A (Very Brief) History of Slavery

Leif Erikson wrote:
> Glorfindel wrote:

>> I have mentioned nothing about my academic credentials. You do
>> not know what they are.

> I know what they *aren't*:

No, you don't know that either.
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On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:30:50 -0700, Glorfindel <notgiven DeleteThis @all.com>
wrote:

>Doug Jones wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:08:46 -0700, Glorfindel <notgiven DeleteThis @all.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>>In general, primitive hunter/gatherer societies do not have slaves,
>>>although some nomadic societies do.
>
>> Hmm.. a study of history showed that *many* primitive hunter/gatherer
>> societies do have slaves.
>
>I disagree. Most primitive hunter/gatherer groups 1)have no use for
>slaves, and 2)don't have the resources to feed useless slaves.
>

You can disagree all you want, but the reality is that they did have
slaves. It was quite common in Native American groups, has been found
in various Amazon tribes - all within historical times, and all of
whom qualify as 'hunter-gatherers'.

>> War captives, raiding other groups, and so
>> on.
>
>Those would be the nomadic peoples I mentioned.
>

Hunter-gatherers are also nomadic.

>> <snip>
>
>>>Ownership of both humans and animals evolved along with ownership of
>>>land in the case of settled communities, and is found in the earliest
>>>civilizations of Mesopotamia and Egypt, once slaves and domesticated
>>>animals had become economic assets.
>
>> <snip>
>> Helpful hint for you - animals were being domesticated long before
>> agriculture.
>
>Yes. However, large-scale slavery did not evolve until settled
>communities based on land ownership evolved, because there was
>limited (although some) use for slaves in a nomadic herding economy.

Shifting the goalposts here.
 >> Stay informed about: A (Very Brief) History of Slavery 

Doug Jones wrote:

>>I disagree. Most primitive hunter/gatherer groups 1)have no use for
>>slaves, and 2)don't have the resources to feed useless slaves.

> You can disagree all you want, but the reality is that they did have
> slaves. It was quite common in Native American groups, has been found
> in various Amazon tribes - all within historical times, and all of
> whom qualify as 'hunter-gatherers'.

I think it's a matter of definition. There would be a few Native
American groups which might qualify, but not many. Which were
you thinking of? Which Amazon tribes?

>>> War captives, raiding other groups, and so
>>>on.

>>Those would be the nomadic peoples I mentioned.

> Hunter-gatherers are also nomadic.

Certainly.

>>><snip>

>>>>Ownership of both humans and animals evolved along with ownership of
>>>>land in the case of settled communities, and is found in the earliest
>>>>civilizations of Mesopotamia and Egypt, once slaves and domesticated
>>>>animals had become economic assets.

>>><snip>
>>>Helpful hint for you - animals were being domesticated long before
>>>agriculture.

>>Yes. However, large-scale slavery did not evolve until settled
>>communities based on land ownership evolved, because there was
>>limited (although some) use for slaves in a nomadic herding economy.

> Shifting the goalposts here.

Did you notice the word "evolved"?
 >> Stay informed about: A (Very Brief) History of Slavery 

Karen Winter, marxist liar ordinaire, lied:

> Doug Jones wrote:
>
>>> I disagree. Most primitive hunter/gatherer groups 1)have no use for
>>> slaves, and 2)don't have the resources to feed useless slaves.
>
>
>> You can disagree all you want, but the reality is that they did have
>> slaves. It was quite common in Native American groups, has been found
>> in various Amazon tribes - all within historical times, and all of
>> whom qualify as 'hunter-gatherers'.
>
>
> I think it's a matter of definition

*BULLSHIT*


>>>> War captives, raiding other groups, and so
>>>> on.
>
>
>>> Those would be the nomadic peoples I mentioned.
>
>
>> Hunter-gatherers are also nomadic.
>
>
> Certainly.
>
>>>> <snip>
>
>
>>>>> Ownership of both humans and animals evolved along with ownership of
>>>>> land in the case of settled communities, and is found in the earliest
>>>>> civilizations of Mesopotamia and Egypt, once slaves and domesticated
>>>>> animals had become economic assets.
>
>
>>>> <snip>
>>>> Helpful hint for you - animals were being domesticated long before
>>>> agriculture.
>
>
>>> Yes. However, large-scale slavery did not evolve until settled
>>> communities based on land ownership evolved, because there was
>>> limited (although some) use for slaves in a nomadic herding economy.
>
>
>> Shifting the goalposts here.
>
>
> Did you notice the word "evolved"?

He caught you red-handed, you sleazy carpet-munching bitch.
 >> Stay informed about: A (Very Brief) History of Slavery 

Leif Erikson wrote:

> marxist

What in the discussion between Doug and myself shows a Marxist
interpretation on my part?
 >> Stay informed about: A (Very Brief) History of Slavery 

Leif Erikson wrote:

> Glorfindel wrote:

>> What in the discussion between Doug and myself shows a Marxist
>> interpretation on my part?

> It is at the base of your alleged expertise in history.

No, it is not.

> You studied
> marxist (i.e., bullshit) history

Some genuinely Marxist historians have contributed to the
discipline, because they were good historians as well as
Marxists. I did indeed study Marxist interpretations of
history, and the influences of Marxism on historical
events. Anyone who has not *studied* Marxist ideas and
Marxist influences on history would not be much of a
historian, because Marxism had a major effect on 19th and 20th
century history, and continues, in modified form, to
influence historical thought.

That doesn't mean I am a Marxist, or follow a Marxist
interpretation of history. I don't.
 >> Stay informed about: A (Very Brief) History of Slavery 

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:19:25 -0700, Glorfindel <notgiven.TakeThisOut@all.com>
wrote:

>Doug Jones wrote:
>
>>>I disagree. Most primitive hunter/gatherer groups 1)have no use for
>>>slaves, and 2)don't have the resources to feed useless slaves.
>
>> You can disagree all you want, but the reality is that they did have
>> slaves. It was quite common in Native American groups, has been found
>> in various Amazon tribes - all within historical times, and all of
>> whom qualify as 'hunter-gatherers'.
>
>I think it's a matter of definition. There would be a few Native
>American groups which might qualify, but not many. Which were
>you thinking of? Which Amazon tribes?
>

<sigh> I spend less than 5 minutes doing a simple search, and all
sorts of examples crop up. Here's something from Columbia University
Press: "Although it is commonly held that slavery was rare among
primitive pastoral peoples and that it appeared in full form only with
the development of an agricultural economy, there are numerous
instances that contradict this belief."

If anything, it's tougher to find cultures that *didn't* have slaves
at one point or another.
 >> Stay informed about: A (Very Brief) History of Slavery 

Doug Jones wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:19:25 -0700, Glorfindel <notgiven.RemoveThis@all.com>
> wrote:

<snip>

>>I think it's a matter of definition. There would be a few Native
>>American groups which might qualify, but not many. Which were
>>you thinking of? Which Amazon tribes?

> <sigh> I spend less than 5 minutes doing a simple search, and all
> sorts of examples crop up.

Then please present some of them.


> Here's something from Columbia University
> Press: "Although it is commonly held that slavery was rare among
> primitive pastoral peoples and that it appeared in full form only with
> the development of an agricultural economy, there are numerous
> instances that contradict this belief."

I did not deny that *pastoral* peoples held slaves. All you'd
need to refute that claim would be to read the Bible. :)

> If anything, it's tougher to find cultures that *didn't* have slaves
> at one point or another.

True. However, the cultures I was talking about were very early,
primitive hunter/gatherer cultures like the Cro-Magnon family
bands or the Neanderthals. Once you get domesticated flocks and
herds (enslaved animals) you start to get enslaved humans as well.
When you get large-scale agricultural estates, mining, and similar
technology, large-scale slave-holding also develops because it
becomes economically useful.
 >> Stay informed about: A (Very Brief) History of Slavery 

Good to see you recognize you have no argument, Leif.
 >> Stay informed about: A (Very Brief) History of Slavery 

Karen Winter lied:

> Doug Jones wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:19:25 -0700, Karen Winter lied:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>> I think it's a matter of definition. There would be a few Native
>>> American groups which might qualify, but not many. Which were
>>> you thinking of? Which Amazon tribes?
>
>
>> <sigh> I spend less than 5 minutes doing a simple search, and all
>> sorts of examples crop up.
>
>
> Then please present some of them.
>
>
>> Here's something from Columbia University
>> Press: "Although it is commonly held that slavery was rare among
>> primitive pastoral peoples and that it appeared in full form only with
>> the development of an agricultural economy, there are numerous
>> instances that contradict this belief."
>
>
> I did not deny that *pastoral* peoples held slaves. All you'd
> need to refute that claim would be to read the Bible. :)
>
>> If anything, it's tougher to find cultures that *didn't* have slaves
>> at one point or another.
>
>
> True. However, the cultures I was talking about were very early,
> primitive hunter/gatherer cultures like the Cro-Magnon family
> bands or the Neanderthals.

You don't know your doughy ass from your face about
pre-historic humans, Karen. If you did, you'd know
that the Neanderthal were a dead end. You don't know
*anything* about them.
 >> Stay informed about: A (Very Brief) History of Slavery 

Good to see you recognize you have no argument, Leif.
 >> Stay informed about: A (Very Brief) History of Slavery 

Karen Winter, liar ordinaire in Santa Fe, NM, lied:
>
>
> Good to see you recognize

Horseshit. Yes, I always recognize your horseshit,
Karen.
 >> Stay informed about: A (Very Brief) History of Slavery 

Karen Winter lied:

>
>
> Good to see you recognize

Horseshit. Yes, I always recognize your horseshit, Karen.
 >> Stay informed about: A (Very Brief) History of Slavery