> nothing is wrong with whaling sounds hollow,
>
> There is nothing wrong with whaling, so long as it's sustainable and as
> humane as possible.
That is an expression of belief that is not universally shared by the world.
You may believe it, but then you may believe that there was no Rape of
Nanking, or some of the other things that some of the more far-right
factions of the LDP have been saying recently.
>
>> like their statement that there is nothing in honoring dead war criminals,
>
> Do they honour dead war criminals?
You asked this question before, and I answered it in a previous message. Why
are you repeating it while ignoring my answer? That is dishonesty on your
part, and general bad form.
>
>> or that there were no massacres in Nanking.
>
> Is that what Koizumi has been saying?
You asked this question before, and I answered it in a previous message. Why
are you repeating it while ignoring my answer? That is dishonesty on your
part, and general bad form.
>
>> Overall, whale consumption is down, as Japan becomes more urbanized and more
>> addicted to McDonalds. It simply isn't the cool thing to do.
>
> whale consumption would be down, because supply is limited.
>
> I'd not be doing anything to encourage Japanese people to eat more
> McDonalds if I were the govt.
You never did answer my question before, when you made the identical claim.
What makes you think that oily whale meat is better for you than a McDonalds
hamburger?
>
>>> Anyway, the ICR is a research outfit, but they need to sell the whale
>>> meat off somehow, so this new geishoku labo business will fill the role
>>> of finding new markets and selling off the meat.
>>
>> While you call it a research outfit, with selling of whale meat as a
>> byproduct of that activity, the rest of the world isn't buying that.
>
> Who is the "rest of the world"?
Those countries in the world that Japan hasn't bribed to support their
position (and probably the citizens of some of the countries Japan has
bribed).
>
> I'd say the people who think that are the people who actually know very
> very little about it.
You really haven't shown anything to support your position that scientists
support your position. According, to the Science Review, there is
disagreement on this matter.
>
>> Even it
>> it were true, which I doubt, public conception is that it is the research is
>> an excuse for commercial activities.
>
> That I can accept. That is the public conception in the anti-whaling
> nations.
>
> I don't accept that that is reality, because I've actually read the
> research, I've read what other scientists have said about it (credible
> ones not associated with anti-whaling organizations, I mean).
In other words, if the research doesn't have your slant, it isn't valid?
Interesting.
> This is a hard thing to change. The average joe bloggs of the general
> public is never going to be a marine mammal biologist to be able to
> follow the science, or even be stimulated enough to read it carefully.
Sorry, but you really haven't shown any indication that science supports
your position. Instead, you are acting like the tobacco industry leaders did
a while back in dismissing research showing a link between tobacco and
cancer.
>
>> It is sort of like saying that the tobacco industry is merely a research
>> industry, studying the effect of tobacco on health, and the cigarette sales
>> are merely a byproduct of that activity.
>
> Well, that's the reality at the moment in Japan because of the
> commercial whaling moratorium. It's not a voluntary situation.
No, it is a holding action until the moratorium can be lifted (which it
probably won't
>
> For the record, the commercial catch of southern hemisphere minke
> whales a few years prior to the moratorium being introduced was about
> 10 times the amount that the ICR is taking today.
I agree than less whaling is done now than before the moratorium, no thanks
to Japan who is howling about traditional eating habits, eating habits that
aren't being adopted by the younger generations.
>
>> Again, what you say might be true, but no one is going to believe it, any
>> more than they believe the tobacco industry.
>
> Right.
>
> But should we let ignorance determine national positions on matters of
> international importance?
>
> I'd be loath to see that myself.
You assume that it is ignorance, and yet you really have completely failed
to show that "Science" supports your position. In another posting, you gave
a link to the page of the Science Committee of the IWC, but that page
reveals no consensus that lethal research methods have to be used to address
stock identity questions.
>
>> The result of that is a culture of skepticism about the Japanese government
>> that will probably hurt Japan in the long run.
>
> It's nothing new.
> If anything, I think the anti-whaling culture is fading.
If you think that, do you believe that the horse and buggy are going to make
a big comeback as the automobile culture fades?
>
>>> The NGO's have a habit of reporting the size of the "stock pile" when
>>> the stock pile is at it's peak (after the whaling ships return to port
>>> and make the meat available). Another amusing criticism recently was
>>> that whale meat is being turned into pet food, yet on examination of
>>> the facts, I found that the ingredients were the small intestines of
>>> the whales and other parts that humans don't eat :-) The anti-whaling
>>> NGOs are very very creative in their reporting, I have found :-)
>>
>> The NGOs are a lot better at public relations than the Japanese government
>> is,
>
> Agreed.
>
> They have a simpler message to sell though.
>
> "Don't kill whales". Throw in a pciture of a whale breaching.
>
> Any old excuse will then do.
Especially if the excuse is a valid one.
> Japan on the other hand is trying to argue for rational, science based
> management of whale stocks.
No, they are trying to argue for the continuation of whale hunting in
support of their "culinary traditions." There is no consensus that lethal
research methods are needed to study the whales.
>
> Not as sexy, and not half as easy for your average joe to understand
> and be comfortable with.
The crux of the matter is that the LDP and one of its core support groups
are arguing two things. They are arguing that killing the whales are needed
for "research" and they are arguing that it is unfair to prevent them from
continuing in their culinary traditions. The two arguments don't really
support each other.
The argument that killing the whales are needed for "research" seems to have
no more scientific basis than previous arguments for banning the import of
foreign skis because Japanese snow is "different" from other countries.
The argument about culinary traditions is weakened by the fact that the
current generation does like the taste of whale meat. Have you ever tasted
it? It is oily.
>> The current whaling scandal hurts Japan, in part because no one believes
>> them anymore.
>
> It's not true that no one believes them, and in saying that I'm not
> refering to myself.
Okay, I will buy the fact that some, like yourself, actually believe them,
sort of like some still believe the world is flat. >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:26 am
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Rather than continue this discussion in detail, I will focus on one point
there you have claimed something that is clearly inaccurate.
in article 1150073995.306190.136480 DeleteThis @f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, david @
tokyo at david.35472 DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote on 6/12/06 9:59 AM:
>
> Ernest Schaal wrote:
>
[SNIP]
>
>> The Science Committee page that you cited shows that the Science Committee of
>> International Whaling Commission does not show that it "supports the Japanese
>> position."
>
> Well, whatever, the fact is that the SC endorsed Japan's JARPA
> programme. It's right there, available for you to read, and accept, if
> your mind is flexible enough.
Here is what the SC actually reported about the JARPA programme.
"The proposed catches for the full programme are: 850 (with 10% allowance)
Antarctic minke whales, 50 humpback whales (not to begin for two years) and
50 fin whales (10 in the first two years). There was considerable
disagreement over the value of this research both within the Scientific
Committee and the Commission. A Resolution was passed (30 votes to 27 votes
with 1 abstention) by the Commission that strongly urges the Government of
Japan to withdraw its JARPA II proposal or to revise it so that any
information needed to meet the stated objectives of the proposal is obtained
using non-lethal means. Japan withdrew a proposed resolution in favour of
the research programmes.
As in previous years, THERE WAS SEVERE DISAGREEMENT WITHIN THE COMMITTEE
REGARDING ADVICE THAT SHOULD BE PROVIDED ON A NUMBER OF ISSUES, including:
the relevance of the proposed research to management, appropriate sample
sizes and applicability of alternate (non-lethal) research methods.
The Committee continued preparations for a full review of the JARPA
programme when the complete set of results is available following the
completion of the 16-year programme in 2006."
(Emphasis added in second paragraph)
Clearly, you are reading into the page support for your position that simply
does not exist. "Severe disagreement within the Committee" does not equal
"Support." >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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Since: Jun 10, 2006 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares to [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I am going to make one last comment to both Floyd L. Davidson and David,
since your claims are very similar.
Whether or not the fact that some scientists support your position, it is
clear that some scientists do not. It is not sufficient to reject any
scientist disagreeing with you simply they disagree with you, nor is it
sufficient to give credence to other scientists merely because they support
your position.
The following facts remain, whether you like them or not:
1. Continuing in attempts to remove the moratorium on whaling does Japan no
favors in the area of world public opinion.
2. Scientific opinion does not support the necessity of lethal "testing" of
whales. Instead scientific opinion is divided on this issue.
3. There are questions about the health hazards of eating whale meat.
4. The Japanese populace has voted with their pocket book on this issue by
moving on to other food in their diet. >> Stay informed about: Japan Declares Bloody War on - and Sea Shepherd Prepares t.. |
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