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Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth

 
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ta

External


Since: Jun 29, 2003
Posts: 19



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:27 pm
Post subject: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth
Archived from groups: alt>animals>ethics>vegetarian, others (more info?)

Basically, the popular story that has been propagated in our culture for
centuries that the first humans were big, bad, mighty hunters is probably a
big, bad, mighty myth. We all know the story . . . hairy, brawny cavemen
hauling a big dead animal with one hand and dragging a woman (the other
conquered beast) with the other. The real story is likely a whole lot
different, and perhaps a whole lot less dramatic for those with a vested
interested in cultivating the myth (note: this is not a "conspiracy
theory").

I suppose if we only studied the far northern tribes where plant life was
not abundant and hunting was the primary means of survival, we might be able
to craft such a story. But these cultures are relatively recent ones and
don't help much in understanding the habits of our original descendants much
further south. Even so, it is likely that *intentional* hunting did not
surface until around 20,000 years ago, well into the story of human
evolution.

The original humans were foragers, probably eating as much as 80 percent
plants, nuts and seeds while occasionally and quite accidentally stumbling
upon a lizard or an egg, and animal carcasses. Organized hunting came much,
much later. In other words, the first humans were not the violent, beastly,
predators we've heard so much about, particularly from the right-wing,
social darwinist crowd who have used this myth to justify the unethical and
unnatural behaviours associated with the "dog eat dog" world of modern
business/industrialism/war.

One of the reasons early humans may have taken up hunting was in an attempt
to counter the power balance which probably tilted toward women. Women in
primal society were viewed as capturing the very essence of power in the
natural world: the ability to give life (keep in mind that early man may not
have yet discovered his role in this whole reproductive process, and
therefore the feelings of insecurity). Even the conservative anthropologist
Robin Fox hints at this:

"Women participated in the natural world through childbirth; men stood apart
from the natural world, mostly through the hunt and war. Women created life;
men destroyed it. A good deal of the male religion involved a careful
attempt, through hunt rituals and scalp ceremonies, to restore this
balance." (from "Encounter with Anthropology").

Men, in other words, gained power by stripping power from other living
creatures in the natural world. Animals were viewed as mystical, mysterious,
and powerful in the primal word.

But this unnatural behaviour and it's perceived power did not come without a
heavy psychological price. Early hunters felt a great deal of guilt about
killing animals -- animals that were, like humans, *part of* nature, not
separate entities from nature.

From James Serpell's "In the Company of Animals":

"Although it varies in detail from place to place, the undercurrent of guilt
and the need for some form of atonement for animal slaughter is common among
hunting people. In certain African tribes, for example, hunters are obliged
to undergo ceremonial acts of purification in order to remove the stain of
murder from their consciences."

This is certainly consistent with our modern modes of animal production,
where thousands of animals are enclosed in big buildings, hidden away from
common view, and slaughterhouses are certainly not places to take the kids
for a weekend jaunt. We like the taste of meat, but most of us sure don't
want to be involved with it's capture, killing, and preparation.

So why has the myth been so dominant? Probably for a number of reasons, but
mostly sheer human nature. It's a convenient story propagated by
male-dominated culture (and anthropology) and it makes for a cool story for
the popular press. Frankly, we see what we want to see and for the people in
charge of influencing and creating history (organized religion, philosophy
(descartes, bacon), anthropology -- all male dominated), it works to their
advantage. Conspiracy? Of course not. Convenience? Probably. In addition,
cultural values, once embedded, take hold and grow roots and are very
difficult to change. We stick with what works and we learn what we've been
taught, and frankly, we don't like our traditions and beliefs challenged, no
matter how seemingly irrational or destructive. This is not to say hunting
and killing animals did not play an important role in human evolution. But
that role may have very well been quite different from the one we're used to
hearing about, and the exaggerated, enhanced version of history we've come
to see on the movie screen and in our history books may not be the "real
story".

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ta

External


Since: Jun 29, 2003
Posts: 19



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

<snip>

> Perhaps "like other human supremacists from the Anti camp...." you
> can't resist trying to stick your opponents into neat little
> negative categories so you can (to use one of jonnie's favorite
> terms) marginalize them. Try dealing with Mason as an individual,
> not some stereotype you think he fits.

Bingo. It's the Rush Limbaugh tactic . . . create a word or phrase that
neatly categorizes the negative elements of a particular group and keep
using that word or phrase over and over again until it sticks. It's handy
for people like Rush who lack the ability to counter the evidence with
intelligent responses - whenever someone disagrees with him, they get
dismissed as a "liberal". It's the same here, as you have pointed out. Don't
like a point of view? Well he must be a "leftist", or "liberal", or
"luddite", or "vegan" or . . . you get the drift.

Unfortunately, these people lack the emotional intelligence to carry on a
civil discussion, which is why wasting time trying to be reasonable with
them is not an intelligent use of one's time.

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Dutch

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Since: Jul 02, 2003
Posts: 1110



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"ta" <ta33.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote

<snip>

Ouch! No indication to whom you're responding?

> > Perhaps "like other human supremacists from the Anti camp...." you
> > can't resist trying to stick your opponents into neat little
> > negative categories so you can (to use one of jonnie's favorite
> > terms) marginalize them. Try dealing with Mason as an individual,
> > not some stereotype you think he fits.
>
> Bingo. It's the Rush Limbaugh tactic . . . create a word or phrase that
> neatly categorizes the negative elements of a particular group and keep
> using that word or phrase over and over again until it sticks. It's handy
> for people like Rush who lack the ability to counter the evidence with
> intelligent responses - whenever someone disagrees with him, they get
> dismissed as a "liberal". It's the same here, as you have pointed out.
Don't
> like a point of view? Well he must be a "leftist", or "liberal", or
> "luddite", or "vegan" or . . . you get the drift.
>
> Unfortunately, these people lack the emotional intelligence to carry on a
> civil discussion, which is why wasting time trying to be reasonable with
> them is not an intelligent use of one's time.

She neatly categorizes people with terms like "anti" and "meatarian", among
others not to mention "human supremacists", I guess she lacks "emotional
intelligence" too.

Isn't "emotional retard" a pigeonhole you have just created?
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Rat & Swan

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Since: Oct 26, 2003
Posts: 313



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Dutch wrote:

<snip>


> She neatly categorizes people with terms like "anti" and "meatarian", among
> others not to mention "human supremacists", I guess she lacks "emotional
> intelligence" too.

Little slow on the uptake, eh, Dutch? That was sarcasm, which was why
I put the phrase in quotes. (I've never used the term "meatarian").

<snip>

Rat
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rick etter

External


Since: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 280



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"ta" <ta33 DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:pfsyb.1414$e7.1109@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> <snip>
>
> > Perhaps "like other human supremacists from the Anti camp...." you
> > can't resist trying to stick your opponents into neat little
> > negative categories so you can (to use one of jonnie's favorite
> > terms) marginalize them. Try dealing with Mason as an individual,
> > not some stereotype you think he fits.
>
> Bingo. It's the Rush Limbaugh tactic . . . create a word or phrase that
> neatly categorizes the negative elements of a particular group and keep
> using that word or phrase over and over again until it sticks. It's handy
> for people like Rush who lack the ability to counter the evidence with
> intelligent responses - whenever someone disagrees with him, they get
> dismissed as a "liberal". It's the same here, as you have pointed out.
Don't
> like a point of view? Well he must be a "leftist", or "liberal", or
> "luddite", or "vegan" or . . . you get the drift.
>
> Unfortunately, these people lack the emotional intelligence to carry on a
> civil discussion, which is why wasting time trying to be reasonable with
> them is not an intelligent use of one's time.
========================
ROTFLMAO What a hoot!!! This form the side that wishes people dead when we
disagree with them!

You really are just too much. Much too stupid. Much too dogmatic. Much
too delusional...

besides, veganism isn't an intelligent use of ones time anyway...


>
>
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usual suspect

External


Since: Nov 13, 2003
Posts: 354



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

duh wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> Perhaps "like other human supremacists from the Anti camp...." you
>> can't resist trying to stick your opponents into neat little
>> negative categories so you can (to use one of jonnie's favorite
>> terms) marginalize them. Try dealing with Mason as an individual,
>> not some stereotype you think he fits.
>
>
> Bingo. It's the Rush Limbaugh tactic . . . create a word or phrase that
> neatly categorizes the negative elements of a particular group and keep
> using that word or phrase over and over again until it sticks. It's handy
> for people like Rush who lack the ability to counter the evidence with
> intelligent responses - whenever someone disagrees with him, they get
> dismissed as a "liberal". It's the same here, as you have pointed out. Don't
> like a point of view? Well he must be a "leftist", or "liberal", or
> "luddite", or "vegan" or . . . you get the drift.

Unfortunately for you, I've used specific facts and examples to back up
my disagreements with others. We use words for a number of reasons. The
use of "liberal," "Luddite," or "veg-n" conveys a specific meaning.
After all, why do you call yourself a veg-n?

> Unfortunately, these people lack the emotional intelligence to carry on a
> civil discussion,

You lack the academic intelligence to carry out a meaningful discussion.

> which is why wasting time trying to be reasonable with
> them is not an intelligent use of one's time.

You have no credible response to facts, so you run and hide.
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Rat & Swan

External


Since: Oct 26, 2003
Posts: 313



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

usual suspect wrote:

<snip>

> Unfortunately for you,

Unfortunately for you, you haven't -- and I note you haven't yet
answered my post.

> I've used specific facts and examples to back up
> my disagreements with others. We use words for a number of reasons. The
> use of "liberal," "Luddite," or "veg-n" conveys a specific meaning.
> After all, why do you call yourself a veg-n?

And why should you call me a luddite? I've given no indication I want
to destroy technology, or oppose technology when properly used. I've
just said that a high level of technology in itself does not make a
culture's ideas more or less valuable. Since you hold to a literalist
interpretation of the bible, I assume you agree with that.

<snip>
> You have no credible response to facts, so you run and hide.

Hmmm....

Rat
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Bill

External


Since: Sep 04, 2003
Posts: 82



(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Rat & Swan wrote:

>
>
> usual suspect wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>>> From Library Journal
>>>> This is one of a number of recent books that trace both
>>>> environmental destruction and social oppression to the Western
>>>> world view
>
>
>>>> Sentence should end there. Mason is a leftist prat whose
>>>> anti-capitalist views make everything Western "wrong."
>
>
>>> But an opposition to "the" (make that "a" or "various" ) Western world
>>> views is not necessarily anti-capitalist. Some of the worst ecological
>>> destruction has taken place in areas controlled by anti-capitalist
>>> regimes, such as the former Soviet territories. The worldview Mason
>>> means, I suspect, could better be described as a relic of the Victorian
>>> faith in progress and technology, and man's unique status above and
>>> outside the rest of nature.
>
>
>> Perhaps, but like other misanthropes from the Ivory Towers,
>
>
> Perhaps "like other human supremacists from the Anti camp...." you
> can't resist trying to stick your opponents into neat little
> negative categories so you can (to use one of jonnie's favorite
> terms) marginalize them.

The marginalization is all SELF marginalization. The
marginals - you - willingly occupy tiny marginalized
niches. It's mental illness, without question.
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Bill

External


Since: Sep 04, 2003
Posts: 82



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Rat & Swan wrote:

>
>
> Dutch wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>> She neatly categorizes people with terms like "anti" and "meatarian",
>> among
>> others not to mention "human supremacists", I guess she lacks "emotional
>> intelligence" too.
>
>
> Little slow on the uptake, eh, Dutch? That was sarcasm

Bullshit. It's exactly your view. Use of quotation
marks is not a convention for indicating sarcasm.
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Bill

External


Since: Sep 04, 2003
Posts: 82



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Rat & Swan wrote:


>> No, it's mostly colorful sophistry, strawmen, and mythology
>> masquerading as academic insight. His examples are specious, and his
>> insights are flawed by illogic and the paradigm of the primitive.
>
>
> ipse dixit -- some examples, please.

As always, you misuse the term "ipse dixit". You do
not know what it means.
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Bill

External


Since: Sep 04, 2003
Posts: 82



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 7:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Rat & Swan wrote:

>
>
> usual suspect wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Unfortunately for you,
>
>
> Unfortunately for you, you haven't -- and I note you haven't yet
> answered my post.
>
>> I've used specific facts and examples to back up my disagreements with
>> others. We use words for a number of reasons. The use of "liberal,"
>> "Luddite," or "veg-n" conveys a specific meaning. After all, why do
>> you call yourself a veg-n?
>
>
> And why should you call me a luddite?

Because meet all the objective criteria.
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usual suspect

External


Since: Nov 13, 2003
Posts: 354



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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pRattle & Sw0on wrote:
>> Unfortunately for you,
>
> Unfortunately for you, you haven't

Yes, I did.

> -- and I note you haven't yet
> answered my post.

Which one would that be?

>> I've used specific facts and examples to back up my disagreements with
>> others. We use words for a number of reasons. The use of "liberal,"
>> "Luddite," or "veg-n" conveys a specific meaning. After all, why do
>> you call yourself a veg-n?
>
> And why should you call me a luddite?

The shoe fits.

> I've given no indication I want
> to destroy technology, or oppose technology when properly used.

Your little qualification is your shoe. It fits.

> I've
> just said that a high level of technology in itself does not make a
> culture's ideas more or less valuable. Since you hold to a literalist
> interpretation of the bible,

Where have I said what I believe?

> I assume you agree with that.

Ever see Walter Matthau in "Bad News Bears"?

>> You have no credible response to facts, so you run and hide.
>
> Hmmm....

Yes?
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Rat & Swan

External


Since: Oct 26, 2003
Posts: 313



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:48 pm
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usual suspect wrote:

> Rat wrote:

>> -- and I note you haven't yet answered my post.

> Which one would that be?

The one from 11/30 which discussed Mason and "primitive"
cultures.

<snip>
>> And why should you call me a luddite?

> The shoe fits.

>> I've given no indication I want
>> to destroy technology, or oppose technology when properly used.

> Your little qualification is your shoe. It fits.

So you support technology when improperly used? Anything is
O.K., as long as it involves use of modern machinery and
industrial/technological stuff? The attack on 9/11 was just
dandy because it involved an airplane?

Of course one has to qualify the use of technology -- it is
a tool, anything from a flaked handaxe to a modern space
shuttle to a bomb. A hammer is a form of technology, but a
hammer becomes technology misused when someone uses it to
murder someone else by whacking him on the head with it.

>> I've
>> just said that a high level of technology in itself does not make a
>> culture's ideas more or less valuable. Since you hold to a literalist
>> interpretation of the bible,

> Where have I said what I believe?

Where you claimed the bible could not be illuminated by the Holy
Spirit or our interpretation of the text change over time.

>> I assume you agree with that.

> Ever see Walter Matthau in "Bad News Bears"?

No.

<snip>

Rat
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usual suspect

External


Since: Nov 13, 2003
Posts: 354



(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Man the Mighty Hunter" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Rat & Swan wrote:
>>> -- and I note you haven't yet answered my post.
>
>> Which one would that be?
>
> The one from 11/30 which discussed Mason and "primitive"
> cultures.

I'll Google it later. I've replied to every post from you that I got off
my server.

> <snip>
>
>>> And why should you call me a luddite?
>
>> The shoe fits.
>
>
>>> I've given no indication I want
>>> to destroy technology, or oppose technology when properly used.
>
>> Your little qualification is your shoe. It fits.
>
> So you support technology when improperly used? Anything is
> O.K., as long as it involves use of modern machinery and
> industrial/technological stuff?

I don't determine proper/improper use. I do distinguish between crimes
like murder, but means are irrelevant.

> The attack on 9/11 was just
> dandy because it involved an airplane?

It was wrong for a whole lot of reasons, none of which are technological
in nature.

> Of course one has to qualify the use of technology -- it is
> a tool, anything from a flaked handaxe to a modern space
> shuttle to a bomb. A hammer is a form of technology, but a
> hammer becomes technology misused when someone uses it to
> murder someone else by whacking him on the head with it.

Irrelevant comparison. Technology is neutral.

>>> I've
>>> just said that a high level of technology in itself does not make a
>>> culture's ideas more or less valuable. Since you hold to a literalist
>>> interpretation of the bible,
>
>> Where have I said what I believe?
>
> Where you claimed the bible could not be illuminated by the Holy
> Spirit or our interpretation of the text change over time.

I think you better go back and read what I actually wrote before you
stick words like THOSE in my mouth. I think I only took exception to
your statement that the Holy Spirit was behind your church's radical and
novel interpretations of Scripture. Your positions (AR, homosexuality)
are *not* an evolution of various interpretations, they are *novel* --
and in order to get to your *radical* positions, one must dismiss
Scripture altogether (e.g., Hyland's redactions, dismissing all of the
Pauline references to homosexuality, Jude 7, etc.).

>>> I assume you agree with that.
>
>> Ever see Walter Matthau in "Bad News Bears"?
>
> No.

ASSUME... don't make an ASS out of U or ME.
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Jonathan Ball

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Since: Jul 10, 2003
Posts: 869



(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 9:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Dispelling the "Karen Winter knows what's going on" Myth [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Rat & Swan wrote:
>
>
> Jonnie, of course I knew about what was "going on" in the Anglican
> communion -- anyone with access to Anglican publications and
> websites knew about it.

No, you didn't. You only knew about your minority
status, not about the impending schism. Stop lying.

> To agree with equality within the church has nothing to do with
> "racism" either.

You aren't agreeing with "equality", liar; that's
merely the language of the papering over. What you are
doing is badly concealing your racist disdain for the
mostly third world condemnation of your church's
intellectual and theological bankruptcy: your turning
away from scripture.

> There are conservative dioceses in the West
> who wish to break ties with Robinson's diocese; there are clergy
> in non-Western countries who accept Robinson's elevation, like
> Archbishop Njongonkulu Ndungane of Cape Town and retired Bishop
> Christopher Ssenyonjo of Uganda. The split is not strictly along
> East-West or white-non-white lines.

It is *largely* along those lines, liar, something you
didn't know of until I clued you in with the Jenkins
article.
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