Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:18:53 -0000, "pearl" <tea RemoveThis @signguestbook.ie>
wrote:

><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:t24lv2htq37vv7ojf28d0a19kq10dj3pu1@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:28:17 -0000, "pearl" <tea RemoveThis @signguestbook.ie>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> >False. Already addressed.
>> >>
>> >> How is it false. Agriculture destroys and changes the structure of
>> >> wildlife habitat. That is a fact.
>> >
>> >A tenth of all land is arable land (present cropland). A third of
>> >that ten percent is used to cultivate feed crops. Up to 50% of
>> >all land is grazed by domestic livestock. But present cropland
>> >could feed ten billion people, allowing the land grazed to revert
>> >to natural habitat, as it was before it was grazed by livestock.
>>
>> Livestock graze on land that won't produce crops.
>
>So? It *was* "producing" entire ecosystems.

As were the lands currently used to grow cereal crops and
vegetables....
Agrculture kills wildlife habitat and wildlife - even vegan
agriculture.

>> Goa>ts are a case in
>> point. Man grows crops where the soil allows it, and raises
>> livestock on the land that won't grow a crop.
>
>Unnecessarily.

Please explain. People live in areas that will not grow enough crop
for the year. Livestock supliment their food and income. How is
livestock not nessisary? Should these people move to the cities and
get their food from stores?

>> Agriculture kills wildlife habitat, even for vegetarians - get over
>> it.
>
>See above.

See what? You have yet to make a valid supported point.


take the ö out of 10x@teluös.net to email me
 >> Stay informed about: Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt 

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:15:56 -0000, "pearl" <tea.DeleteThis@signguestbook.ie>
wrote:

><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:uv3lv21bjkoivr758vl48kcp6ok3lkpqis@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:28:42 -0000, "pearl" <tea.DeleteThis@signguestbook.ie>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"Chom Noamsky" <e.DeleteThis@t.me> wrote in message news:XxYJh.114958$cE3.88143@edtnps89...
>> >> > "pearl" <tea.DeleteThis@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
>> >> > news:et6d75$1ij$16@reader01.news.esat.net...
>> >> > 'Anthropocentrism
>> >> > By Penelope Smith
>> >>
>> >> <snip biased ara opinion>
>> >
>> >That's your biased, anti AR opinion.
>> >
>> >> Let me ask you one simple question (how you answer will expose your entire
>> >> philosophy as a fraud):
>> >>
>> >> Which is more worthy of rights, a seal or a fish?
>> >
>> >Both, equally. And humans? If any other species caused
>> >the damage that we do, they'd be exterminated as vermin.
>>
>> Can't argue with that one.
>> Deforestation to grow crops for vegetarians to eat is one of the worst
>> offences....
>
>Evidence?
>
The destruction of the entire shortgrass prairie ecosystem in North
America so farmers can grow crops that don't have buffalo, elk, and
grizzly destroying them. And Indians migrating through them.
The American great plains are an ecological disaster.


take the ö out of 10x@teluös.net to email me
 >> Stay informed about: Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt 

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:33:32 -0000, "pearl" <tea DeleteThis @signguestbook.ie>
wrote:

>"SaPeIsMa" <SaPeIsMa DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message news:12vl4ie6jc0oc0c@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> "pearl" <tea DeleteThis @signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
>> news:ete1t1$5a5$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
>> > "Arved Sandstrom" <asandstrom DeleteThis @accesswave.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:320Kh.115098$cE3.90778@edtnps89...
>> >> "
>> >> Why? Unless you're a vegetarian, tell me why seals are not meant to be
>> >> eaten, but poultry, cattle and fish are.
>> >
>> > "[Animals] were not made for humans any more than black
>> > people were made for whites or women for men." - Alice Walker
>> >
>>
>>
>> And who is Alice Walker that we should take her seriously ?
>
>http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22alice+walker%22&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
>

She writes excellent fiction. Good credentials for environmental
comment...


take the ö out of 10x@teluös.net to email me
 >> Stay informed about: Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt 

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:14:58 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
wrote:

><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:qj3lv2tgfp2n70a847guc3349oars2tsc8@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:23:01 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> The areas where the seal hunt occurs do get fruit and vegetables.
>> >> They hunt seals for the skins to they can afford to buy these
>> >> expensive foreign foods..
>> >
>> >So you have food sources.
>>
>> So where are these food sources? What do they cost?
>> What about transportation to get the food there?
>
>You tell us.

I asked you. Your retort is a non answer.

>> > Britain earns $82 million CAD
>> >annually from seal watching trips. Much more than $16m.
>>
>> Please name the companies that doe the seal watching eco tours in
>> Great Britian. Post some links to their internet sites. Some reading
>> htis might like to go....
>
>Look here:
>http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=seal+watching+uk&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
>
So why don't you suggest the folks who put up the 16 million for
stopping the seal hunt use that money to promote eco tourism and
subsidize those seal hunters who turn to eco tourism and just kill
enough seals to feed the tourists?
And offering it to the prime minister of Canada. An impotent
poltician can't understand money that is given to help others.



take the ö out of 10x@teluös.net to email me
 >> Stay informed about: Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt 

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:11:51 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
wrote:

><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:hg3lv219gjv8ab3u1hakfgaeov6oi03erf@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:23:01 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:9lghv2dtq5g0nura5t5oneojikgeqjv8i2@4ax.com...
>> >> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:17:30 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> >http://venus.nildram.co.uk/veganmc/polemics.htm
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So what do those who hunt seals turn to for food
>> >> >
>> >> >In this "hunt" most of the meat is left on the ice.
>> >>
>> >> Where it is utilized by birds, and eventually fish.
>> >> Remember seals eat fish. Sometimes the shoe is on the other foot...
>> >
>> >Read these pages:
>> >
>> >Something is Rotten in the Gulf of St. Lawrence:
>> >Eco-logical reasons to abolish the Canadian harp seal hunt
>> >http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/hypoxia.htm
>> >http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/rottenhypocrisy.htm
>>
>>
>> There is something rotten in the gulf of St Lawrence. It came out of
>> the sewers and tailpipes of all of the factories and homes in the
>> watershed that drained into the St. Lawrence drainage.
>> Seals have very little to do with it other than they suffer the
>> pollution.
>
>False. Read those pages.

You are wrong. THose pages only tell part of the story. The St.
Lawrence has served as a sewer for Upper and lower Canada, Northern
New York State, and Michigan for at least 200 years. There is 200
years plus of industrial pollution there. To blame it on seal hunters
who are active for two to three weeks a year is ludicrous.


take the ö out of 10x@teluös.net to email me
 >> Stay informed about: Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt 

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:10:15 -0000, "pearl" <tea.DeleteThis@signguestbook.ie>
wrote:

><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:nc3lv2pk9u4lae3obesp82red2c7kfcc7m@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:20:00 -0000, "pearl" <tea.DeleteThis@signguestbook.ie>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"Chom Noamsky" <e.DeleteThis@t.me> wrote in message news:pUWJh.83467$Du6.10748@edtnps82...
>> >> "pearl" <tea.DeleteThis@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
>> >> news:et9bp8$84o$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
>> >>
>> >> > Find ways to do it that don't harm others.
>> >>
>> >> You should apply that to your own lifestyle first. Begin by turning off
>> >> your PC which robs wildlife of its natural habitat. Do you believe wild
>> >> animals have a right to a habitat?
>> >
>> >"The human appetite for animal flesh is a driving force behind
>> >virtually every major category of environmental damage now
>> >threatening the human future: deforestation, erosion, fresh water
>> >scarcity, air and water pollution, climate change, biodiversity loss,
>> >social injustice, the destabilization of communities, and the spread
>> >of disease." - World Watch
>> >
>> One could very easily say the same about the human desire
>
>NEED.
>
>> for
>> vegetables and cereal crops. Not to mention the depletion of the
>> water table in some areas from over utilization for irrigation.
>> Not to mention the increasing salinity and reduced production of the
>> soils resulting from irrigation.
>
>No, one can't say the same about that.

You are denying proven facts???

>From Technological Trajectories and the Human Environment.
>1997. Pp. 56-73. Washington, DC: National Academy Press.
>"How Much Land Can Ten Billion People Spare for Nature?"..
>
>'By eating different species of crops and a more or less vegetarian
>diet people can change the number that a plot can feed. And large
>numbers of people do change their diets. The calories and protein
>available from present cropland could provide a vegetarian diet to
>ten billion people. A diet requiring food and feed totaling 6,000
>calories daily for ten billion people, however, would overwhelm
>the capability of present agriculture on present cropland. The
>global totals of sun, CO2, fertilizer, and even water could produce
>far more food than what ten billion people need.
>..'
>http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=4767&page=56
>

There is no more cropland that can be developed. Global warming may
open new cropland because there will be more frost free days. Also
climate paterns may change so enough rain will fall on land that could
produce crops. As it is almost every acre that is arable is being
used by humans for one crop, or another, and they use other not so
arable land for livestock.
One bad year and there could be starvation in large parts of the
world.


take the ö out of 10x@teluös.net to email me
 >> Stay informed about: Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt 

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:07:30 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
wrote:

><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:8a2lv29pft3jnk04718dtdt16l3epevn7e@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:21:38 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:6lfhv2pvsr0uju3hrq0qucbpvvrpk5d8e9@4ax.com...
>> >> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:54:14 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Yeah..right. What part of "'Most of the meat is wasted and left
>> >> >on the ice." are you still having trouble with? If as a last resort
>> >> >seal meat is required, I can't object, but that isn't the case here.
>> >>
>> >> THe meat isn't wasted, it feeds seagulls, other birds, and also the
>> >> fish that the seals eat... Nothing in nature is wasted. It all gets
>> >> recycled. You are so ego centric to think that it is just humans who
>> >> can utilize dead seals?
>> >
>> >Something is Rotten in the Gulf of St. Lawrence:
>> >Eco-logical reasons to abolish the Canadian harp seal hunt
>> >http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/hypoxia.htm
>> >http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/rottenhypocrisy.htm
>> >
>> >> >> Vegetarians are responsible for a great deal of loss of wildlife
>> >> >> habitat to the plow. They eat, wildlife starves.
>> >> >
>> >> >As if you 'omnivores' don't eat vegetables and fruits, grains,
>> >> >legumes, nuts and so on as well. Addressed in other posts.
>> >>
>> >> You had better believe I do. I also devote a significant protion of
>> >> my farm land to wildlife habitat at my own personal expense. Land
>> >> that I could be taking a profit from by renting it to a farmer rather
>> >> than have it sit uncultivated as wildlife habitat. Are you willing to
>> >> do the same?
>> >
>> >I am leaving that third of all land currently used for livestock as
>> >wildlife habitat.
>>
>> And what land is that? And what wildlife does it support?
>
>Land currently grazed, worldwide. Very little wildlife now.
>
>Read http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter6.html .

Read it. Grazing does not have to decimate wildlife. In fact grazing
can compliement wildlife in that domestic animals do not compete for
the same plant species as most wildlife.

>> >Tragically others can't get over the meat habit.
>>
>> Leaving aside land for wildlife has nothing to do with whether or not
>> one eats meat.
>
>Of course it does.
>
>> >> I eat grains, fruits, and vegetables, dairy products, and meat. Get
>> >> over it....
>> >
>> >You need to get over it.
>>
>> I don't need to get over eating as much as I do need to cut down and
>> move around more....
>>
>> >> I have set aside productive land for wildlife habitat.
>> >>
>> >> Over 60% of this land is managed for wildlife alone
>> >> http://maps.google.com/?ie=utf8&z=16&ll=56.199781,-118.836644&spn=0.00...5,0.014
>> >>
>> >> In the summer there are several thousand waterfoul there, not to
>> >> mention all of the other wildlife species that depend on water and
>> >> quality habitat year round.
>> >
>> >You don't want to hear my opinion, but the image speaks for itself.
>>
>> What is your opinion?
>> And what doe the image say, pray tell?
>> One square is 160 acres more or less. The one with the lakes and
>> sloughs on it has only 80 acres in hay production. the rest is
>> reverting to shrubs and grassland. 38 acres is covered by water. Land
>> that I used to farm. There is roughly 5 km of shorline in the spring
>> when the waterfoul are nesting. Because it has had twelve years it has
>> become pretty much sterile and needs a fire to rejuvinate the
>> grassland species.
>> The revenue from the 80 acres of hay goes to pay taxes and expenses in
>> maintianing the habitat portion.
>
>Reverting to shrubs and grassland? From what?

From monoculture grassland. The land was prairie / parkland for at
least 5000 years prior to my father and grandfather clearing it by
hand and breaking the land with horses and a walking plow.

>> >Do you shoot any of this wildlife?
>>
>> You had better believe it. The meat does not rot and every bit of it
>> gets used in one way or another.
>
>Thought so.

For every willd animal I harvest and gets eaten by my family and
friends, there is more food for the rest that remain during the cold,
spare season of winter.

>> BTW: Any vegetable crops grown here get eaten by the wildlife.

Vegetarian. An old indian word that means "poor hunter"...


take the ö out of 10x@teluös.net to email me
 >> Stay informed about: Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt 

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:07:30 -0000, "pearl" <tea DeleteThis @signguestbook.ie>
wrote:

><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:8a2lv29pft3jnk04718dtdt16l3epevn7e@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:21:38 -0000, "pearl" <tea DeleteThis @signguestbook.ie>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:6lfhv2pvsr0uju3hrq0qucbpvvrpk5d8e9@4ax.com...
>> >> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:54:14 -0000, "pearl" <tea DeleteThis @signguestbook.ie>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Yeah..right. What part of "'Most of the meat is wasted and left
>> >> >on the ice." are you still having trouble with? If as a last resort
>> >> >seal meat is required, I can't object, but that isn't the case here.
>> >>
>> >> THe meat isn't wasted, it feeds seagulls, other birds, and also the
>> >> fish that the seals eat... Nothing in nature is wasted. It all gets
>> >> recycled. You are so ego centric to think that it is just humans who
>> >> can utilize dead seals?
>> >
>> >Something is Rotten in the Gulf of St. Lawrence:
>> >Eco-logical reasons to abolish the Canadian harp seal hunt
>> >http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/hypoxia.htm
>> >http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/rottenhypocrisy.htm
>> >
>> >> >> Vegetarians are responsible for a great deal of loss of wildlife
>> >> >> habitat to the plow. They eat, wildlife starves.
>> >> >
>> >> >As if you 'omnivores' don't eat vegetables and fruits, grains,
>> >> >legumes, nuts and so on as well. Addressed in other posts.
>> >>
>> >> You had better believe I do. I also devote a significant protion of
>> >> my farm land to wildlife habitat at my own personal expense. Land
>> >> that I could be taking a profit from by renting it to a farmer rather
>> >> than have it sit uncultivated as wildlife habitat. Are you willing to
>> >> do the same?
>> >
>> >I am leaving that third of all land currently used for livestock as
>> >wildlife habitat.
>>
>> And what land is that? And what wildlife does it support?
>
>Land currently grazed, worldwide. Very little wildlife now.
>
>Read http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter6.html .
>
>> >Tragically others can't get over the meat habit.
>>
>> Leaving aside land for wildlife has nothing to do with whether or not
>> one eats meat.
>
>Of course it does.

You are right, it does, if there is wildlife using that land, you can
harvest a percentage and eat it. Thank you for correcting me!




take the ö out of 10x@teluös.net to email me
 >> Stay informed about: Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt 

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:00:01 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
wrote:

><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:642lv2h7bgj7hckgimdd4b0jeq4aee9qfv@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:18:15 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"Chom Noamsky" <e.TakeThisOut@t.me> wrote in message news:0xXJh.83479$Du6.1257@edtnps82...
>> >> "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
>> >> news:et9bt1$852$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
>> >> > "Chom Noamsky" <e.TakeThisOut@t.me> wrote in message
>> >> > news:q1WJh.83409$Du6.64406@edtnps82...
>> >> >> > "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
>> >> >> > news:et995j$6ua$2@reader01.news.esat.net...
>> >> >> >> So you would take away a traditional lifestyle and income away from
>> >> >> >> folks who have lived of the fare of the ocean for at least tens of
>> >> >> >> centuries? What would they turn to for food and income if this is
>> >> >> >> denyied them?
>> >> >> >> So what if these folks speak French. It is their lifestyle and lively
>> >> >> >> hood you attack. They don't attack you for being vegetarian.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Yeah..right. What part of "'Most of the meat is wasted and left
>> >> >> > on the ice." are you still having trouble with? If as a last resort
>> >> >> > seal meat is required, I can't object, but that isn't the case here.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Wasted because of international ARA campaigns.
>> >> >
>> >> > That's a new one. Do explain.
>> >>
>> >> I'm sure you can figure than one out for yourself... or maybe not... you
>> >> seem to be heavily reliant on "answers.com"
>> >
>> >And yet more evasion.
>> >
>> >> >> >> Vegetarians are responsible for a great deal of loss of wildlife
>> >> >> >> habitat to the plow. They eat, wildlife starves.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > As if you 'omnivores' don't eat vegetables and fruits, grains,
>> >> >> > legumes, nuts and so on as well. Addressed in other posts.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The 'ominvores' are not preaching from a holider-than-thou position
>> >> >
>> >> > That sure doesn't stop you from trying.
>> >>
>> >> You are the one wishing to foist your ideology and beliefs upon others.
>> >
>> >You are the ones forcing your ideology and beliefs upon others.
>>
>> Those who are against the seal hunt are very willing to force their
>> deology and beliefs upon others.
>> From a distance no less...
>
>When you stop doing it, we'll stop exposing what you are up to.

When I stop doing what? Providing a natural place for wildlife to
live. Eating the same animals that natives were eating for five
thousand years? Giving a place back to nature that I know will be
there for my children to enjoy? Setting an example in conservation
that I hope others might follow so that more land gets set aside for
native plants and animals? Is there something wrong with that?

>'Taking Animals Seriously Mental Life and Moral Status
>by David DeGrazia
><review>
>
> Most people who approach Taking Animals Seriously will share an
>unspoken presupposition.

I do take animals and their habitat very seriously. They are part of
my diet and I want to maintain species variety and production in a
healthy population.
Folks can write all they want from armchairs but the bottom line is
where the hoof hits the ground. Someone has to pay for that ground.
and some one has to absorb the loss of cereal crop production from
that ground.
The land I have set aside for wildlife would grow between 45 and 70
bushells of wheat per acre in the mid 1960's without fertilizer,
herbacides, or pesticides. It would grow 110 bushels/acre of oats.
I have lost the revenue from that. One or two deer in a year (sixty to
one hundre fifty pounds of meat) do not make up for that loss.

What have you done for wildlife that costs you out of your pocket?


take the ö out of 10x@teluös.net to email me
 >> Stay informed about: Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt 

<10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:4rblv29pma2cfjp4ihm0srbd5sqmcng80b@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:00:01 -0000, "pearl" <tea DeleteThis @signguestbook.ie>
> wrote:
>
> ><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:642lv2h7bgj7hckgimdd4b0jeq4aee9qfv@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:18:15 -0000, "pearl" <tea DeleteThis @signguestbook.ie>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"Chom Noamsky" <e DeleteThis @t.me> wrote in message news:0xXJh.83479$Du6.1257@edtnps82...
> >> >> "pearl" <tea DeleteThis @signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
> >> >> news:et9bt1$852$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> >> >> > "Chom Noamsky" <e DeleteThis @t.me> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:q1WJh.83409$Du6.64406@edtnps82...
> >> >> >> > "pearl" <tea DeleteThis @signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
> >> >> >> > news:et995j$6ua$2@reader01.news.esat.net...
> >> >> >> >> So you would take away a traditional lifestyle and income away from
> >> >> >> >> folks who have lived of the fare of the ocean for at least tens of
> >> >> >> >> centuries? What would they turn to for food and income if this is
> >> >> >> >> denyied them?
> >> >> >> >> So what if these folks speak French. It is their lifestyle and lively
> >> >> >> >> hood you attack. They don't attack you for being vegetarian.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Yeah..right. What part of "'Most of the meat is wasted and left
> >> >> >> > on the ice." are you still having trouble with? If as a last resort
> >> >> >> > seal meat is required, I can't object, but that isn't the case here.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Wasted because of international ARA campaigns.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That's a new one. Do explain.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm sure you can figure than one out for yourself... or maybe not... you
> >> >> seem to be heavily reliant on "answers.com"
> >> >
> >> >And yet more evasion.
> >> >
> >> >> >> >> Vegetarians are responsible for a great deal of loss of wildlife
> >> >> >> >> habitat to the plow. They eat, wildlife starves.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > As if you 'omnivores' don't eat vegetables and fruits, grains,
> >> >> >> > legumes, nuts and so on as well. Addressed in other posts.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The 'ominvores' are not preaching from a holider-than-thou position
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That sure doesn't stop you from trying.
> >> >>
> >> >> You are the one wishing to foist your ideology and beliefs upon others.
> >> >
> >> >You are the ones forcing your ideology and beliefs upon others.
> >>
> >> Those who are against the seal hunt are very willing to force their
> >> deology and beliefs upon others.
> >> From a distance no less...
> >
> >When you stop doing it, we'll stop exposing what you are up to.
>
> When I stop doing what?

Needlessly and cruelly killing hundreds of thousands of seals.

> Providing a natural place for wildlife to live.

......and die.

> Eating the same animals that natives were eating for five
> thousand years?

They had little choice. You do.

> Giving a place back to nature that I know will be
> there for my children to enjoy? Setting an example in conservation
> that I hope others might follow so that more land gets set aside for
> native plants and animals? Is there something wrong with that?

All very commendable. Go vegetarian and "give back" a great
deal more, without taking back with the other hand and a gun.

> >'Taking Animals Seriously Mental Life and Moral Status
> >by David DeGrazia
> ><review>
> >
> > Most people who approach Taking Animals Seriously will share an
> >unspoken presupposition.
>
> I do take animals and their habitat very seriously. They are part of
> my diet

They are not a part of humans' diet. Humans are not predators.

> and I want to maintain species variety and production in a
> healthy population.

Not being a natural predator, you cannot function as they do.

> Folks can write all they want from armchairs but the bottom line is
> where the hoof hits the ground. Someone has to pay for that ground.
> and some one has to absorb the loss of cereal crop production from
> that ground.

Use a fraction of your acreage to produce human-edible crops.

> The land I have set aside for wildlife would grow between 45 and 70
> bushells of wheat per acre in the mid 1960's without fertilizer,
> herbacides, or pesticides. It would grow 110 bushels/acre of oats.
> I have lost the revenue from that. One or two deer in a year (sixty to
> one hundre fifty pounds of meat) do not make up for that loss.

And why should they indeed. They were there long before you.

> What have you done for wildlife that costs you out of your pocket?

I'm trying to help set things right, for them, us and the planet.
 >> Stay informed about: Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt 

<10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:4gblv2tkr71popaksjsnaador3kvphmrqd@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:07:30 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
> wrote:
>
> ><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:8a2lv29pft3jnk04718dtdt16l3epevn7e@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:21:38 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> ><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:6lfhv2pvsr0uju3hrq0qucbpvvrpk5d8e9@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:54:14 -0000, "pearl" <tea.TakeThisOut@signguestbook.ie>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Yeah..right. What part of "'Most of the meat is wasted and left
> >> >> >on the ice." are you still having trouble with? If as a last resort
> >> >> >seal meat is required, I can't object, but that isn't the case here.
> >> >>
> >> >> THe meat isn't wasted, it feeds seagulls, other birds, and also the
> >> >> fish that the seals eat... Nothing in nature is wasted. It all gets
> >> >> recycled. You are so ego centric to think that it is just humans who
> >> >> can utilize dead seals?
> >> >
> >> >Something is Rotten in the Gulf of St. Lawrence:
> >> >Eco-logical reasons to abolish the Canadian harp seal hunt
> >> >http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/hypoxia.htm
> >> >http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/rottenhypocrisy.htm
> >> >
> >> >> >> Vegetarians are responsible for a great deal of loss of wildlife
> >> >> >> habitat to the plow. They eat, wildlife starves.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >As if you 'omnivores' don't eat vegetables and fruits, grains,
> >> >> >legumes, nuts and so on as well. Addressed in other posts.
> >> >>
> >> >> You had better believe I do. I also devote a significant protion of
> >> >> my farm land to wildlife habitat at my own personal expense. Land
> >> >> that I could be taking a profit from by renting it to a farmer rather
> >> >> than have it sit uncultivated as wildlife habitat. Are you willing to
> >> >> do the same?
> >> >
> >> >I am leaving that third of all land currently used for livestock as
> >> >wildlife habitat.
> >>
> >> And what land is that? And what wildlife does it support?
> >
> >Land currently grazed, worldwide. Very little wildlife now.
> >
> >Read http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter6.html .
>
> Read it. Grazing does not have to decimate wildlife. In fact grazing
> can compliement wildlife in that domestic animals do not compete for
> the same plant species as most wildlife.

You can't have read it if you are still saying that.

> >> >Tragically others can't get over the meat habit.
> >>
> >> Leaving aside land for wildlife has nothing to do with whether or not
> >> one eats meat.
> >
> >Of course it does.
> >
> >> >> I eat grains, fruits, and vegetables, dairy products, and meat. Get
> >> >> over it....
> >> >
> >> >You need to get over it.
> >>
> >> I don't need to get over eating as much as I do need to cut down and
> >> move around more....
> >>
> >> >> I have set aside productive land for wildlife habitat.
> >> >>
> >> >> Over 60% of this land is managed for wildlife alone
> >> >> http://maps.google.com/?ie=utf8&z=16&ll=56.199781,-118.836644&spn=0.00...5,0.014
> >> >>
> >> >> In the summer there are several thousand waterfoul there, not to
> >> >> mention all of the other wildlife species that depend on water and
> >> >> quality habitat year round.
> >> >
> >> >You don't want to hear my opinion, but the image speaks for itself.
> >>
> >> What is your opinion?
> >> And what doe the image say, pray tell?
> >> One square is 160 acres more or less. The one with the lakes and
> >> sloughs on it has only 80 acres in hay production. the rest is
> >> reverting to shrubs and grassland. 38 acres is covered by water. Land
> >> that I used to farm. There is roughly 5 km of shorline in the spring
> >> when the waterfoul are nesting. Because it has had twelve years it has
> >> become pretty much sterile and needs a fire to rejuvinate the
> >> grassland species.
> >> The revenue from the 80 acres of hay goes to pay taxes and expenses in
> >> maintianing the habitat portion.
> >
> >Reverting to shrubs and grassland? From what?
>
> From monoculture grassland. The land was prairie / parkland for at
> least 5000 years prior to my father and grandfather clearing it by
> hand and breaking the land with horses and a walking plow.

Grazing, in other words.

> >> >Do you shoot any of this wildlife?
> >>
> >> You had better believe it. The meat does not rot and every bit of it
> >> gets used in one way or another.
> >
> >Thought so.
>
> For every willd animal I harvest and gets eaten by my family and
> friends, there is more food for the rest that remain during the cold,
> spare season of winter.

Nature is a self-regulating homeostatic system. Above all what
wild species need is habitat and space, and for us to back off.

> >> BTW: Any vegetable crops grown here get eaten by the wildlife.
>
> Vegetarian. An old indian word that means "poor hunter"...

'The word vegetarian, coined by the founders of the British
Vegetarian Society in 1842, comes from the Latin word vegetus,
meaning "whole, sound, fresh, or lively," as in homo vegetus -
a mentally and physically vigorous person. The original meaning
of the word implies a balanced philosophical and moral sense
of life, a lot more than just a diet of vegetables and fruits.
...'
http://veg.ca/content/view/195/87/
 >> Stay informed about: Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt 

<10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:soblv2l7bf2c2lhmv1qjs1a2kdctimggkp@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:07:30 -0000, "pearl" <tea.DeleteThis@signguestbook.ie>
> wrote:
>
> ><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:8a2lv29pft3jnk04718dtdt16l3epevn7e@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:21:38 -0000, "pearl" <tea.DeleteThis@signguestbook.ie>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> ><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:6lfhv2pvsr0uju3hrq0qucbpvvrpk5d8e9@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:54:14 -0000, "pearl" <tea.DeleteThis@signguestbook.ie>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Yeah..right. What part of "'Most of the meat is wasted and left
> >> >> >on the ice." are you still having trouble with? If as a last resort
> >> >> >seal meat is required, I can't object, but that isn't the case here.
> >> >>
> >> >> THe meat isn't wasted, it feeds seagulls, other birds, and also the
> >> >> fish that the seals eat... Nothing in nature is wasted. It all gets
> >> >> recycled. You are so ego centric to think that it is just humans who
> >> >> can utilize dead seals?
> >> >
> >> >Something is Rotten in the Gulf of St. Lawrence:
> >> >Eco-logical reasons to abolish the Canadian harp seal hunt
> >> >http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/hypoxia.htm
> >> >http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/rottenhypocrisy.htm
> >> >
> >> >> >> Vegetarians are responsible for a great deal of loss of wildlife
> >> >> >> habitat to the plow. They eat, wildlife starves.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >As if you 'omnivores' don't eat vegetables and fruits, grains,
> >> >> >legumes, nuts and so on as well. Addressed in other posts.
> >> >>
> >> >> You had better believe I do. I also devote a significant protion of
> >> >> my farm land to wildlife habitat at my own personal expense. Land
> >> >> that I could be taking a profit from by renting it to a farmer rather
> >> >> than have it sit uncultivated as wildlife habitat. Are you willing to
> >> >> do the same?
> >> >
> >> >I am leaving that third of all land currently used for livestock as
> >> >wildlife habitat.
> >>
> >> And what land is that? And what wildlife does it support?
> >
> >Land currently grazed, worldwide. Very little wildlife now.
> >
> >Read http://www.wasteofthewest.com/Chapter6.html .
> >
> >> >Tragically others can't get over the meat habit.
> >>
> >> Leaving aside land for wildlife has nothing to do with whether or not
> >> one eats meat.
> >
> >Of course it does.
>
> You are right, it does, if there is wildlife using that land, you can
> harvest a percentage and eat it. Thank you for correcting me!

Wildlife is not a crop that you "harvest". At least have the
guts and minimal honesty to call it what it really is - killing.
 >> Stay informed about: Help End the Cruel Harp Seal Hunt 

<10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:u8blv2t5km9rrt83ho3pbavrjm0fhs1g55@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:10:15 -0000, "pearl" <tea.DeleteThis@signguestbook.ie>
> wrote:
>
> ><10x@teluös.net> wrote in message news:nc3lv2pk9u4lae3obesp82red2c7kfcc7m@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 12:20:00 -0000, "pearl" <tea.DeleteThis@signguestbook.ie>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"Chom Noamsky" <e.DeleteThis@t.me> wrote in message news:pUWJh.83467$Du6.10748@edtnps82...
> >> >> "pearl" <tea.DeleteThis@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
> >> >> news:et9bp8$84o$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> >> >>
> >> >> > Find ways to do it that don't harm others.
> >> >>
> >> >> You should apply that to your own lifestyle first. Begin by turning off
> >> >> your PC which robs wildlife of its natural habitat. Do you believe wild
> >> >> animals have a right to a habitat?
> >> >
> >> >"The human appetite for animal flesh is a driving force behind
> >> >virtually every major category of environmental damage now
> >> >threatening the human future: deforestation, erosion, fresh water
> >> >scarcity, air and water pollution, climate change, biodiversity loss,
> >> >social injustice, the destabilization of communities, and the spread
> >> >of disease." - World Watch
> >> >
> >> One could very easily say the same about the human desire
> >
> >NEED.
> >
> >> for
> >> vegetables and cereal crops. Not to mention the depletion of the
> >> water table in some areas from over utilization for irrigation.
> >> Not to mention the increasing salinity and reduced production of the
> >> soils resulting from irrigation.
> >
> >No, one can't say the same about that.
>
> You are denying proven facts???

Not I.

'The livestock business is among the most damaging sectors to the
earth's increasingly scarce water resources, contributing among other
things to water pollution, euthropication and the degeneration of coral
reefs. The major polluting agents are animal wastes, antibiotics and
hormones, chemicals from tanneries, fertilizers and the pesticides used
to spray feed crops. Widespread overgrazing disturbs water cycles,
reducing replenishment of above and below ground water resources.
Significant amounts of water are withdrawn for the production of feed.
.....'
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/index.html

'The 7 billion livestock animals in the United States consume
five times as much grain as is consumed directly by the entire
American population.
...
About 26 million tons of the livestock feed comes from
grains and 15 million tons from forage crops.
...
More than 302 million hectares of land are devoted to
producing feed for the U.S. livestock population -- about
272 million hectares in pasture and about 30 million hectares
for cultivated feed grains.
...'
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug97/livestock.hrs.html

U.S acres
Total dried beans and peas 2,140,851
Peanuts 1,436,034
Potatoes 1,309,963
Rice 2,424,864
Total sugar 2,172,550
Vegetables 3,264,343
http://ca.water.usgs.gov/pnsp/circ1131/table2.html

= 12,748,605 acres; (* 0.4047) = 5,159,360 hectares.
+
Orchards, vineyards, and nursery 4,462,591 acres
(= 1,806,010 hectares)
http://ca.water.usgs.gov/pnsp/circ1131/table6.html
+
6 million hectares grain (based on the above from Cornell).
=
Total: 12,965,370 hectares, round to 13 million hectares.

> >From Technological Trajectories and the Human Environment.
> >1997. Pp. 56-73. Washington, DC: National Academy Press.
> >"How Much Land Can Ten Billion People Spare for Nature?"..
> >
> >'By eating different species of crops and a more or less vegetarian
> >diet people can change the number that a plot can feed. And large
> >numbers of people do change their diets. The calories and protein
> >available from present cropland could provide a vegetarian diet to
> >ten billion people. A diet requiring food and feed totaling 6,000
> >calories daily for ten billion people, however, would overwhelm
> >the capability of present agriculture on present cropland. The
> >global totals of sun, CO2, fertilizer, and even water could produce
> >far more food than what ten billion people need.
> >..'
> >http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=4767&page=56
> >
>
> There is no more cropland that can be developed. Global warming may
> open new cropland because there will be more frost free days. Also
> climate paterns may change so enough rain will fall on land that could
> produce crops. As it is almost every acre that is arable is being
> used by humans for one crop, or another, and they use other not so
> arable land for livestock.
> One bad year and there could be starvation in large parts of the
> world.

'October 2006
...
More than 852 million people -- about 13 percent of the world
population -- do not have enough food each day to sustain a
healthy life, according to the Rome-based Food and Agriculture
Organisation (FAO).

Of this, about 815 million people live in developing countries,
28 million in "transition" countries of the former Eastern Europe
and ex-Soviet republics, and about nine million in the industrialised
world.

"It is a shame on humanity that in a world that is richer than ever
before, six million children due of malnutrition and related illnesses
before they reach the age of five," Ziegler said.

The study, which goes before the current 61st session of the
General Assembly, points out that the majority of the hungry
live in Asia and Africa, while about 80 percent live in rural areas
and depend on agriculture and pastoralism to survive.

"They are hungry because they do not have enough work, or
access to productive resources like land and water sufficient to
feed their families," it says.
....'
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=35166

"Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface,
mostly permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the
global arable land used to producing feed for livestock, the report
notes. As forests are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major
driver of deforestation, especially in Latin America where, for
example, some 70 percent of former forests in the Amazon have
been turned over to grazing."

'Livestock a major threat to environment
...
.... a steep environmental price, according to the FAO report,
Livestock's Long Shadow -Environmental Issues and Options.
"The environmental costs per unit of livestock production must
be cut by one half, just to avoid the level of damage worsening
beyond its present level," it warns.

When emissions from land use and land use change are included, the
livestock sector accounts for 9 percent of CO2 deriving from human-
related activities, but produces a much larger share of even more
harmful greenhouse gases. It generates 65 percent of human-related
nitrous oxide, which has 296 times the Global Warming Potential
(GWP) of CO2. Most of this comes from manure.

And it accounts for respectively 37 percent of all human-induced
methane (23 times as warming as CO2), which is largely produced
by the digestive system of ruminants, and 64 percent of ammonia,
which contributes significantly to acid rain.

Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth's entire land surface, mostly
permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the global arable land
used to producing feed for livestock, the report notes. As forests are
cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation,
especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 percent of
former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing.

Land and water

At the same time herds cause wide-scale land degradation, with about
20 percent of pastures considered as degraded through overgrazing,
compaction and erosion. This figure is even higher in the drylands
where inappropriate policies and inadequate livestock management
contribute to advancing desertification.

The livestock business is among the most damaging sectors to the
earth's increasingly scarce water resources, contributing among othe