Good quote from Mill

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:39:03 GMT, Jonathan Ball wrote:

> War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.
> The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic
> feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much
> worse. The person who has nothing for which he is
> willing to fight, nothing which is more important than
> his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and
> has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by
> the exertions of better men than himself.
>
> John Stuart Mill

Perhaps, but isn¡¦t passionate intensity without conviction (as WB Yeats
forewarned) a reckless endeavor? It is quite one thing to claim that there
are values and principles worth fighting and dying for. It is quite
another to insinuate that a pacifist holds these values and principles less
dear than anyone else ¡Vat least, that¡¦s the impression that I get reading
this quote. I¡¦m not beneath admitting that perhaps I¡¦m reading too much
into it.

I agree with the author that a life without conviction is indeed empty and
(some would argue) purposeless; but, as Bertrand Russell wrote, ¡§When the
intensity of emotional conviction subsides, a man who is in the habit of
reasoning will search for logical grounds in favour of the belief which he
finds in himself.¡¨ In matters as weighty as war, do we not have a moral
obligation to seek the logical grounds *before* succumbing to the whims of
emotion? It is precisely this failure to check impulsiveness with the
temperance of diplomacy that brings us the likes of Osama Bin Laden.

I see this kind of quasi-patriotic criticism used a lot lately to defend
the foreign (and arguably the domestic) policy of my country¡¦s current
administration, inasmuch as it applies to human rights; however, I would
not go so far as to claim that my country overthrew an Iraqi dictator
*solely* or even primarily for the realization of such lofty goals as
¡§empowering the Iraqi people¡¨ or ¡§buying them a greater measure of freedom
with our superlative exertions¡¨. On the contrary, that is all so much
political icing on the cake, so to speak. Had these end results been my
government¡¦s greatest reason for our intervention in Iraq, I would not only
have supported it, I would have questioned what the hell took so long.
 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill 

Rat & Swan wrote:

>
>
> Jonathan Ball wrote:
>
>> The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing
>> which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable
>> creature,
>
>
> Yeah -- being willing to fight for something is great

No, you wouldn't fight for anything. You are exactly
whom Mill is condemning.
 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill 

Jonathan Ball wrote:
> Rat & Swan wrote:

<snip>
>> Yeah -- being willing to fight for something is great

> No, you wouldn't fight for anything.

Again, a lie. I've fought for a variety of things I believe
in over the years, often against considerable odds ( 300 or so to one in
at least one case; several thousand to 12 in another...). I've never
killed anyone, if that's what you consider so wonderful -- but then,
I don't consider killing people to be the proof of one's moral
courage.

You simply do not understand anything about who I am. That's why
your insults and lies never resemble the truth in any way, and
no one believes them.

Rat
 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill 

Jonathan Ball wrote:

<snip>

> You've never been faced with death.
<snip>

Well, actually, I have, and I still carry the literal scars in my
flesh to prove it. But I didn't panic, and I managed to escape.
That's why I know I do have the physical courage to face physical
threat of death if necessary. It was a good lesson and improved my
self-confidence considerably.

Rat
<snip>
 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill 

Jonathan Ball wrote:

> Rat & Swan wrote:

<snip>

>> Well, actually, I have, and I still carry the literal scars in my
>> flesh to prove it. But I didn't panic, and I managed to escape.
>> That's why I know I do have the physical courage to face physical
>> threat of death if necessary. It was a good lesson and improved my
>> self-confidence considerably.

> More BULLSHIT equivocation. A car accident you caused yourself from
> being drunk does not count.

*snicker* You lie reflexively, jonnie. I have never been drunk
in my life. I've never been injured in a car accident. You see why no
one believes the lies you invent out of whole cloth.

Do tell us about your own heroic war experiences, jonnie. Watch
us laugh....

<snip>

Rat
 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill 

Rat & Swan wrote:

>
>
> Jonathan Ball wrote:
>
>> Rat & Swan wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Yeah -- being willing to fight for something is great
>
>
>> No, you wouldn't fight for anything.
>
>
> Again, a lie. I've fought for a variety of things I believe
> in over the years

Nope. Not for anything big. The second part of Mill's
quote is especially applicable to you:

The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his
own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and
has no chance of being free unless made or kept so
by the exertions of better men than himself.

You are SO OBVIOUSLY a miserable; all the feigned
delight in visits to art galleries displaying
pornography fools no one. You're a zero, you know
you're a zero, and your agony loudly precedes you by
100 miles. You are "...free...by the exertions of
better men than [you]." The knowledge of that makes
you that much more miserable.
 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill 

"Jonathan Ball" <jonball RemoveThis @whitehouse.not> wrote in message
news:u1hOb.14698$zj7.782@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Rat & Swan wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Jonathan Ball wrote:
> >
> >> Rat & Swan wrote:
> >
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>> Yeah -- being willing to fight for something is great
> >
> >
> >> No, you wouldn't fight for anything.
> >
> >
> > Again, a lie. I've fought for a variety of things I believe
> > in over the years
>
> Nope. Not for anything big. The second part of Mill's
> quote is especially applicable to you:
>
> The person who has nothing for which he is willing
> to fight, nothing which is more important than his
> own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and
> has no chance of being free unless made or kept so
> by the exertions of better men than himself.
>
> You are SO OBVIOUSLY a miserable; all the feigned
> delight in visits to art galleries displaying
> pornography fools no one. You're a zero, you know
> you're a zero, and your agony loudly precedes you by
> 100 miles. You are "...free...by the exertions of
> better men than [you]." The knowledge of that makes
> you that much more miserable.

I think you missed the question about *Your* war experiences ~~jonnie~~
>
 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill 

Jonathan Ball wrote:

> Rat & Swan wrote:

<snip>

>> <snip>

>>>> Well, actually, I have, and I still carry the literal scars in my
>>>> flesh to prove it. But I didn't panic, and I managed to escape.
>>>> That's why I know I do have the physical courage to face physical
>>>> threat of death if necessary. It was a good lesson and improved my
>>>> self-confidence considerably.

>>> More BULLSHIT equivocation. A car accident you caused yourself from
>>> being drunk does not count.

>> I have never been drunk in my life.

> I don't believe that.

I suspected you wouldn't. It must be hard for someone like you to
imagine someone who doesn't drink to excess. However, it's true. If
you'd think for a moment, you would know why. But then -- you never do. :)

>> I've never been injured in a car accident.

> Irrelevant.

Except to refute another of your lies.

Let's put back the part you unethically snipped out that IS
> relevant:

> You have not *gone into a conflict* in which you
> knew you would face death.

Goalpost move, jonnie: typical of you, and typically shoddy.
Your earlier post claimed I had never "faced death." I have.
I agreed I'd never killed anyone. There is more than one
way of facing death. I still have scar tissue from my brush
with it. I went into the situation knowing other people had
been killed under the same circumstances, and that death was,
indeed, _possible_ any day. Not terribly likely -- but then,
most days in the Army the soldier doesn't "face death" either.

(btw -- I do have the newspaper clipping to verify my story.)

And where were those stories about your heroic war experiences,
eh, jonnie? When did you face death for any reason, jonnie?

Rat
 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill 

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 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill 

Who can only try to make a point by inventing lie upon lie
about the personal life of his opponents. Sad case, jonnie.

But none of us depends on jonnie for validation of our lives or
characters. We KNOW he's a liar.

Where are jonnie's stories of his heroic war service?

Rat
 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill 

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 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill 

And when were you planning to describe facing death
during your heroic war service, jonnie?

Rat
 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill 

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 >> Stay informed about: Good quote from Mill