Great Dane

> If you are somewhere outside the US, don't expect to find many breeders
> doing any kind of genetic testing. However, there are rescue groups in
most
> countries now.
> EGD


It's required here (the Netherlands) before registration with the
Nederlandse Duitse Doggen Club is possible, and without this testing on
generations of the (great)(grand)parents the breeder is not considered
reputable. They test for hip, heart, and elbow problems, some other things.
Our Saskia is from a breeding of the equivalent of an "excellent" and a
"very good" (hips), I guess--the system is somewhat different here as to how
the results are labeled, but however it is looked at, it's very difficult to
find better in any given litter. The parents and grandparents of Saskia's
parents are as good or better on this criterion, and in addition they all
lived to be at least 10, some of them 13. I'm sorry if I seem to harp on
this point, but I do get tired of the "U.S. conscientious and good",
"everywhere else lax and sloppy" attitude--it comes up a lot especially
regarding rawhide bones. Yes, there are lots of places where the norm is not
to test. And there are lots where it is--the entire rest of the world that
is not the U.S. simply cannot be lumped into one group. Places are too
different from each other.
--Katrina
 >> Stay informed about: Great Dane 

"White Monkey" <k.m.c.ooper.RemoveThis@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:411c79d9$1$49711$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> > If you are somewhere outside the US, don't expect to find many breeders
> > doing any kind of genetic testing. However, there are rescue groups in
> most
> > countries now.
> > EGD
>
>
> It's required here (the Netherlands) before registration with the
> Nederlandse Duitse Doggen Club is possible, and without this testing on
> generations of the (great)(grand)parents the breeder is not considered
> reputable. They test for hip, heart, and elbow problems, some other
things.
> Our Saskia is from a breeding of the equivalent of an "excellent" and a
> "very good" (hips), I guess--the system is somewhat different here as to
how
> the results are labeled, but however it is looked at, it's very difficult
to
> find better in any given litter. The parents and grandparents of Saskia's
> parents are as good or better on this criterion, and in addition they all
> lived to be at least 10, some of them 13. I'm sorry if I seem to harp on
> this point, but I do get tired of the "U.S. conscientious and good",
> "everywhere else lax and sloppy" attitude--it comes up a lot especially
> regarding rawhide bones. Yes, there are lots of places where the norm is
not
> to test. And there are lots where it is--the entire rest of the world that
> is not the U.S. simply cannot be lumped into one group. Places are too
> different from each other.
> --Katrina
>
>
Katrina
I certainly didn't mean to imply that US breeders test and everywhere else
is lax and sloppy. Sadly, the majority of US breeders "don't" test. However
a good majority of "responsible" breeders, do.
I'm very glad to know that testing is enforced so strictly in the
Netherlands. However, I think you will agree that in most countries, testing
of any kind, is seldom performed - even by those who very well known and
well thought of, in the breed.
In England, France, Italy, all South American countries and many others
around the world, testing is hardly ever done. Often never. Having GD
breeder friends in India, where the breed is now finding many fanciers, I
know testing is not even heard of. I am not sure about Japan - even though
the breed is immensely popular there and many large kennels have imported
tons of dogs from the US. I happen to write for a GD group in England and
have been harping on about this for ages. At least since 1997. Hasn't done
much good. I received a letter from a lady about three weeks ago, who has
been searching for a GD in England for several weeks and has so far, out of
27 breeders she has contacted, she has only found one who does minimal
testing. Even the GD clubs and associations don't speak of it much. Sadly, I
receive horror stories almost weekly from those who have purchased dogs from
some of England's top breeders and who now face losing their dogs early from
some dreadful genetic problem. Remember, I'm only speaking here of those
breeders who are considered extremely well known and supposedly have the
best stock available and who show their dogs etc. Obviously there are
thousands of others who just breed for money or "just because".
Incidentally, I have also encountered many supposedly knowledgeable breeders
in Europe who actually poo-poo the fact that testing is done in the US - as
though those who "do" test, must have something wrong with their stock. I am
not sure how widespread - or not, testing is in Germany now. Perhaps you
know. I like the German "look" very much, except for the many terrible rears
and flat feet I see. Always amazes me that the Germans have yet to address
those very weak rears rampant within the breed there.
A friend of mine in Canada, imported a Harle from a top French kennel 2
years ago. This poor dog has just about everything you wouldn't wish for. He
has CHD, Ectropion, a terrible "East/West" front and now a heart problem.
There is a kennel in Italy which has some absolutely incredible looking dogs
and I'd dearly love to have one, but knowing what I do about their dogs, I'd
never actually purchase one.
Not sure what you are referring to when you mention rawhide bones. Maybe you
could enlighten me. I do know, having seen first hand, the problems they can
cause, I'd never give my dogs one.
EGD
 >> Stay informed about: Great Dane 

Hi Katrina
No apologies necessary.
Thank you for the urls. I'll send the NDD one along to the lady who wrote me
if she hasn't still had any luck. She didn't say whether she'd be willing to
go out of England to look.
Personally I don't have a problem with shipping dogs - I've hauled mine all
over the world. Just this week we have two horses coming from England -
sight unseen! Well we have seen photos of course and a friend has seen them
in person and that helps. The filly actually has already landed but the
Stallion will be flying out in three weeks. And yes - horses really "do" fly
first class all the way. The "horse" planes are quite incredible.
Actually I have seen Argus before and like him very much. Some of the pics
in the urls you sent are a bit dark and it's difficult to see so it's hard
to see what I liked or disliked. What I have noted about flat feet and
droopy, cow-hocked rears, I saw on many private websites and those were dogs
who were apparently tops in Germany. Of course now, in Italy, I have seen
the top winner - who was listed as a Harlequin, wasn't in fact a Harle at
all - but a Piebald!! Now that "really" makes me mad and more than a little
digusted. This is a dog to whom everyone and their uncle will try to breed
to their bitches and will in fact only serve to harm the breed drastically.
Genetically anyway. :(
There are very few US lines I like these days. Not nearly enough body for
me. Too tall, lightweight, whippety, fine boned etc. A few Fawn/Brindle
lines still have enough body to go with their heads and the same in Harles.
But the Harles still have the problem of low tail sets - as always.
After the War, the breeders in England had a terrible time in Danes. Many of
the good kennels had completely disappeared. Some had to put all their dogs
to sleep for lack of food supplies. Since then, they have I think, imported
some of the very best dogs from the US, Germany and other countries and are
now turning out some very, very nice dogs. At least dogs which appeal to me
for many reasons. But there again, I'm talking only about the best and once
again, so few bother to test.
A great many in the US are importing German dogs now. Knowing that on the
whole the US dogs have very mild temperaments, some new owners of German
dogs or mixed German/US dogs, might get quite a surprise, since I know that
the Germans like and breed their dogs to be much more "sharp" than those
here.
It's all pretty interesting to watch.
Re rawhide things. Well I haven't heard a whole lot about it recently, but a
while back it was much the topic on lots of forums. I cannot remember now
just "where" the rawhide was made which was found to contain poisons - or
the brand names.
BTW I like the pic of your girl in her first day of school! Looked like the
attack of the Munchkins.
EGD
 >> Stay informed about: Great Dane 

> Personally I don't have a problem with shipping dogs - I've hauled mine
all
> over the world. Just this week we have two horses coming from England -
> sight unseen! Well we have seen photos of course and a friend has seen
them
> in person and that helps. The filly actually has already landed but the
> Stallion will be flying out in three weeks. And yes - horses really "do"
fly
> first class all the way. The "horse" planes are quite incredible.

Well, put THAT way I have no problem with it. If everyone did it like that
this would be a better world. But I've seen far too many dogs, cats and
birds shipped "the other way" to approve of *that*--put in carriers and
then into the unpressurized holds of airplanes or freight cars on trains,
among baggage and unshielded from the cold, no-one to check on them and see
that they still have food or water, and then a chaotic and terrifying
baggage-handling facility at the far end before a total stranger shows up
for a long car or truck ride. If we manage to move to Sicily in Saskia's
lifetime, we'll be taking a nice, comfortable train, with her riding in our
cabin, and with frequent stops at nice, pet-friendly hotels. So it'll take
days and days... we'll get to see a lot of Europe.

I'm a horse person--c'mon, do tell, what did you get?

> There are very few US lines I like these days. Not nearly enough body for
> me. Too tall, lightweight, whippety, fine boned etc.

Yeah, me too. I saw a picture the other day of an American black Dane with a
narrow head and almost no lips at all--looked like a giant greyhound
(nothing against greyhounds, but this was supposed to be a Dane). Yesterday
we ran into the only other Dane in our immediate area, a black, and he has a
marvelous wide head, big dangly thick lips and a great smile, we loved him.

> A great many in the US are importing German dogs now. Knowing that on the
> whole the US dogs have very mild temperaments, some new owners of German
> dogs or mixed German/US dogs, might get quite a surprise, since I know
that
> the Germans like and breed their dogs to be much more "sharp" than those
> here.

The Dutch and Belgian dogs tend to be loving and loyal and "safe" but CAN be
goofy and higher-energy than many Americans expect. Saskia is a true
laid-back Dane (just what we wanted--what with me being 32 weeks pregnant
and all) but at six months old still does need (in addition ot her several
short "potty walks" and in-house play like tug games) a spread-out hour or
more every day of play with a lot of running--Frisbee, tag, chasing other
dogs, etc.--and if she doesn't get it (like when we just restricted activity
for a few days because of a sore muscle I let her get by overplaying with a
lab--shame, shame) she just wants to wrestle and play the
grab-cheeks-Wookie-noises game all day and night. She also barks more than
the American Danes my husband grew up with and that I'd met. Not a LOT of
barking, mind you, but she'll let out a run of barks and growls if someone
goes by out front or she hears a weird noise, or to get the attention of a
playmate, or if we go out without her, and she has a lot of different barks
she uses to "talk" to us, along with a wide vocabulary of roos and gurgles
and mreeuws and trills and so forth. Saskia's half-sister, Rose, is a
brindle, and when we met her she was just on the go the whole time, barking
and boucing and waving her feet around and generally being a total goofball.
She's, I think, just over three years old. Saskia's mother was active and a
bit playful, followed us around and rubbed us a lot with her head, smiled a
lot and wanted her paws grabbed, never sat or lay down--and she's six and a
half. Likewise this black guy yesterday--he was a real ball of energy, VERY
active and excitable, and he's almost six.

> Re rawhide things. Well I haven't heard a whole lot about it recently, but
a
> while back it was much the topic on lots of forums. I cannot remember now
> just "where" the rawhide was made which was found to contain poisons - or
> the brand names.

I know it DOES happen. Mexico and some Asian countries were cited, as I
recall (but not which ones). But hearing from people that it's only safe to
buy US because everyone else does it really gets to me. Especially when only
the US and Canada and one other country, I forget which, still use massive
hormone doses and things in their beef cattle.... US beef is not allowed in
the European Union except from approved organic farmers, but that's OK--I
don't want to eat or feed my dog all those hormones, not to mention the
antibiotics, and I am perfectly happy with all this excellent Scottish,
Brazilian, and Belgian beef we get. (And please no-one accuse me of
America-bashing--I'm just expressing a personal opinion and I really don't
want a political free-for-all in the middle of a discussion about my
favorite dog breed).

> BTW I like the pic of your girl in her first day of school! Looked like
the
> attack of the Munchkins.
> EGD

Hee, hee! Yup, those two, the smallest there, LOVED her! That was also her
ONLY day of school, though, darn it.... It took us over two hours to get
back, because it was in the middle of nowhere and the buses ran weird after
8, and it was a hot day, and when we finally staggered in here after 11 at
night poor Saskia was so wiped out we just ate the fee for the classes and
started looking even harder for something closer. We have now applied at a
kynologie club (not sure what that is in English?) and are waiting to hear
back. They have Young Dog courses starting soon, and it's only a 15-minute
bus ride away (Sakia loves the bus). Meanwhile, though, she knows "sit",
"stay", "lie down", "touch [me]", "where's your... [toy, ball, harness,
etc.]", "calm down", "leave it", "leave the cat alone", "come [back]",
"shake hands", "full down" (a lie-down with her head on the ground), "stop",
"wait", "heel", "long lead" and "short lead" (referring to the Flexi), and
some others, and is pretty darn reliable on all of them.But we feel that
some group lessons will benefit her, especially as she's a bit shy with new
people (but loves everyone anyway) and still doesn't always listen so well
when in a free-play situation or when she wants to go greet a dog or cat or
child (in a six-month-old baby dog? Imagine! We actually feel she's
astoundingly obedient and well-behaved for her age, but then, she's a Dane).

I'll be adding a couple of pictures later today or tomorrow, by the
way--last night she lay down on the bed and threw her tail across the
sleeping cat, so we took pictures, but then she stuck her nose out a while
later and had it stuffed into the cat's belly, so we took pictures, but THEN
she actually rested her chin ON the cat, and the cat *did not object* but
instead went right back to sleep, so you bet we took pictures.

--Katrina
 >> Stay informed about: Great Dane 

Our family owned two Danes and they are affectionate, playful, dogs.
However, they are prone to variouis bone diseases (given their size). They
are NOT an economy dog.
-Rich
 >> Stay informed about: Great Dane 

> Your possible trip to Cicily sounds like fun.

We moved from San Diego, California to the Netherlands 11 1/2 years ago,
right after our wedding. We're dreaming of better climates by now, I tell
you. We're hoping to relocate altogether within the decade--now that we're
citizens of the European Union, we can live and work in dozens of countries
without all the formalities like visas and residency permits, and my husband
has Sicilian ancestry. But it's unlikely we'll get the opportunity within
the next five years or so--we just got the citizenship in February, it was
hard going before that for a very long time, and now we have a new house,
new dog (flat out on her side now after a rousing evening playing with a
ridgeback), and a whole new human being on the way. But the moment we can
find some work to do that we can do from there (my husband IS a web
designer, but the economy's a bit flat right now) or win the lottery or if
we really CAN afford to get my husband into flight school soon and get him
that pilot accreditation he so desperately wants to earn, then we're off!

>Growing up in Europe, I
> travelled with my dogs everywhere. On trains, buses, to restaurants,
pubs -
> just everywhere.

Where did you grow up?

Yes, Saskia enjoys a good day walking to the vet or pet store by way of the
shopping center, grocery store, and bar, and taking the bus back. Everyone
loves to meet her, and in the bar she can often play with an American
Bulldog or a Dogue de Bordeaux, both named Tyson. And she and other dogs can
play off-lead all over the place just across the road from us, among some
large apartment blocks surrounded by lawn and trees. We're just across the
river from downtown Amsterdam, in a suburban area. We have taken her into
town, to a few shops, and we'll be introducing her to the train and the
metro soon.

LOVED your colt and deer stories!

> About the new horses. They are Gypsy Horses. ...
> EGD

Ooooh, I LIKE them! They sound like a good choice for my husband someday,
too.... I grew up with jumpers and trail riding, but he had never been on a
horse the time I took him riding and the horse decided to get rid of him,
and chipped his spine on a field of river rocks. We didn't have health
insurance then, either--ouch! But he wants to learn and to ride someday, but
has expressed a quite understandable desire for something really placid to
do it on. I haven't been on a horse in far too long, years, but I dream
about it. I mean really dream about it, not daydream about it. I'm not going
to make it long after this baby is born before I won't be able to stand it
anymore and will find SOME way to get back up there! I rode for 20 years,
almost without a break. We might actually start seeing some of that stuff...
what's it called... money, that's it!... before long, now that we're
citizens and able to work beyond my husband's struggling company. That helps
get one on horseback!

Uh-oh, better get this back on topic... You're a Dane person, what's your
take on the great spay debate? I've got equal numbers of vets saying spay
before the first heat to prevent breast cancer, after the first heat to
prevent spay incontinence, and it doesn't matter, and one breeder saying
spay before the first heat and one breeder saying wait for her to fully grow
up first. I've also got equal numbers of people saying Danes are sensitive
to anaesthetics and should only be spayed by a vet with Dane experience, and
that it doesn't matter as long as the vet has lots of spay experience.
Saskia is six months old, and our baby is due in October... it'd be nice to
get that taken care of before then!
--Katrina
 >> Stay informed about: Great Dane 

You're askin liars dog abusers cowards and
active long term incurable MENTAL CASES
who don't know HOWE to handle and raise
their own dogs or children.

You're INSANE if you believe ANY THING they sez.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >

<dpapaef.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8f5d8afa.0408121037.18c5e32c@posting.google.com...
> Hello all,
>
> Some time in the future, the next couple of years or so, I'd
like to
> own a Great Dane. I'm torn between getting a dog from a breeder
and
> finding a dog in rescue. If I were to buy from a breeder I
could
> check the pedigree and hopefully be reasonably assured of the
dog's
> temperament and that the parents had the following health
> certifications; OFA hip, OFA Echocardio Normal, thyroid normal
and
> CERF eyes normal, AKC DNA certified.
>
> If were to rescue a dog I'd worry about how the dog was treated
as a
> puppy, possible health problems, if the dog was fed properly as
a pup
> etc. I am not opposed to rescuing a Great Dane or even a Great
Dane
> mix but those thoughts would be in the back of my mind.
>
> I have no intention of showing the dog he/she would be a
companion
> animal - though I might do some agility to keep us on our toes.
>
> Thoughts? Pros and Cons of what I've just written?
 >> Stay informed about: Great Dane