Some good points made and also some really out of touch points made by
people who should really know better.
A: There is NO scientific, peer reviewed data that "proves" the UK RDs
are reaching Spain. All we have is serious misinformation spread by
the CONservation hooligans, and people gullible enough to believe that
at face value.
B: The RDs are NOT the cause of WHDs decline in Spain, even the person
who identified the WHDs were in trouble says so quite clearly, yet the
CONservation hooligans blunder on.
An short extract
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/campaign/wildlife/aliens.htm
Special report: February 2001
SCAPEGOATING THE ALIENS
A special report by Animal Aid director Andrew Tyler.
Ruddy Ducks
Bird-watchers and experts within the field have made some enlightening
comments in the media recently pointing to the futility and false
scientific premise of the ruddy duck extermination programme.
Here, for instance, are extracts from two statements by the
conservationists who first alerted the Spanish authorities to the
decline of the white-headed duck in Spain:
"For the last 28 years, I have studied birds and conservation in Spain
and I was the first to respond with action in the field to protect
White-Headed Ducks... Is the Ruddy guilty - or likely to become guilty
- of hybridisation on a scale which will endanger the population of
White-headed? I do not know of evidence which can lead to such a
guilty verdict. I know of only one case of hybridisation when a female
Ruddy was misidentified by Spanish authorities and left to the mercy
of a group of drake White Headeds after her male Ruddy companion had
been shot. What evidence is there that the few Ruddies seen are from
the feral UK population? Neighbouring France, with many Ruddy Ducks in
waterfowl collections, is a much more likely source."
Tom Gullick, Castilla-la-Mancha, in Bird Watching, April 1999
"With Tom Gullick, a well-known ornithologist living in Spain, I
carried out a survey of the lakes in southern Spain in the Seventies.
We alerted the Spanish authorities to the precarious position of their
white-headed ducks, then numbering 20 to 30 birds... Some experts,
including the late Ramon Coronado, conservador of the National Park of
Donana, and Mike Lubbock, a world respected aviculturist, believe that
the Spanish race of the white-headed duck is only a sub-species. They
are not only a darker bird in plumage but are often to be found in
Spain with black heads, something we never see in the birds we have in
captivity here. It may well be worth investigating in these days of
DNA whether the Spanish ducks are an entirely pure breed. They may be
the result of earlier hybridisation with the African Maccoa duck,
another species of Stifftail."
W.M. Makins, Director, Pensthorpe Waterfowl Trust, in The Times Feb 6,
1999
The Ruddy Duck cull is, inevitably, tied up with international
politics and the British government's keenness to be seen to be 'doing
something' for the environment. To quote British Birds, (92:222-224),
'when faced with a long list of biodiversity actions, many of which
are difficult, intangible, expensive and not necessarily in the
short-term interests of the economy, politicians and environmental
agencies will always tend to jump on easy targets'.
During the Department of the Environment-funded trials in 1993 and1994
shooting with shotguns and rifles, trapping and egg destruction were
all tried. The detailed report ultimately recommended shooting the
ducks on the basis of cost rather than effectiveness. It judged that
shooting was less effective than other methods and certainly inhumane.
It also noted that shooting caused more disturbance to other birds
than did visiting nests to trap ducks or oil eggs (dipping them in
paraffin), this latter method being 100% effective.
Animal Aid believes there is no moral or scientific case for
'controlling' ruddy ducks. We might reasonably have expected, however,
that the 'bird protection' groups advising government in the initial
trial period, would have insisted on the most humane method of control
- namely oiling eggs. This they failed to do.
And so the shooting goes on. Given that ruddy ducks are found in mixed
flocks of wildfowl, it is impossible to imagine how they could be shot
without also killing or injuring other species.
One final twist to this bitterly ironic saga: Some experts maintain
that since North American ruddy ducks were introduced to the UK in the
1950s, they have developed differences in DNA from their ancestors. If
this is the case, it makes them one of Europe's rarest ducks and
therefore, a conservation priority!
-------------------------------------------------------
BIRDFORUM Thread: Ruddy Duck Cull, Right or Wrong?
Quote: Like I said, we can all make a case or any particular position
in a debate but we have to be careful in deciding why we are doing
so.]
Not really, you have to be careful if you are making a case in favour
of shooting thousands of birds at internationally important wetland
sites, costing millions of pounds of taxpayers money - if you`re
making the case of maintaining the status quo i would have thought the
flimsiest of pretexts was acceptable.
Quote: If it is because there is a moral objection to any kind of
culling then OK, but it has to be accepted that culling goes on anyway
If the aim is to reduce the Ruddy Duck population below a sustainable
level then thats not a cull - thats extermination, look it up in a
dictionary. A cull is usually carried out to maintain a healthy and
sustainable population of a particular species and is carried out by
the controlling of old, injured, ill or emaciated individuals.
Quote: If it is just for the sake of leaving an extra tick on the
British list then that isn't good enough for the sake of conservation
But leaving the Spanish an extra tick is? The White-headed Duck is
increasing in a global sense. The Ruddy Duck simply isn`t a British
conservation issue full stop - why is the RSPB wasting time and money
(provided by members and donors such as myself) on this issue - if the
Spanish feel so strongly about it they can campaign for my support
themselves or lobby the British goverment - can`t the RSPB go away and
worry about some UK issues - just remind me exactly what the RSPB is
doing for Golden Orioles, Savi`s Warblers & Marsh Warblers at the
moment.
__________________
Jason Blackwell
-----------------------------------------------------------
BirdForum > ALL THINGS BIRDING > Ethics Of Birding
Ruddy Duck Cull, Right or Wrong?
This thread has been started to continue the discussion on the Ruddy
Duck cull which follows on from the "Sparrowhawk" thread under the
"Birds of Prey" topic.
I can`t believe that Wednesday is beginning in the same way as
Tuesday: Having to come onto this forum to argue against the culling
of one species for the (perceived) benefit of another….Yesterday it
was Sparrowhawks and passerines today it is Ruddy Ducks and
White-headed Ducks.
I am utterly opposed to the Ruddy Duck cull on every level possible.
Quite what it is supposed to achieve is a complete blank to me.
__________________
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 09:32 #2
satrow
Now appearing as Andrew Rowlands
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Gwent
Posts: 666 "As you probably Know the Ruddy Duck was introduced here
in the 1940`s and has not caused any problem to date.
The call for a cull actually came from Spain where they stated their
concerns of the reduced numbers of White-headed Ducks and the hybrid
problems being caused by the Ruddy duck.
The problem could very easilly be resolved without any UK cull if the
Spanish stopped slaughtering them along with millions of other birds,
the mass killing of birds is not only linked with Cyprus and Malta
it`s a bit nearer home aswell.
Fatal Flight a very good book that although not totally factual gives
a very bleak picture and Kestrel head keyrings are fashionable.
A good friend Max Furrugia Chaiman IAR Malta works tirelessly and
under threat to stop this slaughter.
So I see no need to cull for no reason.
Suricate"
1, we don't KNOW that they haven't caused any problem because no one
has looked for any.
2, the Spanish are trying to curb this problem. They have had success
in increasing the White-headed Duck population, and reducing the
shooting of raptors.
Malta and Cyprus are irrelevant to the threat to the Iberian
White-headed Duck.
Andy.
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 09:49 #3
Gerry Hooper
Certified User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: devon
Posts: 367 I don't understand why we should cull all the Ruddy Ducks
over here in an attempt to save the White headed Duck over there.
I don't even think it's possible without spending lots of time and
money, Ruddy Ducks are spread widely now and can be very secretive.
Why isn't the cull limited to Ruddy Ducks in White Headed breeding
areas??
They seem to shoot everything else over on the Continent why not give
them a legitimate target.
I feel the resourses wasted on this cull would be better spent
stopping the slaughter of migrants in the Med.
__________________
Gerry
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 09:59 #4
Ian Peters
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 215 You may be interested to know that DEFRA is also proposing
the cull for other reasons that are potentially even more worrying.
The ruddy duck is an aggressive breeding bird in the UK and they tend
to take over in many places. At the moment, ruddy ducks are not in
contact with any of our more sensitive species but it should be noted
that they have already reached Scotland. They have the same nesting
requirements as garganey (<150 breeding pairs in eastern England),
Slavonian grebes and black-necked grebes (both <100 breeding pairs).
It would be unlikely for ruddies to totally eliminate breeding for
these species but they could out-compete for nest sites and reduce
tihe breeding population to a crititcally low level. Note that I used
the word "could" and you may ask whether speculation is sufficient
justification for this kind of action but what is conservation anyway
if it is not about speculation and planning for the future. Had
ruddies been threatened in their native areas then chances are that
there would have been no justification for a cull. Similarly, if there
was a chance that ruddies could have arrived in Europe naturally (as
with Canada geese, despite it being a different race from the
escapees) then there would ahve been no biological justification.
I have no objection or criticism to people opposing culls on moral
grounds (although you should also be speaking to your local council
about their Canada goose policy ) but we have to be careful about
arguing against action like this on non-biological grounds. As bird
watchers, we cannot claim a special dispensation when most of us would
have absolutely no objection to culling mink and/or grey squirrels.
Defending ruddies because they are a valid British tick is not on and
I would hope that no one here is objecting for that reason.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 215 [QUOTE=satrow]2, the Spanish are trying to curb this
problem. They have had success in increasing the White-headed Duck
population, and reducing the shooting of raptors.
QUOTE]
....and of course it is difficult for the Spaniards to curb the problem
on their territory if we are simply producing more ruddies.
Incidentally, a common misconception is that the ruddies are not known
to have come from UK sources. This is untrue, genetic testing of
continental ruddies has shown that nearly all come from UK sources.
It is not a trivial point that conservation is an international
concern and we produce 'their' ruddies while they shoot 'our'
thrushes. The importance is to get a good understanding between
conservation workers in each country. Remember, many European
countries have nothing like the level of conservation interest or
organisations as we have here in the UK.
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 10:10 #6
Michael Frankis
conehead
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Newcastle, Northumberland, European Union
Posts: 6,510 Out of curiosity . . .
What'll happen if, during the cull, they (a) shoot one or (b)
live-trap one, with an American ring on it?
Michael
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 10:17 #7
Michael Frankis
conehead
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Newcastle, Northumberland, European Union
Posts: 6,510 Originally Posted by Ian Peters...and of course it is
difficult for the Spaniards to curb the problem on their territory if
we are simply producing more ruddies. Incidentally, a common
misconception is that the ruddies are not known to have come from UK
sources. This is untrue, genetic testing of continental ruddies has
shown that nearly all come from UK sources.
It doesn't. All that that proves, is that Spanish duck collectors
bought their Ruddies from UK breeders, rather than direct from
America.
I still find it very strange that (as of some time ago), 200 Ruddies
had been shot in Spain, when there were still less than 10 records of
the species in France. The only way I can explain that, is if there
was a separate escape of captive Ruddies in Spain. That point has
never been properly addressed in the debate.
Michael
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 10:27 #8
Jane Turner
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hoylake, Merseyside
Posts: 3,617 I have strong views on both sides of this fence....
perhaps I'm schizophrenic
1. As Michael point out.. what would we do if the Ruddies were self
introduced natural. If say Collared Doves were hybridising with
Turtles would we be culling?
2. How can you possibly get all the Ruddies without disturbing other
species...without accidentally culling White-heads etc...
3. What if European Ruddies are now a distinct subspecies? Suddenly
they are the rarest Stifftail taxa!
4. It is far from certain what will happen in the long term wrt the
two species.
On the other hand it would be criminal to allow a species to become
extinct if it is possible to prevent it
If I thought it was possible to remove Ruddy Ducks without doing any
other harm I think I'd probably support it. But I don't believe that
is possible on either count. So this is what I would do. Instead of
trying to make stop Ruddies meeting WHD, turn the problem around and
stop WHD meeting Ruddies. That would mean a captive breeding programme
of WHD to ensure the species long term future....like NeNe, Pere
David's Deer etc etc Then let the Ruddies invade and see what happens
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 10:34 #9
Ian Peters
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 215 Originally Posted by Michael FrankisIt doesn't. All that
that proves, is that Spanish duck collectors bought their Ruddies from
UK breeders, rather than direct from America.
I still find it very strange that (as of some time ago), 200 Ruddies
had been shot in Spain, when there were still less than 10 records of
the species in France. The only way I can explain that, is if there
was a separate escape of captive Ruddies in Spain. That point has
never been properly addressed in the debate.
Michael
Why UK breeders and not say German breeders? I don't think this proves
anything of the sort and is merely speculation about a potential
source.
I don't understand why you think that the lack of French records is a
mystery given what we know about migration trends. Migrating birds
rarely go directly north-south but NW-SE or NE-SW depending on their
natural instincts. British ospreys (mostly) initially head to wards
the SW to make the Gibraltar crossing of the Mediterranean. Does it
not make sense that ruddies instinctively head in this direction too,
as they would do when heading for Central America. Now I am happy to
disclaim this because this is also speculation to but it goes to show
that anyone can make a case about anything these days. Like I said, I
cannot criticise people for opposing cuulls on moral grounds but would
you feel the same way about mink?
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 10:36 #10
Andrew
The Devonian!
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Devon
Posts: 4,446 What are other European countries doing about their
Ruddies, are we acting alone? If so then, based on the authourities'
claims Ruddies are travelling to Spain, it is all pointless really.
__________________
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 10:45 #11
Steve G
RACING RAPTOR
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: FIFE, SCOTLAND
Posts: 885 Originally Posted by Michael FrankisIt doesn't. All that
that proves, is that Spanish duck collectors bought their Ruddies from
UK breeders, rather than direct from America.
I still find it very strange that (as of some time ago), 200 Ruddies
had been shot in Spain, when there were still less than 10 records of
the species in France. The only way I can explain that, is if there
was a separate escape of captive Ruddies in Spain. That point has
never been properly addressed in the debate.
Michael
Michael the keeping of ornamental wildfowl in Spain is exceedingly
unusual. There can be few doubts about the provenance of Spanish Ruddy
duck records which are numerically far greater than eg Falcated Teal
or American Wigeon records which would presumably also be kept by
these "numerous" Spanish aviculturists. Having said that I am still
ambivalent about the cull. Certainly there is precedent for extinction
by hybridisation -eg. S. American grebes (was it the Atitlan grebe?).I
would accept that at present the numbers of Ruddy duck hitting Iberia
are still small & on the face of it local Spanish culling would seem
the answer. However up here in Central Scotland Ruddy Duck numbers are
rocketting. I have seen 10-12 together on "The Flood" at Vane farm
RSPB so the mind boggles as to how many are actually on Loch Leven. In
nearby Lochgelly we have had counts of 40+, this despite the fact they
can be a secretive skulking species. I fear the local populations here
are rising exponentially -though that fear is anecdotal rather than
fact. Sadly if we wait until the true facts emerge it might then be
impossible to cull the numbers involved. It is at the end of the day
an "Illegal Alien" & whilst I accept that much of the argument for the
cull is speculative I feel the stakes are too high & caution dictates
an unpalatable solution.
Steve G
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 10:53 #12
Ian Peters
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 215 "1. As Michael point out.. what would we do if the Ruddies
were self introduced natural. If say Collared Doves were hybridising
with Turtles would we be culling?"
No, there would be absolutely no justification to propose a cull as
mitigation against natural colonisation. Harsh as it seems, turtle
doves would have to take their chances but of course, the two species
are already in contact (naturally) and they do not interbreed.
"2. How can you possibly get all the Ruddies without disturbing other
species...without accidentally culling White-heads etc..."
Not easy but we have to try (see also Point no' 4).
"3. What if European Ruddies are now a distinct subspecies? Suddenly
they are the rarest Stifftail taxa!"
Apart form the fact that they have not been separated to form a
subspecies yet, there would still be no argument because the species
is not threatened in North America. Consider the naturalised Mandarin
population in comparison.
"4. It is far from certain what will happen in the long term wrt the
two species.
On the other hand it would be criminal to allow a species to become
extinct if it is possible to prevent it"
"If I thought it was possible to remove Ruddy Ducks without doing any
other harm I think I'd probably support it. But I don't believe that
is possible on either count. So this is what I would do. Instead of
trying to make stop Ruddies meeting WHD, turn the problem around and
stop WHD meeting Ruddies. That would mean a captive breeding programme
of WHD to ensure the species long term future....like NeNe, Pere
David's Deer etc etc Then let the Ruddies invade and see what
happens."
All this is in place but for the time being, culling has to be an
option before ruddies spread beyond control. Remember, it will be too
late at some point (it is debatable whether that point has already
passed as with grey squirrels) and if we let things go then it
certainly will be. Also, this is not just about WHD it is about an
aggressively breeding invader that could oust UK breeding species.
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 11:07 #13
Michael Frankis
conehead
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Newcastle, Northumberland, European Union
Posts: 6,510 A quick look at the US map of Ruddies shows that their
predominant natural trend would be to migrate southeast: breeding
mainly Colorado up to Alberta, wintering along the Atlantic & Gulf
coasts Maryland round to Texas. Only the western populations (interior
British Columbia to Calif) migrate west to the Pacific coast, or south
to Mexico. But there isn't (as far as I'm aware) any tendency for
waterfowl to have a genetically programmed migratory direction, it is
learned by following their parents.
Interestingly, Ruddy Duck has virtually the same breeding and
wintering distribution as Lesser Scaup, Redhead and Canvasback
Of the scarcity of collectors in Spain - it only needs one. And most
of the time, most duck breeders don't let their charges escape*. But
Ruddy Duck is particularly good at escaping - very hard to round up
the ducklings for pinioning.
* Northumberland has a healthy, expanding population of feral Mandarin
Ducks - all derived from ONE late brood, out of many broods of this
and many other species, which escaped one breeder's attention. Chance
events like this are significant, when there are opportunistic species
able to exploit it.
Michael
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 11:21 #14
Steve G
RACING RAPTOR
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: FIFE, SCOTLAND
Posts: 885 In Spain a lot of effort has been put into conserving WHD
-particularly in Andalucia. Many other species have reaped benefit
from this effort as habitat conservation has underpinned the work
done. I fear that downgrading the war to save WHD in the wild by
concentrating on captive breeding (as with Hawaian goose,etc) &
ignoring the Ruddy duck issue will be to the detriment of other
species as well as WHD. WHD is enjoying cult status as a flagship
species in Spain & thats no bad thing at present.
Steve G
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 11:23 #15
Joern Lehmhus
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 760 As far as I understand no other european country has a
ruddy duck population as GB has, therefore in continental Europe not
much is done.
To me this is a rather difficult ethical question because I think we
wouldn´t have a ruddy duck population at all in Europe if there hadn´t
been this "Slimbridge accident", as one might call it (Correct me if I
am wrong). If ther had only been the odd one or two Ruddy ducks coming
from America and reaching Europe, entering into the gene pool of white
headed duck, this would have been no concern to anybody.
If we go and say lets put down them, because they do not belong here;
what do we do with Species like Canada goose, Ringnecked parakeet,
Mandarin, Raccoon, Raccoon dog, Sika deer, Bennets Kangaroo and so on?
Fortunately Europe is in a comparatively lucky situation (other areas
of the world are not) , as studies (if existing) on such foreigners in
Europe show that though initial damage or regional damage may be high,
they did not pose a real threat to European species up to now and
removal through culling would be cost and time intensive (apart from
being not a nice thing in general). Nevertheless these species may
pose threats to European species in the future, therefore my opinion
is that such newcomers should be closely watched, so that we could act
if we can see real problems coming ahead.
The ruddy duck problem is a somewhat more difficult problem though, as
a species here seems to be under threat to disappear through
hybridisation with another species that is common and not native.
Well, new genes entering the population of one species by
hybridisation with another closely related species does happen
frequently and is not in general a bad thing. But if these events are
common and the rarer species is outnumbered by the common, not
globally threatened and introduced one, this would in the end probably
result in the loss of the rare species and perhaps in a new subspecies
of the common species (or not even that, if the rare species is really
rare). Therefore in this case I am tending to opt for a reduction of
the population of the common introduced species (though I am not happy
with that, as it means culling in the end).
So, now i have stuck my head out
Joern
By the way, a slightly similar thing is going on in eastern europe now
.. The bigger and more aggressive American Mink (Mustela vison) is
threatening the last populations of the rare Eurasian Mink (Mustela
lutreola), though in this case hybrids normally seem to be infertile (
cant add to the gene pool), but in direct competition the American
species wins. Eurasian Mink was once distributed through most of
Europe, but became rare through hunting for its valuable fur and
man-made habitat changes.
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 11:28 #16
pduxon
Quacked up Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 2,481 Ian
what on earth were the WWT doing bringing the Ruddy here in the first
place? Is this a case with man interfering to stop a problem it caused
in the first place and not really knowing if it will create another
problem.
Sorry I'm not convinced. Surely the decline of the White Head has more
to do with man than it has to do with the Ruddy.
__________________
Pete
quack quack quack quack
pduxon
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 11:30 #17
Jane Turner
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hoylake, Merseyside
Posts: 3,617 Originally Posted by Steve GIn Spain a lot of effort has
been put into conserving WHD -particularly in Andalucia. Many other
species have reaped benefit from this effort as habitat conservation
has underpinned the work done. I fear that downgrading the war to save
WHD in the wild by concentrating on captive breeding (as with Hawaian
goose,etc) & ignoring the Ruddy duck issue will be to the detriment of
other species as well as WHD. WHD is enjoying cult status as a
flagship species in Spain & thats no bad thing at present.
As I said I can argue long and hard with myself on this one! I agree
wholeheartedly about the habitat conservation btw....
The thing that worries me is the practicality of a RD cull, far more
than the ethics of the cull itself. A species so good at hiding water
margins will be impossible to cull without huge amount of disturbance
to other species. Give me a button to push that removes all Ruddies
from Europe and does no habitat damage, causes zero disturbance to
other species and yes...I'd push it. I'd miss RD of course, but this
isn't an occasion to be sentimental. The trouble is that button
doesn't exist.
Jane Turner
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 11:31 #18
Michael Frankis
conehead
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Newcastle, Northumberland, European Union
Posts: 6,510 Hi Joern,
Denmark certainly has a Ruddy Duck cull on (not that they have many
there!) and I'm pretty sure Belgium and France do too.
For other species - Sika Deer are proving a big threat to (native) Red
Deer in Britain, through hybridisation (and these hybrids are
fertile). But calls for a cull have not been acted on with them.
Michael
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 11:59 #19
Joern Lehmhus
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 760 Hi Michael,
probably you are right with Denmark, Belgium and France; I just didn´t
hear of it.
That problem with Sika and Red Deer does also occur on the continent,
but the situation is not fully clear, as there are areas where both
species live together without hybridisation and other areas where it
is said hybridisation occurs frequently.
The interesting thing is that once Sika or a sika-like deer occurred
in Europe (before or between ice ages I think), beside Red deer
(Cervus elaphus) and Cervus dama (or Dama dama).
I do not know if there has been a study on the subject of
hybridization of these species in middle Europe (If you know one , I
would like to read it), but one idea I get from this is that maybe
pronounced trophy hunting in some areas may affect the social
structure of these species? just speculating.
Jörn
Joern Lehmhus
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 12:32 #20
Jasonbirder
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 726 Let me outline the reasons I disagree with the Cull
1. The Spanish Population of White-headed Ducks is a small proportion
of the world population (not that it isn`t worth conserving) but talk
of extinction is sheer hyperbole – 19,000 + pairs in Siberia &
Kazakhstan, population if anything increasing.
2. The UK is far from the only source of Ruddy Ducks, genetic testing
can in no-way point to UK origin as most European Ruddies will derive
from UK bred/escaped birds.
3. For all the talk of Ruddies as an aggressive breeder it is a
widespread and locally abundant across the Midlands and there has been
no obvious impact on the population of scarce breeders such as
Black-necked Grebes or Garganey. I know of sites here where Ruddy
Ducks are common that have been taken up by Black-headed Grebes as new
breeding sites. Talk about them damaging native populations is sheer
scaremongering.
4. The whole issue of extinction by hybridisation is a bit of a red
herring anyway – if there is any compartmentalisation at all between
the species then inter-breeding will only occur in isolated
circumstances – such as when there are a very few Ruddy Ducks and a
plentiful supply of White-headed Ducks….its not a long term issue is
it? If Ruddy Ducks increase in Spain then there will be less
inter-breeding with White-headed Ducks, if Ruddy Ducks decrease in
Spain then there won`t be a problem with inter-breeding with
White-headed Ducks. The current situation is analogous to the one that
exists with isolated Black Ducks and Pied-billed Grebes interbreeding
with Mallards and Little Grebes in south-west England – only occurring
because of the complete absence of suitable mates.
5. Shooting Ruddy Ducks at UK sites is what I can only describe as the
nuclear option, just think of the disturbance and distress that will
be caused by widespread shooting at some of our most important inland
waterbird sites. What effect would high volumes of shooting have at
sites such Rutland Water, Pitsford Reservoir or Blythfield Reservoir?
If done in the summer it would the disturbance to native breeding
birds would be horrific, if done in the winter just think of the
effect it would have on the internationally important numbers of
wintering wildfowl….Bear in mind this wouldn`t have to be done only
once, because of Ruddy Ducks dispersive and elusive breeding habits it
would need to be done again and again and again….What guarantee is
there that only Ruddy Ducks would be shot – its not that difficult to
mistake Ruddy Ducks and Red-head Smew and Black-necked Grebes is it in
winter….particularly for a non-birder without binoculars!
6. Only a purely subjective basis the Ruddy Duck is an extremely
attractive and well loved bird itself – it wasn`t chosen by the West
Midlands Bird Club as its mascot for nothing was it, it takes a
massive leap of imagination for it to be described as vermin doesn`t
it?
7. In a wider sense what affect will it have on conservation in
general/public perception if we are seen to blasting away at birds on
our nature reserves – how will it affect donations/memberships, how
can we hope to attract new people and spark their interest if we are
seen to be behaving in this way?
8. Yes, the Ruddy Duck is a new addition to our avifauna but if we
start trying to exterminate it on those grounds where do we stop? Lets
train our sights on Red-crested Pochards, Mandarins, Golden Pheasants,
Lady Amhersts Pheasants, Little Owls etc etc….Bird populations are
naturally dynamic we can`t suddenly decide to “Fossilise” the British
list as it now stands and blast away at any birds that turn up on our
shores in future can we?
Talk about sledgehammer to crack a nut, leave Ruddy Ducks alone and
for gods-sake start worrying about some proper issues – I can think of
dozens more that are much more concerning!
The scary thing here is that rather than protecting birds from
farmers, gamekeepers, oil companies etc etc we`re wasting time and
effort trying to protect birds from the very bodies which should stand
for their protection – bird charities and ornithological
organisations!
__________________
Jason Blackwell
Jasonbirder
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 12:39 #21
esmondb
Special Circumstances
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SW London
Posts: 183 Originally Posted by Jane TurnerAs I said I can argue long
and hard with myself on this one! I agree wholeheartedly about the
habitat conservation btw....
The thing that worries me is the practicality of a RD cull, far more
than the ethics of the cull itself. A species so good at hiding water
margins will be impossible to cull without huge amount of disturbance
to other species. Give me a button to push that removes all Ruddies
from Europe and does no habitat damage, causes zero disturbance to
other species and yes...I'd push it. I'd miss RD of course, but this
isn't an occasion to be sentimental. The trouble is that button
doesn't exist.
Ruddies like to congregate in large numbers at wintering sites. It is
at these sites that you can carry out culling with little collateral
damage and no habitat damage.
The DEFRA trials conclude that shooting is the most effective method
of control with 0.3% of the total cull comprising non-target species.
With trapping on the other hand 47% of deaths were non-target, albeit
from a smaller sample.
__________________
regards
Esmond....B
esmondb
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 12:50 #22
Jasonbirder
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 726 Lets just kill off this debate in its tracks, during the
controlled trials conducted by DEFRA in the early 90`s permission to
control was refused at slightly less than 50% of sites including a
number of the large reservoirs which make up the most important
wintering areas
Quote:Permission to carry out control of ruddy ducks was requested for
a total of 153 sites, with all but ten being in the Western Midlands
or on Anglesey. A total of 193 owners and site users were approached
and 58.0% of these gave permission to carry out control.
There is no reason to beleive that the figure would be any different
now and the culling would be completely and utterly pointless even
within its own mindless points of reference if that remained the same
- any culling under thos circumstances would be merely spiteful and
serve no wider conservation purpose at all.
__________________
Jason Blackwell
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 12:52 #23
Ian Peters
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 215 Originally Posted by Michael FrankisFor other species -
Sika Deer are proving a big threat to (native) Red Deer in Britain,
through hybridisation (and these hybrids are fertile). But calls for a
cull have not been acted on with them.
Michael
I have to disagree with you on this Michael, there is a cull underway
(as far as I am aware) on sika deer but this is receiving virtually no
publicity because native red deer are habitually culled for other
reasons anyway. Like I said, we can all make a case or any particular
position in a debate but we have to be careful in deciding why we are
doing so. If it is just for the sake of leaving an extra tick on the
British list then that isn't good enough for the sake of conservation.
if it is because there is a moral objection to any kind of culling
then OK, but it has to be accepted that culling goes on anyway. In
addition, if it is a moral argument then due care should be taken in
not introducing scientific evidence that does not exist. Remember, it
is down to the conservation lobby to justify a cull and there is
insurrmountable evidence in favour. If you want to get a feel for what
I mean, stop for a moment and consider what I said about Canada geese
and mink. Worse still, how would you feel if it were suddenly possibe
to remove brown rats from the UK (again, a non-native). It is
interesting to see the British reaction to this issue given there was
nothing like the same level of objection to the black swan cull in New
Zealand.
Ian Peters
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 13:00 #24
Jasonbirder
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 726 Quote:The DEFRA trials conclude that shooting is the most
effective method of control with 0.3% of the total cull comprising
non-target species
Not so effective if you were the juvenile Long-tailed Duck that was
accidently shot!
__________________
Jason Blackwell
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SW London
Posts: 183 Originally Posted by JasonbirderThere is no reason to
beleive that the figure would be any different now and the culling
would be completely and utterly pointless even within its own mindless
points of reference if that remained the same - any culling under thos
circumstances would be merely spiteful and serve no wider conservation
purpose at all.
Is that not because it was a trial and permissions would have to be
granted voluntarily?
If it was made law would the refusals to allow access be allowed to
stand?
__________________
regards
Esmond....B
Fifebirder
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fife
Posts: 1,412 Originally Posted by Ian PetersSimilarly, if there was a
chance that ruddies could have arrived in Europe naturally (as with
Canada geese, despite it being a different race from the escapees)
then there would ahve been no biological justification. I have no
objection or criticism to people opposing culls on moral grounds
(although you should also be speaking to your local council about
their Canada goose policy ) but we have to be careful about arguing
against action like this on non-biological grounds.
Ian, I don't understand why it is biologically justified to cull a
species that hasn't arrived in an area 'naturally' (by which I assume
you mean without direct human intervention). This seems to me to be a
purely ethical decision about how much we value the 'naturalness' of a
population. Biology, as I understand it, is just a way of finding out
how living things and systems work - it is not a basis for ethical or
political judgements at all. Biologists and biological data may
contribute to ethical debates but ethical decisions are not made on
biological grounds. The debate about Ruddy Ducks is not (as it has
often been styled) science versus sentiment/ animal rights/ emotion.
It is a political and ethical debate on both sides, I think mostly
centred on British conservationists' sense of responsibility towards
their colleagues in Spain.
It should also be noted that on another current thread the idea of the
integrity of the species is being actively debated (as it is amongst
biologists). Why not here as well? The 'integrity' of Ruddy Duck and
White-headed Duck as separate species seems to be axiomatic to this
debate, even though to biologists this is surely very contestable.
__________________
Andrew
Fifebirder
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 13:15 #27
Joern Lehmhus
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 760 With what numbers of birds are we dealing here?
I really don´t know how high the populations of Ruddy duck in Europe,
especially GB, are at the moment, and what numbers white headed duck
has reached in Spain.
I agree on the point that the main problem lies in Spain though
(habitat and hunting). If we had a high population of Whiteheaded Duck
in Spain, introgression of Ruddy duck would not be worrysome, in my
eyes, and we wouldn´t need to debate this.
Joern Lehmhus
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 13:16 #28
Ian Peters
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 215 Originally Posted by JasonbirderLet me outline the reasons
I disagree with the Cull
1. The Spanish Population of White-headed Ducks is a small proportion
of the world population (not that it isn`t worth conserving) but talk
of extinction is sheer hyperbole – 19,000 + pairs in Siberia &
Kazakhstan, population if anything increasing.
2. The UK is far from the only source of Ruddy Ducks, genetic testing
can in no-way point to UK origin as most European Ruddies will derive
from UK bred/escaped birds.
3. For all the talk of Ruddies as an aggressive breeder it is a
widespread and locally abundant across the Midlands and there has been
no obvious impact on the population of scarce breeders such as
Black-necked Grebes or Garganey. I know of sites here where Ruddy
Ducks are common that have been taken up by Black-headed Grebes as new
breeding sites. Talk about them damaging native populations is sheer
scaremongering.
4. The whole issue of extinction by hybridisation is a bit of a red
herring anyway – if there is any compartmentalisation at all between
the species then inter-breeding will only occur in isolated
circumstances – such as when there are a very few Ruddy Ducks and a
plentiful supply of White-headed Ducks….its not a long term issue is
it? If Ruddy Ducks increase in Spain then there will be less
inter-breeding with White-headed Ducks, if Ruddy Ducks decrease in
Spain then there won`t be a problem with inter-breeding with
White-headed Ducks. The current situation is analogous to the one that
exists with isolated Black Ducks and Pied-billed Grebes interbreeding
with Mallards and Little Grebes in south-west England – only occurring
because of the complete absence of suitable mates.
5. Shooting Ruddy Ducks at UK sites is what I can only describe as the
nuclear option, just think of the disturbance and distress that will
be caused by widespread shooting at some of our most important inland
waterbird sites. What effect would high volumes of shooting have at
sites such Rutland Water, Pitsford Reservoir or Blythfield Reservoir?
If done in the summer it would the disturbance to native breeding
birds would be horrific, if done in the winter just think of the
effect it would have on the internationally important numbers of
wintering wildfowl….Bear in mind this wouldn`t have to be done only
once, because of Ruddy Ducks dispersive and elusive breeding habits it
would need to be done again and again and again….What guarantee is
there that only Ruddy Ducks would be shot – its not that difficult to
mistake Ruddy Ducks and Red-head Smew and Black-necked Grebes is it in
winter….particularly for a non-birder without binoculars!
6. Only a purely subjective basis the Ruddy Duck is an extremely
attractive and well loved bird itself – it wasn`t chosen by the West
Midlands Bird Club as its mascot for nothing was it, it takes a
massive leap of imagination for it to be described as vermin doesn`t
it?
7. In a wider sense what affect will it have on conservation in
general/public perception if we are seen to blasting away at birds on
our nature reserves – how will it affect donations/memberships, how
can we hope to attract new people and spark their interest if we are
seen to be behaving in this way?
8. Yes, the Ruddy Duck is a new addition to our avifauna but if we
start trying to exterminate it on those grounds where do we stop? Lets
train our sights on Red-crested Pochards, Mandarins, Golden Pheasants,
Lady Amhersts Pheasants, Little Owls etc etc….Bird populations are
naturally dynamic we can`t suddenly decide to “Fossilise” the British
list as it now stands and blast away at any birds that turn up on our
shores in future can we?
Talk about sledgehammer to crack a nut, leave Ruddy Ducks alone and
for gods-sake start worrying about some proper issues – I can think of
dozens more that are much more concerning!
The scary thing here is that rather than protecting birds from
farmers, gamekeepers, oil companies etc etc we`re wasting time and
effort trying to protect birds from the very bodies which should stand
for their protection – bird charities and ornithological
organisations!
1. 19,000 pairs given the area is a severely threatened species under
anyone's judegement.
2. I don't really follow your reasoning on this if the UK origin has
been established through genetic testing, how can you say that other
sources are still in the frame (notwithstanding that it is irrelevant
as a conservation argument)?
3. With respect, you passed over my point on this one. uddies are not
yet in contact with these species but would you want that on your
conscience when it came about? We have made too many conservation
mistakes around the world by wait and see tactics and it would be a
poor defence in a country that has one of the best conservation set
ups (I don't mean results though).
4. No argument on this one but we have not stabilised WHDs and as
others have said, we cannot afford to do nothing in the mean time.
However, it is NOT absence of mates but because escaped ruddies do not
recognise 'wild' behaviour. That is the reason why there are so many
anas and aythya hybrids in the UK because we cannot keep our captives
where they should be. Hybridisation within the two genera was
virtually unknown in the UK before the rising popularity of wildfowl
collections.
5. Given that the culling is supposed to be by trained and licensed
individuals, this argument is a bit of a red herring.
6. Whoa there! Surely not the aesthetics argument. In my opinion,
magpies are attractive birds but it does not stop dear little old
ladies getting passionate about wiping them off the face of the bird
table.
7. This does not really make sense either because the environment is
often heavily managed and of course, game shooting is perfectly legal
in the UK. OK, you might argue against game shooting but again with
respect, is this not a separate issue.
8. Not at all, the species you mentioned do not present conservation
problems but can someone tell me why no one is arguing the case for
mink? The threat may be different in nature but it is still a threat
from an introduced species.
I cannot agree with your closing paragraph at all, every conservation
body in the UK (and a few welfare ones too) are dealing with all or
some of these problems. Conservation does not work if we pick a
subject and deal with that and then move onto the next one. All
subjects have to be dealt with together and indeed, they are.
Ian Peters
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 13:17 #29
Jasonbirder
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 726 Quote:Like I said, we can all make a case or any
particular position in a debate but we have to be careful in deciding
why we are doing so.]
Not really, you have to be careful if you are making a case in favour
of shooting thousands of birds at internationally important wetland
sites, costing millions of pounds of taxpayers money - if you`re
making the case of maintaining the status quo i would have thought the
flimsiest of pretexts was acceptable.
Quote:If it is because there is a moral objection to any kind of
culling then OK, but it has to be accepted that culling goes on anyway
If the aim is to reduce the Ruddy Duck population below a sustainable
level then thats not a cull - thats extermination, look it up in a
dictionary. A cull is usually carried out to maintain a healthy and
sustainable population of a particular species and is carried out by
the controlling of old, injured, ill or emaciated individuals.
Quote:If it is just for the sake of leaving an extra tick on the
British list then that isn't good enough for the sake of conservation
But leaving the Spanish an extra tick is? The White-headed Duck is
increasing in a global sense. The Ruddy Duck simply isn`t a British
conservation issue full stop - why is the RSPB wasting time and money
(provided by members and donors such as myself) on this issue - if the
Spanish feel so strongly about it they can campaign for my support
themselves or lobby the British goverment - can`t the RSPB go away and
worry about some UK issues - just remind me exactly what the RSPB is
doing for Golden Orioles, Savi`s Warblers & Marsh Warblers at the
moment.
__________________
Jason Blackwell
Jasonbirder
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 13:25 #30
Ian Peters
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 215 Originally Posted by FifebirderIan, I don't understand why
it is biologically justified to cull a species that hasn't arrived in
an area 'naturally' (by which I assume you mean without direct human
intervention). This seems to me to be a purely ethical decision about
how much we value the 'naturalness' of a population. Biology, as I
understand it, is just a way of finding out how living things and
systems work - it is not a basis for ethical or political judgements
at all. Biologists and biological data may contribute to ethical
debates but ethical decisions are not made on biological grounds. The
debate about Ruddy Ducks is not (as it has often been styled) science
versus sentiment/ animal rights/ emotion. It is a political and
ethical debate on both sides, I think mostly centred on British
conservationists' sense of responsibility towards their colleagues in
Spain.
It should also be noted that on another current thread the idea of the
integrity of the species is being actively debated (as it is amongst
biologists). Why not here as well? The 'integrity' of Ruddy Duck and
White-headed Duck as separate species seems to be axiomatic to this
debate, even though to biologists this is surely very contestable.
Fair points but if we argue along these lines then we have to accept
that the cormorants (inland) that are currently raising the
temperature of anglers in the UK. Have been conclusively been proved
(S.B. Piertney et al) to be from the continental race. This begs the
question as to whether we should be looking at a major inland cull of
cormorants in the UK? The answer is "no" and Joern will probably help
to confirm why this should not be the case given that the birds are
thought to come from highly disturbed areas of southern Germany.
Continental coormorants do not interbreed with coastal cormorants BTW
but we can argue this endlessly anyway, consider how many hybrids of
pochards and tufties are around and no one would dispute that they are
a separate species.
Ian Peters
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 13:30 #31
Ian Peters
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 215 [QUOTE=Jasonbirder]
If the aim is to reduce the Ruddy Duck population below a sustainable
level then thats not a cull - thats extermination, look it up in a
dictionary. A cull is usually carried out to maintain a healthy and
sustainable population of a particular species and is carried out by
the controlling of old, injured, ill or emaciated individuals.
QUOTE]
Oh come on, this is just a case of semantics. How can it be
extermination of a species when ruddies are stable in their natural
range? I just wish people would be honest about why they oppose a
cull. You introduced the aesthetics point for instance.
Ian Peters
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 14:02 #32
Joern Lehmhus
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 760 I wouldn´t be so sure about inland and coastal cormorants
not interbreeding, if one publication says that. Others are stating
differently. On the other hand I am not thinking a general culling of
cormorant on inland waters is nessecary in any case, independent from
which race or subspecies they may ever belong to. But cormorant is
always a point of discussion among fishermen. Most opinions seem to be
exaggerated, but cormorants can in waterways highly altered by man
negatively affect populations of endangered and threatened fish
species.
So there we are again at the habitat problem. If you have enough
suitable habitat and no hunting pressure, whiteheaded duck population
will surely go up and a small ruddy duck population would be unlikely
to a much bigger whiteheaded duck population, so why cull then?
but we do not have that situation- we have a bigger population of the
introduced species, I think at least in comparison to the spanish
population of WHD; and the population of RD was founded by human
activity, not naturally (I doubt that more than single birds would
have come over the Atlantic Ocean on their own)-
Therefore , if WHD becomes extinct through hybridization, we humans
are to blame- yet another species on our "extinction account".
So I would agree with Jane that we should try to save the WHD, with
habitat protection, release of captive-bred birds and even culling RD.
But on the other hand I see that culling will not fully succeed and
may even have detrimental effects on other species- so I would try at
least to keep the ruddy duck population low (this is from a biologists
point of view, though personnally I do not feel really happy about
culling).
Generally we should really avoid releasing alien species...
Joern Lehmhus
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 14:46 #33
Steve G
RACING RAPTOR
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: FIFE, SCOTLAND
Posts: 885 I fall into the same camp as Joern. He puts over the point
well. The culling option is unpalatable & unpleasant but all the signs
are suggesting that Ruddy duck numbers are on the climb & need to be
halted.
Steve G
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 15:20 #34
Ian Peters
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 215 Originally Posted by Steve GI fall into the same camp as
Joern. He puts over the point well. The culling option is unpalatable
& unpleasant but all the signs are suggesting that Ruddy duck numbers
are on the climb & need to be halted.
I think this is as good a summary as any. Hindsight is 20:20 and I
suppose in the UK, we have had enough warmings about what happens when
species are introduced. It does not sit easily because I think we have
been complacent in thinking "it can't happen here" when we have
glanced back at New Zealand and the black swans for instance. I think
most people who are advocating the cull also agree that it is an
unfortunate situation (to say the least). At the same time (I am sure
you will agree), each person has to be clear why they strenuously
oppose the cull. It seems a bit of a contradiction (not a criticism)
to be using scientific evidence to oppose the cull when the real
objection is ethical. Once again, no one has chosen to discuss the
mink issue, which is very much the same thing.
Ian Peters
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 16:38 #35
Tim Allwood
midfield general
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: norwich
Posts: 2,199 Come on people!
birders have admirably worked out the major causes of songbird decline
what's holding you up with this?
get em shot - the reasons surely don't need to be stated again?
Go and see a group of White-headeds on a Turkish Lake and you might
change your mind.
Tim Allwood
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 17:28 #36
Fifebirder
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fife
Posts: 1,412 I think one difference between the three cases
(songbirds, ruddy ducks, mink) is that certain songbirds have declined
due mainly to habitat loss (though some would disagree), mink have
caused a great deal of harm to breeding bird populations in areas in
which they have been (inadvertantly) introduced, whereas Ruddy Ducks
might threaten the purity of the White-headed Duck populations of
Spain (but possibly not elsewhere). The Ruddy Duck - White-headed Duck
situation is largely still an anticipated problem in the future rather
than something that has happened and is continuing to happen. Okay I
know there has been the odd case of hybridisation but, like the
Pochards and Tufted Ducks that interbreed, this isn't necessarily a
threat to the population as a whole. Whilst some obviously feel that
they need to be better safe than sorry, it should be remembered that
the majority of introduced flora and fauna in the UK (not necessarily
elsewhere) actually don't do very much ecological harm at all (and
maybe even do some good). Just because something is introduced it
doesn't mean that it's wrong. I'm still not sure that Ruddy Ducks
happily interbreeding with White-headed Ducks is 'wrong' in any case.
And I've seen lots of the latter on lakes in Turkey by the way Tim!
__________________
Andrew
Fifebirder
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 17:37 #37
Steve G
RACING RAPTOR
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: FIFE, SCOTLAND
Posts: 885 Originally Posted by Fifebirder..... whereas Ruddy Ducks
might threaten the purity of the White-headed Duck populations of
Spain (but possibly not elsewhere). The Ruddy Duck - White-headed Duck
situation is largely still an anticipated problem in the future rather
than something that has happened and is continuing to happen. Okay I
know there has been the odd case of hybridisation but, like the
Pochards and Tufted Ducks that interbreed, this isn't necessarily a
threat to the population as a whole. Whilst some obviously feel that
they need to be better safe than sorry, it should be remembered that
the majority of introduced flora and fauna in the UK (not necessarily
elsewhere) actually don't do very much ecological harm at all (and
maybe even do some good). Just because something is introduced it
doesn't mean that it's wrong. I'm still not sure that Ruddy Ducks
happily interbreeding with White-headed Ducks is 'wrong' in any case.
I really hope your right. Sadly given the explosion in numbers I fear
you'll soon be able to tip-toe across Kilconquhar Loch on the backs of
Ruddy Duck!
Steve G
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 17:50 #38
Tim Allwood
midfield general
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: norwich
Posts: 2,199 The White-headed Duck is a globally endangered species
with an estimated world population of fewer than 10,000 individuals
(BirdLife International 2000). The Council of Europe White-headed Duck
Action Plan (Green & Hughes 1996) identified hybridisation with Ruddy
Duck as the most serious threat to the White-headed Duck.
The risk to the White-headed Duck from Ruddy Ducks has arisen because
the two species hybridise readily, with the Ruddy Duck possessing the
competitive edge - they are more aggressive and are less demanding in
their ecological requirements. If the expansion of the Ruddy Duck
population continues, it is likely that Ruddy Ducks will completely
absorb the White-headed Duck. Precedents exist from elsewhere in the
world to demonstrate the potential level of threat.
Okay
there were 20 ruddies in Spain in 1990
first hybrids in 91
19 hybrids by 93 by which time they were being shot
birds keep arriving in Spain form the north (30 in 1997)
Up to the end of 2000, a total of 57 hybrids, many F2 birds (and 84
pure Ruddy Ducks) have been shot in Spain. Hybrids have also occured
(4 birds) in UK too
We need to cull to stop the birds getting to Spain
I have total respect for the people at Birdlife, many of whom I know
well....they are totally dedicated and would only support measures
like this if the science was thorough.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Tim Allwood : Wednesday 4th February 2004 at 18:05.
Reason: correct pop is only 10000
Tim Allwood
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 17:55 #39
Steve G
RACING RAPTOR
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: FIFE, SCOTLAND
Posts: 885 Spoken like a true teacher!
Steve G
Wednesday 4th February 2004, 18:58 #40
Fifebirder
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fife
Posts: 1,412 I'm not disputing that Ruddys and White-headeds are
hybridising in Spain or that White-headed numbers have been declining
(well at least in Turkey and Central Asia, where the majority are and
where there aren't Ruddy Ducks as yet). The concern I have is that the
reason why the hybridisation is considered a problem is because the
Ruddy Duck is considered 'unnatural'. As Ian said earlier, the
conservationists wouldn't consider doing anything if the Ruddy Duck
wasn't 'their fault' as it were. If the Ruddy Duck had arrived under
its own steam then the conservationists would just be saying 'that's
nature and we protect nature' so we should stand by and watch.
Suddenly though, because the Ruddy Duck is seen as unnatural, the most
'natural' thing of all - breeding - comes to seem unnatural and
therefore problematic. This isn't idle philosophising (of which I'm
occasionally guilty) but I think reflects a lot of confusion that we
have over the place of human beings in nature. Are we a part of nature
or are we something that exists outside of nature and that manipulates
it to our own ends? I think the latter perspective has been the main
reason for the environmental crisis that faces the world. It is also
the perspective that makes the Ruddy Duck interbreeding with the
White-headed Duck seem wrong.
We still seem to take the view that being outside of nature has got us
into this problem but that we need to remain outside of nature in
order to make things right again. I know this is a difficult view to
change (and I still think that way myself most of the time) but I
think that we need to fundamentally re-evaluate the human place in
nature if we are to do anything to solve the ecological...(message truncated)
FAQ
Search
Profile
Private Messages
Log in
