Golden Retriever with an odd limp

In article (Steve) writes:
>We have a 5 year old female golden. I have read posts and articles
>all over the web but nothing seems to fit this description - any ideas
>would be appreciated.
>
>She intermittently cannot use her left front paw. The vet has
>articulated all the joints and she shows no signs of any pain. The
>limp is intermittent.

>Thanks -
>
>Steve

Well "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but because
a medical cause has not been found you might want to EXPLORE your
dog's having taught you to attend to her when she stops walking.
Such conditioning is a possibilty if you tend to ignore her
when she is doing OK but attend to her when she has one
of these episodes.

(I could have written that because no physical cause has been
found you might want to explore a psychological cause. But as
a behavior analyst I assume that everything can be understood
in terms of physical events even that which is considered
spiritual.)


To better understand her behavior you might want to
monitor when and where it occurs. Also what comes before
it and, as noted above, what occurs afterwards. If the
behavior is frequent in some setting because you supply
attention then you might want to no longer provide
attention after the behavior in that setting but supply
it after acceptable behavior.

Suppose, you discoverd that the behavior was quite frequent
when you had been walking your dog for 40 min daily. And
you had been attending to your dog after each episode. Then
you would want to change the contingencies in this setting.
You would ignore her (this may be hard because you love her)
when she stops walking but attend to her when she is just fine.
Let's consider this in more detail.

You can be quite systematic about this. First you could
count the number of episodes per 40 min walk. This could
serve as a baseline. Then you could find something that
she likes such as praise, bits of treat, etc. and offer
this to her say after about every minute ("the interval") of
walking. Do this for say for the first 20 min of a walk.
If there are no episodes then for the next 20 min of
walking offer the praise/treats at 2 min intervals.
of successful walking. If this works then offer the
praise/treats every 3 min, etc. during subsequent walks.

If she has an episode do not attend to her. Rather just
wait for her to get up. When she is up then restart the
current interval. If it was set at 3 min then she will
have to walk for 3 min before you deliver.

If the procedure works then you should see a marked
reduction in the number of episodes per 40 min walk
relative to the baseline data.

Of course, these episodes might be more frequent in
some other setting but the general approach would
apply: An episode produces no attention or treats
while acceptable behavior (for so many minutes) does.

--Marshall
 >> Stay informed about: Golden Retriever with an odd limp 

Steve wrote:
> She intermittently cannot use her left front paw. The vet has
> articulated all the joints and she shows no signs of any pain.
...
>We are stumped. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Considering
>selling the house for an MRI. :-)

Waitaminute - you don't mention anything about xrays having
been done. If your vet is suggesting going directly from
a physical exam to MRI without doing xrays first I would
seriously be questioning his/her advice.

How long has the limp been going on? I've been in this
position a couple of times before (intermittent lameness
isn't at all unusual) and if nothing shows up on xrays
usually the presumption is that it's a soft-tissue injury
(sprain, strain, etc.) The usual prescription I've gotten
is rest for 3 weeks - "rest" meaning no exercise whatsoever
except for short trips outside on leash to eliminate. Have
you tried that?

Even if xrays have been done, there still could be an
injury that wasn't seen the first time around - I've had
a couple of friends who've had dogs with fractured legs
and toes that weren't apparent on the first set of films.
So even if her leg has been xrayed already, it might be
a good idea to have them done again, particularly if
they're done by a specialist (see below).

This time of year, I'm also wondering if she might have a
foxtail injury - do you have those in your area? They're
a weed, approximately 1 foot tall, with a head that
resembles that of wheat. They're light green early in
the season and then turn golden before they shed their
seeds, which are nasty nasty threats to dogs - they can
work their way between the toes and travel a long ways
up the leg. If you have them in your area you might
want to ask your vet to rule out that possibility.

Last, I wouldn't hesitate to ask your primary care vet
for a referral to an orthopedic specialist if you're
unhappy with your lack of progress in diagnosing this
problem. Specialists see a much larger variety of issues
in their particular area than a general practice vet
does and very often a specialist can diagnose in one
visit something primary care vet has been unsuccessfully
working up for months.

Good luck, and I hope that helps.

Dianne
 >> Stay informed about: Golden Retriever with an odd limp 

Marshall could be right on this especially if you find nothing else wrong
with her.

I had a cat who as a youngster had landed on a piece of glass when jumping
off a counter and cut his pad really bad. The pad healed ok but he never
forgot the extra attention he got. When he got older if he felt he wasn't
getting enough attention he would hold up his front paw and limp around the
house till I noticed him and made a fuss. The really funny thing was as he
got older he forgot which paw it was and would often choose the wrong one to
hold up but he knew it would get him the attention he wanted.

Celeste



"Marshall Dermer" wrote in message > Well "the
absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but because
> a medical cause has not been found you might want to EXPLORE your
> dog's having taught you to attend to her when she stops walking.
> Such conditioning is a possibilty if you tend to ignore her
> when she is doing OK but attend to her when she has one
> of these episodes.
 >> Stay informed about: Golden Retriever with an odd limp 

yes... we are awaiting the x-ray results. We have a terrific vet.

I was just trying to see if this sounded familiar to anyone

diannes RemoveThis @bolt.sonic.net (diannes) wrote in message ...
> Steve wrote:
> > She intermittently cannot use her left front paw. The vet has
> > articulated all the joints and she shows no signs of any pain.
> ...
> >We are stumped. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Considering
> >selling the house for an MRI. :-)
>
> Waitaminute - you don't mention anything about xrays having
> been done. If your vet is suggesting going directly from
> a physical exam to MRI without doing xrays first I would
> seriously be questioning his/her advice.
>
> How long has the limp been going on? I've been in this
> position a couple of times before (intermittent lameness
> isn't at all unusual) and if nothing shows up on xrays
> usually the presumption is that it's a soft-tissue injury
> (sprain, strain, etc.) The usual prescription I've gotten
> is rest for 3 weeks - "rest" meaning no exercise whatsoever
> except for short trips outside on leash to eliminate. Have
> you tried that?
>
> Even if xrays have been done, there still could be an
> injury that wasn't seen the first time around - I've had
> a couple of friends who've had dogs with fractured legs
> and toes that weren't apparent on the first set of films.
> So even if her leg has been xrayed already, it might be
> a good idea to have them done again, particularly if
> they're done by a specialist (see below).
>
> This time of year, I'm also wondering if she might have a
> foxtail injury - do you have those in your area? They're
> a weed, approximately 1 foot tall, with a head that
> resembles that of wheat. They're light green early in
> the season and then turn golden before they shed their
> seeds, which are nasty nasty threats to dogs - they can
> work their way between the toes and travel a long ways
> up the leg. If you have them in your area you might
> want to ask your vet to rule out that possibility.
>
> Last, I wouldn't hesitate to ask your primary care vet
> for a referral to an orthopedic specialist if you're
> unhappy with your lack of progress in diagnosing this
> problem. Specialists see a much larger variety of issues
> in their particular area than a general practice vet
> does and very often a specialist can diagnose in one
> visit something primary care vet has been unsuccessfully
> working up for months.
>
> Good luck, and I hope that helps.
>
> Dianne
 >> Stay informed about: Golden Retriever with an odd limp 

Marshall-

Interesting suggestion. But it does not fit the circumstances. She
does it in the house, when she is running freely outside, etc. Just
seems to suddenly get lame, and then recover a few minutes later. We
are awaiting x-ray readings.

dermer DeleteThis @alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer) wrote in message ...
> In article (Steve) writes:
> >We have a 5 year old female golden. I have read posts and articles
> >all over the web but nothing seems to fit this description - any ideas
> >would be appreciated.
> >
> >She intermittently cannot use her left front paw. The vet has
> >articulated all the joints and she shows no signs of any pain. The
> >limp is intermittent.
>
> >Thanks -
> >
> >Steve
>
> Well "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but because
> a medical cause has not been found you might want to EXPLORE your
> dog's having taught you to attend to her when she stops walking.
> Such conditioning is a possibilty if you tend to ignore her
> when she is doing OK but attend to her when she has one
> of these episodes.
>
> (I could have written that because no physical cause has been
> found you might want to explore a psychological cause. But as
> a behavior analyst I assume that everything can be understood
> in terms of physical events even that which is considered
> spiritual.)
>
>
> To better understand her behavior you might want to
> monitor when and where it occurs. Also what comes before
> it and, as noted above, what occurs afterwards. If the
> behavior is frequent in some setting because you supply
> attention then you might want to no longer provide
> attention after the behavior in that setting but supply
> it after acceptable behavior.
>
> Suppose, you discoverd that the behavior was quite frequent
> when you had been walking your dog for 40 min daily. And
> you had been attending to your dog after each episode. Then
> you would want to change the contingencies in this setting.
> You would ignore her (this may be hard because you love her)
> when she stops walking but attend to her when she is just fine.
> Let's consider this in more detail.
>
> You can be quite systematic about this. First you could
> count the number of episodes per 40 min walk. This could
> serve as a baseline. Then you could find something that
> she likes such as praise, bits of treat, etc. and offer
> this to her say after about every minute ("the interval") of
> walking. Do this for say for the first 20 min of a walk.
> If there are no episodes then for the next 20 min of
> walking offer the praise/treats at 2 min intervals.
> of successful walking. If this works then offer the
> praise/treats every 3 min, etc. during subsequent walks.
>
> If she has an episode do not attend to her. Rather just
> wait for her to get up. When she is up then restart the
> current interval. If it was set at 3 min then she will
> have to walk for 3 min before you deliver.
>
> If the procedure works then you should see a marked
> reduction in the number of episodes per 40 min walk
> relative to the baseline data.
>
> Of course, these episodes might be more frequent in
> some other setting but the general approach would
> apply: An episode produces no attention or treats
> while acceptable behavior (for so many minutes) does.
>
> --Marshall
 >> Stay informed about: Golden Retriever with an odd limp