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Since: Nov 08, 2006 Posts: 6
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(Msg. 31) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:34 am
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: uk>business>agriculture, others (more info?)
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BAC wrote:
> > Because if you do not, you lose species/races/sub-species/variants that
> are
> > specific to where you live or which are endangered globally.
> > There is not much that is endemic to the UK but what is, is precious.
>
> But why is it 'precious'?
Geographically specific biodiversity is precious in the same way as
one's own family and friends are precious. There are billions more
people in the world, but one only has one family and a few friends.
Once they are gone, they cannot be replaced and one's life is the
poorer for their loss.
Lunatic fringe groups such as AfA argue that because S vulgaris is not
endangered in Europe and Asia there is no need to protect it in
Britain. By that logic, we should refuse to intervene to prevent the
murder of our children because "H. sapiens is not an endangered species
globally, so the death of a few individuals in one small part of the
world is not important".
I'm off to check my squirrel traps. >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Nov 08, 2006 Posts: 6
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(Msg. 32) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:12 am
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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BAC wrote:
> Would the genetic diversity of naturalised phenotypes of originally 'alien'
> species be equally 'precious'?
In short, no.
Few tears would be shed if the American mink which does so much damage
both to native wildlife and to domestic poultry, Japanese knotweed,
Himalayan balsam to name just three, were eradicated. These are all
introduced species which have no natural predators here and which have
thus been able to spread unchecked. I don't know how much of a threat
the two plants are considered to be to native biodiversity, but mink
(escaped from fur farms or released by criminally reckless or stupid
animal rights 'activists' who acted with no thought at all for the
impact of their actions on the native wildlife) are a major problem.
The underlying truth here is that species evolve to fill a certain
ecological niche. When they are transplanted from one ecosystem to
another they can, and often do, cause untold damage (pigs, cats and
rats in the Indian Ocean, for example the fate of the dodo). There can
be no excuses, we are intelligent beings who pride ourselves on being
able to think strategically and act in order to bring about certain
outcomes. We know (or at least, those of us who are awake know) that
AGS (American/alien grey squirrels) are a problem and a threat to many
native species, not solely S vulgaris (what an awful name for such an
attractive creature). It is now beholden upon us to act to mitigate or
even eliminate that threat as quickly, effectively, and above all, as
humanely as possible. >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Nov 12, 2006 Posts: 8
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(Msg. 33) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:06 am
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: uk>business>agriculture, others (more info?)
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"BAC" <casswalk DeleteThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1163347897.26791.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
>
> "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:WfD5h.15919$j7.333599@news.indigo.ie...
>>
>> "BAC" <casswalk DeleteThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:1163246438.12003.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
>> >
>> > "Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> > news:SI55h.19312$r4.11567@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> >>
>> >> > In article <1163015802.7617.1 DeleteThis @damia.uk.clara.net>,
>> >> > BAC <casswalk DeleteThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Can you please explain why you believe "we need to preserve our
> native
>> >> >> wildlife"?
>> >>
>> >> Grey squirrels are NOT our native wildlife, they were imported from
>> >> the
>> >> americas by some idiot who then released them into the wild.
>> >>
>> >
>> > I'm surprised at you, merrily crossposting like this.
>> >
>> > I'm well aware of the fact grey squirrels are a 'naturalised' species,
> as
>> > opposed to one which was indigenous here, thanks - my original question
>> > was
>> > aimed at finding out why the OP believed that there was a need to
> preserve
>> > 'native' wildlife.
>>
>> Because if you do not, you lose species/races/sub-species/variants that
> are
>> specific to where you live or which are endangered globally.
>> There is not much that is endemic to the UK but what is, is precious.
>
> But why is it 'precious'?
Because it is impossible to replace genetic diversity once lost.
>
> >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Sep 17, 2006 Posts: 32
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(Msg. 34) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: uk>business>agriculture, others (more info?)
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On 13 Nov 2006 04:34:44 -0800, "Gwyddno" <Ieithgi RemoveThis @googlemail.com>
wrote:
>BAC wrote:
>
>
>> > Because if you do not, you lose species/races/sub-species/variants that
>> are
>> > specific to where you live or which are endangered globally.
>> > There is not much that is endemic to the UK but what is, is precious.
>>
>> But why is it 'precious'?
>
>Geographically specific biodiversity is precious in the same way as
>one's own family and friends are precious. There are billions more
>people in the world, but one only has one family and a few friends.
>Once they are gone, they cannot be replaced and one's life is the
>poorer for their loss.
>
>Lunatic fringe groups such as AfA argue that because S vulgaris is not
>endangered in Europe and Asia there is no need to protect it in
>Britain. By that logic, we should refuse to intervene to prevent the
>murder of our children because "H. sapiens is not an endangered species
>globally, so the death of a few individuals in one small part of the
>world is not important".
>
>I'm off to check my squirrel traps.
Prat. >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003 Posts: 61
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(Msg. 35) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: uk>business>agriculture, others (more info?)
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"Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4558514a$0$17737$ba620d2c@reader.news.heanet.ie...
>
> "BAC" <casswalk RemoveThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1163347897.26791.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
> >
> > "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:WfD5h.15919$j7.333599@news.indigo.ie...
> >>
> >> "BAC" <casswalk RemoveThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:1163246438.12003.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
> >> >
> >> > "Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:SI55h.19312$r4.11567@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >> >>
> >> >> > In article <1163015802.7617.1 RemoveThis @damia.uk.clara.net>,
> >> >> > BAC <casswalk RemoveThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Can you please explain why you believe "we need to preserve our
> > native
> >> >> >> wildlife"?
> >> >>
> >> >> Grey squirrels are NOT our native wildlife, they were imported from
> >> >> the
> >> >> americas by some idiot who then released them into the wild.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > I'm surprised at you, merrily crossposting like this.
> >> >
> >> > I'm well aware of the fact grey squirrels are a 'naturalised'
species,
> > as
> >> > opposed to one which was indigenous here, thanks - my original
question
> >> > was
> >> > aimed at finding out why the OP believed that there was a need to
> > preserve
> >> > 'native' wildlife.
> >>
> >> Because if you do not, you lose species/races/sub-species/variants that
> > are
> >> specific to where you live or which are endangered globally.
> >> There is not much that is endemic to the UK but what is, is precious.
> >
> > But why is it 'precious'?
>
> Because it is impossible to replace genetic diversity once lost.
>
So it's genetic diversity which is 'precious'? Why is that?
Would the genetic diversity of naturalised phenotypes of originally 'alien'
species be equally 'precious'? >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003 Posts: 61
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(Msg. 36) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: uk>business>agriculture, others (more info?)
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"Gwyddno" <Ieithgi.RemoveThis@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1163421284.064804.88240@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> BAC wrote:
>
>
> > > Because if you do not, you lose species/races/sub-species/variants
that
> > are
> > > specific to where you live or which are endangered globally.
> > > There is not much that is endemic to the UK but what is, is precious.
> >
> > But why is it 'precious'?
>
> Geographically specific biodiversity is precious in the same way as
> one's own family and friends are precious. There are billions more
> people in the world, but one only has one family and a few friends.
> Once they are gone, they cannot be replaced and one's life is the
> poorer for their loss.
I'm not sure I follow that argument. One is poorer for the loss of family
and friends, I suppose, because one has developed an emotional attachment to
them. Are you suggesting that the reason native wildlife is precious is
because we might feel some sort of emotional attachment to it?
>
> Lunatic fringe groups such as AfA argue that because S vulgaris is not
> endangered in Europe and Asia there is no need to protect it in
> Britain. By that logic, we should refuse to intervene to prevent the
> murder of our children because "H. sapiens is not an endangered species
> globally, so the death of a few individuals in one small part of the
> world is not important".
Our decisions regarding the survival of our own children are driven,
presumably, by the evolutionary imperative to ensure the continuation of our
own contribution to the gene pool. That doesn't apply to our decisions
concerning individual members of other species, unless, of course, we have
an emotional bond to them and act as if they were part of an extended
(human) family set-up.
Such feelings of attachment, of course, do not have to be confined to
individual members of 'native' species.
> I'm off to check my squirrel traps.
> >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Nov 07, 2006 Posts: 28
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(Msg. 37) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: talk>politics>animals, others (more info?)
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"Geoff" <g23434ssd DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5nqgl2p3ici36fn1m76k8lat34q8nlofia@4ax.com...
> On 13 Nov 2006 04:34:44 -0800, "Gwyddno" <Ieithgi DeleteThis @googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>BAC wrote:
>>
>>
>>> > Because if you do not, you lose species/races/sub-species/variants
>>> > that
>>> are
>>> > specific to where you live or which are endangered globally.
>>> > There is not much that is endemic to the UK but what is, is precious.
>>>
>>> But why is it 'precious'?
>>
>>Geographically specific biodiversity is precious in the same way as
>>one's own family and friends are precious. There are billions more
>>people in the world, but one only has one family and a few friends.
>>Once they are gone, they cannot be replaced and one's life is the
>>poorer for their loss.
>>
>>Lunatic fringe groups such as AfA argue that because S vulgaris is not
>>endangered in Europe and Asia there is no need to protect it in
>>Britain. By that logic, we should refuse to intervene to prevent the
>>murder of our children because "H. sapiens is not an endangered species
>>globally, so the death of a few individuals in one small part of the
>>world is not important".
>>
>>I'm off to check my squirrel traps.
>
cleaned the finger prints off your spade yet pete >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Nov 12, 2006 Posts: 8
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(Msg. 38) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: uk>business>agriculture, others (more info?)
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"BAC" <casswalk.RemoveThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1163424958.21542.0@proxy02.news.clara.net...
>
> "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4558514a$0$17737$ba620d2c@reader.news.heanet.ie...
>>
>> "BAC" <casswalk.RemoveThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:1163347897.26791.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
>> >
>> > "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:WfD5h.15919$j7.333599@news.indigo.ie...
>> >>
>> >> "BAC" <casswalk.RemoveThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >> news:1163246438.12003.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
>> >> >
>> >> > "Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> >> > news:SI55h.19312$r4.11567@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > In article <1163015802.7617.1.RemoveThis@damia.uk.clara.net>,
>> >> >> > BAC <casswalk.RemoveThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Can you please explain why you believe "we need to preserve our
>> > native
>> >> >> >> wildlife"?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Grey squirrels are NOT our native wildlife, they were imported from
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> americas by some idiot who then released them into the wild.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm surprised at you, merrily crossposting like this.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm well aware of the fact grey squirrels are a 'naturalised'
> species,
>> > as
>> >> > opposed to one which was indigenous here, thanks - my original
> question
>> >> > was
>> >> > aimed at finding out why the OP believed that there was a need to
>> > preserve
>> >> > 'native' wildlife.
>> >>
>> >> Because if you do not, you lose species/races/sub-species/variants
>> >> that
>> > are
>> >> specific to where you live or which are endangered globally.
>> >> There is not much that is endemic to the UK but what is, is precious.
>> >
>> > But why is it 'precious'?
>>
>> Because it is impossible to replace genetic diversity once lost.
>>
>
> So it's genetic diversity which is 'precious'? Why is that?
>
> Would the genetic diversity of naturalised phenotypes of originally
> 'alien'
> species be equally 'precious'?
Squirrels are abundant here, there and everywhere; if you lost all the UK
ones, you lose a tiny amount of genetic diversity (they all originated from
a few releasees); you still have the bulk of their genetic diversity back in
the US.
If you lose native stuff, you lose more diversity;
if you lose endemic stuff, you lose it for good.
Grey squirrels are not precious in the UK, no matter what way you try to
twist it.
>
> >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Nov 12, 2006 Posts: 8
|
(Msg. 39) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
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"Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45587d86$0$17733$ba620d2c@reader.news.heanet.ie...
>
> "BAC" <casswalk.DeleteThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1163424958.21542.0@proxy02.news.clara.net...
>>
>> "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4558514a$0$17737$ba620d2c@reader.news.heanet.ie...
>>>
>>> "BAC" <casswalk.DeleteThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:1163347897.26791.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
>>> >
>>> > "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> > news:WfD5h.15919$j7.333599@news.indigo.ie...
>>> >>
>>> >> "BAC" <casswalk.DeleteThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> >> news:1163246438.12003.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
>>> >> >
>>> >> > "Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>> >> > news:SI55h.19312$r4.11567@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > In article <1163015802.7617.1.DeleteThis@damia.uk.clara.net>,
>>> >> >> > BAC <casswalk.DeleteThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> Can you please explain why you believe "we need to preserve our
>>> > native
>>> >> >> >> wildlife"?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Grey squirrels are NOT our native wildlife, they were imported
>>> >> >> from
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >> americas by some idiot who then released them into the wild.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I'm surprised at you, merrily crossposting like this.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I'm well aware of the fact grey squirrels are a 'naturalised'
>> species,
>>> > as
>>> >> > opposed to one which was indigenous here, thanks - my original
>> question
>>> >> > was
>>> >> > aimed at finding out why the OP believed that there was a need to
>>> > preserve
>>> >> > 'native' wildlife.
>>> >>
>>> >> Because if you do not, you lose species/races/sub-species/variants
>>> >> that
>>> > are
>>> >> specific to where you live or which are endangered globally.
>>> >> There is not much that is endemic to the UK but what is, is precious.
>>> >
>>> > But why is it 'precious'?
>>>
>>> Because it is impossible to replace genetic diversity once lost.
>>>
>>
>> So it's genetic diversity which is 'precious'? Why is that?
>>
>> Would the genetic diversity of naturalised phenotypes of originally
>> 'alien'
>> species be equally 'precious'?
>
> Squirrels are abundant here, there and everywhere; if you lost all the UK
apologies; make that Grey Squirrels in the line above
> ones, you lose a tiny amount of genetic diversity (they all originated
> from a few releasees); you still have the bulk of their genetic diversity
> back in the US.
> If you lose native stuff, you lose more diversity;
> if you lose endemic stuff, you lose it for good.
> Grey squirrels are not precious in the UK, no matter what way you try to
> twist it.
>
>
>>
>>
>
> >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003 Posts: 61
|
(Msg. 40) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
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"Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45587d86$0$17733$ba620d2c@reader.news.heanet.ie...
>
> "BAC" <casswalk DeleteThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1163424958.21542.0@proxy02.news.clara.net...
> >
> > "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:4558514a$0$17737$ba620d2c@reader.news.heanet.ie...
> >>
> >> "BAC" <casswalk DeleteThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:1163347897.26791.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
> >> >
> >> > "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:WfD5h.15919$j7.333599@news.indigo.ie...
> >> >>
> >> >> "BAC" <casswalk DeleteThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> >> news:1163246438.12003.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:SI55h.19312$r4.11567@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > In article <1163015802.7617.1 DeleteThis @damia.uk.clara.net>,
> >> >> >> > BAC <casswalk DeleteThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> Can you please explain why you believe "we need to preserve
our
> >> > native
> >> >> >> >> wildlife"?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Grey squirrels are NOT our native wildlife, they were imported
from
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> americas by some idiot who then released them into the wild.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'm surprised at you, merrily crossposting like this.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'm well aware of the fact grey squirrels are a 'naturalised'
> > species,
> >> > as
> >> >> > opposed to one which was indigenous here, thanks - my original
> > question
> >> >> > was
> >> >> > aimed at finding out why the OP believed that there was a need to
> >> > preserve
> >> >> > 'native' wildlife.
> >> >>
> >> >> Because if you do not, you lose species/races/sub-species/variants
> >> >> that
> >> > are
> >> >> specific to where you live or which are endangered globally.
> >> >> There is not much that is endemic to the UK but what is, is
precious.
> >> >
> >> > But why is it 'precious'?
> >>
> >> Because it is impossible to replace genetic diversity once lost.
> >>
> >
> > So it's genetic diversity which is 'precious'? Why is that?
You haven't answered the main question I have been asking - why do you
believe the genetic diversity of native wildlife to be 'precious'?
> >
> > Would the genetic diversity of naturalised phenotypes of originally
> > 'alien'
> > species be equally 'precious'?
>
> Squirrels are abundant here, there and everywhere; if you lost all the UK
> ones, you lose a tiny amount of genetic diversity (they all originated
from
> a few releasees); you still have the bulk of their genetic diversity back
in
> the US.
> If you lose native stuff, you lose more diversity;
> if you lose endemic stuff, you lose it for good.
> Grey squirrels are not precious in the UK, no matter what way you try to
> twist it.
>
I'm not trying to twist anything, I'm just genuinely interested in people's
reasoning for supposing that red squirrels and other 'native' species are
'precious', whilst grey squirrels and other naturalised species aren't. To
date, no-one has come up with a convincing explanation other than that it is
simply an arbitrary opinion or preference. >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 46
|
(Msg. 41) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: uk>business>agriculture, others (more info?)
|
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On 13 Nov 2006 09:12:26 -0800, "Gwyddno" <Ieithgi.DeleteThis@googlemail.com>
wrote:
>
>BAC wrote:
>
>
>> Would the genetic diversity of naturalised phenotypes of originally 'alien'
>> species be equally 'precious'?
>
>In short, no.
>
>Few tears would be shed if the American mink which does so much damage
>both to native wildlife and to domestic poultry, Japanese knotweed,
>Himalayan balsam to name just three, were eradicated. These are all
>introduced species which have no natural predators here and which have
>thus been able to spread unchecked. I don't know how much of a threat
>the two plants are considered to be to native biodiversity, but mink
>(escaped from fur farms or released by criminally reckless or stupid
>animal rights 'activists' who acted with no thought at all for the
>impact of their actions on the native wildlife) are a major problem.
I can tell you exactly how much of a threat introduced species are.
They are not in the same league of threat that humans pose to the
planet. If you're concerned about threat to the natural environment
you should be proposing the culling of possibly 3bn humans.
>
>The underlying truth here is that species evolve to fill a certain
>ecological niche. When they are transplanted from one ecosystem to
>another they can, and often do, cause untold damage (pigs, cats and
>rats in the Indian Ocean, for example the fate of the dodo). There can
>be no excuses, we are intelligent beings who pride ourselves on being
>able to think strategically and act in order to bring about certain
>outcomes.
Bullshit, if you don't mind me saying it. The "ecological niche" of
humans is destroying the planet as we know it - and you're worried
about squirrels. Get real!
>We know (or at least, those of us who are awake know) that
>AGS (American/alien grey squirrels) are a problem and a threat to many
>native species, not solely S vulgaris (what an awful name for such an
>attractive creature). It is now beholden upon us to act to mitigate or
>even eliminate that threat as quickly, effectively, and above all, as
>humanely as possible.
That is the answer I would expect from the brain dead.
Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk
All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003 Posts: 61
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(Msg. 42) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Gwyddno" <Ieithgi.RemoveThis@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1163437946.837106.176160@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> BAC wrote:
>
>
> > Would the genetic diversity of naturalised phenotypes of originally
'alien'
> > species be equally 'precious'?
>
> In short, no.
You snipped the preceding question, why is genetic diversity of native
wildlife precious. Until the 'preciousness' of native wildlife has been
established, condemnation of naturalised wildlife as 'less precious' is
pretty meaningless.
>
> Few tears would be shed if the American mink which does so much damage
> both to native wildlife and to domestic poultry, Japanese knotweed,
> Himalayan balsam to name just three, were eradicated. These are all
> introduced species which have no natural predators here and which have
> thus been able to spread unchecked. I don't know how much of a threat
> the two plants are considered to be to native biodiversity, but mink
> (escaped from fur farms or released by criminally reckless or stupid
> animal rights 'activists' who acted with no thought at all for the
> impact of their actions on the native wildlife) are a major problem.
Indeed they are, and you might add slipper crabs and signal crayfish and
other undesirables to the list of incomers which are not welcome, because
the changes they make to the ecosystems they inhabit are not changes
considered desirable.
>
> The underlying truth here is that species evolve to fill a certain
> ecological niche. When they are transplanted from one ecosystem to
> another they can, and often do, cause untold damage (pigs, cats and
> rats in the Indian Ocean, for example the fate of the dodo).
There can
> be no excuses, we are intelligent beings who pride ourselves on being
> able to think strategically and act in order to bring about certain
> outcomes.
In a nutshell, then, you seem to be saying that your view of what should be
existing where justifies whatever action is necessary to bring about that
desirable state of affairs.
We know (or at least, those of us who are awake know) that
> AGS (American/alien grey squirrels) are a problem and a threat to many
> native species, not solely S vulgaris (what an awful name for such an
> attractive creature).
I know that, too.
It is now beholden upon us to act to mitigate or
> even eliminate that threat as quickly, effectively, and above all, as
> humanely as possible.
But why is it 'beholden upon us'? Just about the only thing which is
constant in Nature is that nothing stays the same, everything changes. >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Nov 12, 2006 Posts: 8
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(Msg. 43) Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: uk>business>agriculture, others (more info?)
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"BAC" <casswalk RemoveThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1163447151.23850.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
>
> "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:45587d86$0$17733$ba620d2c@reader.news.heanet.ie...
>>
>> "BAC" <casswalk RemoveThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:1163424958.21542.0@proxy02.news.clara.net...
>> >
>> > "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:4558514a$0$17737$ba620d2c@reader.news.heanet.ie...
>> >>
>> >> "BAC" <casswalk RemoveThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >> news:1163347897.26791.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
>> >> >
>> >> > "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> > news:WfD5h.15919$j7.333599@news.indigo.ie...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "BAC" <casswalk RemoveThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:1163246438.12003.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > "Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> > news:SI55h.19312$r4.11567@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > In article <1163015802.7617.1 RemoveThis @damia.uk.clara.net>,
>> >> >> >> > BAC <casswalk RemoveThis @NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> Can you please explain why you believe "we need to preserve
> our
>> >> > native
>> >> >> >> >> wildlife"?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Grey squirrels are NOT our native wildlife, they were imported
> from
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> americas by some idiot who then released them into the wild.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I'm surprised at you, merrily crossposting like this.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I'm well aware of the fact grey squirrels are a 'naturalised'
>> > species,
>> >> > as
>> >> >> > opposed to one which was indigenous here, thanks - my original
>> > question
>> >> >> > was
>> >> >> > aimed at finding out why the OP believed that there was a need to
>> >> > preserve
>> >> >> > 'native' wildlife.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Because if you do not, you lose species/races/sub-species/variants
>> >> >> that
>> >> > are
>> >> >> specific to where you live or which are endangered globally.
>> >> >> There is not much that is endemic to the UK but what is, is
> precious.
>> >> >
>> >> > But why is it 'precious'?
>> >>
>> >> Because it is impossible to replace genetic diversity once lost.
>> >>
>> >
>> > So it's genetic diversity which is 'precious'? Why is that?
>
> You haven't answered the main question I have been asking - why do you
> believe the genetic diversity of native wildlife to be 'precious'?
>
>> >
>> > Would the genetic diversity of naturalised phenotypes of originally
>> > 'alien'
>> > species be equally 'precious'?
>>
>> Squirrels are abundant here, there and everywhere; if you lost all the UK
>> ones, you lose a tiny amount of genetic diversity (they all originated
> from
>> a few releasees); you still have the bulk of their genetic diversity back
> in
>> the US.
>> If you lose native stuff, you lose more diversity;
>> if you lose endemic stuff, you lose it for good.
>> Grey squirrels are not precious in the UK, no matter what way you try to
>> twist it.
>>
>
> I'm not trying to twist anything, I'm just genuinely interested in
> people's
> reasoning for supposing that red squirrels and other 'native' species are
> 'precious', whilst grey squirrels and other naturalised species aren't. To
> date, no-one has come up with a convincing explanation other than that it
> is
> simply an arbitrary opinion or preference.
>
If it comes to that then there is nothing precious; I gave you a definition
of "precious" that involved inability to replace stuff.
You merely chose to ignore that.
> >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003 Posts: 61
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(Msg. 44) Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:08 am
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KD76h.16001$j7.333724@news.indigo.ie...
>
> "BAC" <casswalk.DeleteThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1163447151.23850.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
> >
> > "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:45587d86$0$17733$ba620d2c@reader.news.heanet.ie...
> >>
> >> "BAC" <casswalk.DeleteThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:1163424958.21542.0@proxy02.news.clara.net...
> >> >
> >> > "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:4558514a$0$17737$ba620d2c@reader.news.heanet.ie...
> >> >>
> >> >> "BAC" <casswalk.DeleteThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> >> news:1163347897.26791.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Des Higgins" <dazzhiggins.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:WfD5h.15919$j7.333599@news.indigo.ie...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "BAC" <casswalk.DeleteThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> >> >> news:1163246438.12003.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > "Alan Holmes" <alan.holmes.DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >> > news:SI55h.19312$r4.11567@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > In article <1163015802.7617.1.DeleteThis@damia.uk.clara.net>,
> >> >> >> >> > BAC <casswalk.DeleteThis@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> Can you please explain why you believe "we need to preserve
> > our
> >> >> > native
> >> >> >> >> >> wildlife"?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Grey squirrels are NOT our native wildlife, they were imported
> > from
> >> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> americas by some idiot who then released them into the wild.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I'm surprised at you, merrily crossposting like this.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I'm well aware of the fact grey squirrels are a 'naturalised'
> >> > species,
> >> >> > as
> >> >> >> > opposed to one which was indigenous here, thanks - my original
> >> > question
> >> >> >> > was
> >> >> >> > aimed at finding out why the OP believed that there was a need
to
> >> >> > preserve
> >> >> >> > 'native' wildlife.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Because if you do not, you lose
species/races/sub-species/variants
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> > are
> >> >> >> specific to where you live or which are endangered globally.
> >> >> >> There is not much that is endemic to the UK but what is, is
> > precious.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > But why is it 'precious'?
> >> >>
> >> >> Because it is impossible to replace genetic diversity once lost.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > So it's genetic diversity which is 'precious'? Why is that?
> >
> > You haven't answered the main question I have been asking - why do you
> > believe the genetic diversity of native wildlife to be 'precious'?
> >
> >> >
> >> > Would the genetic diversity of naturalised phenotypes of originally
> >> > 'alien'
> >> > species be equally 'precious'?
> >>
> >> Squirrels are abundant here, there and everywhere; if you lost all the
UK
> >> ones, you lose a tiny amount of genetic diversity (they all originated
> > from
> >> a few releasees); you still have the bulk of their genetic diversity
back
> > in
> >> the US.
> >> If you lose native stuff, you lose more diversity;
> >> if you lose endemic stuff, you lose it for good.
> >> Grey squirrels are not precious in the UK, no matter what way you try
to
> >> twist it.
> >>
> >
> > I'm not trying to twist anything, I'm just genuinely interested in
> > people's
> > reasoning for supposing that red squirrels and other 'native' species
are
> > 'precious', whilst grey squirrels and other naturalised species aren't.
To
> > date, no-one has come up with a convincing explanation other than that
it
> > is
> > simply an arbitrary opinion or preference.
> >
>
> If it comes to that then there is nothing precious; I gave you a
definition
> of "precious" that involved inability to replace stuff.
> You merely chose to ignore that.
>
>
No I didn't. I assumed that when you said native wildlife was precious
"Because it is impossible to replace genetic diversity once lost", it was
genetic diversity you really considered precious, so I followed up by asking
why you thought it was precious, to try to understand the root of your
opinion. I hadn't realised that your underlying belief was simply that
anything, whatever it might be, which is irreplaceable, is "precious". >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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Since: Nov 08, 2006 Posts: 6
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(Msg. 45) Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:41 am
Post subject: Re: Culliing Grey Squirrels [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: uk>business>agriculture, others (more info?)
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Geoff wrote:
> Stephen Harris, Carl D. Soulsbury and Graziella IossaSchool of
> Biological Science, University of Bristol, Woodland Rd, Bristol, BS8
> 1UG
>
> SUMMARY
Sumarry?! Good grief! I've just pasted the nonsense I cut from this
'summary' into Word - it filled twenty-two pages. Surely there can be
no excuse for such long posts - would it not have been better to add a
link to a website?
Truth is, red squirrels are endangered in Britain as a *direct* result
of the introduction of AGS. The only way to prevent their complete
extinction is to eliminate the threat from AGS. It might also be a
good idea while we're about it to eliminate the threat from a few human
AGS (or at least the AGS-loving bunny huggers who are unable to
appreciate the harm and damage their beloved tree rats are doing). >> Stay informed about: Culliing Grey Squirrels |
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