 |
|
 |
|
Next: See our huge range of pet id tags
|
| Author |
Message |
External

Since: Dec 15, 2005 Posts: 601
|
(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:01 pm
Post subject: Coat Color Related Question Archived from groups: rec>pets>dogs>breeds (more info?)
|
|
|
I've been chewing on this a bit, and finding no logical answer.
How and why are "acceptable" colors within a breed established? I
understand the necessity to specify that some colors are DQ due to potential
color linked health problems (like problems with breeding merles and
piebalds). But what about the rest? Is it aesthetics, history, what?
Suja >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Sep 04, 2003 Posts: 82
|
(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"Suja" <spanaval.TakeThisOut@scs.gmu.edu> wrote in
news:kzqAg.84941$ZW3.67471@dukeread04:
> How and why are "acceptable" colors within a breed established? I
> understand the necessity to specify that some colors are DQ due to
> potential color linked health problems (like problems with breeding
> merles and piebalds). But what about the rest? Is it aesthetics,
> history, what?
In many cases it is history. Most modern dog breeds are based on a certain
local dog population, a landrace. In the time of very little travelling a
local dog population normally came in just a rather small selection of
colors. Sometimes they were the colors which were best suited to a certain
use, and sometimes they just happened to be what they were.
When modern, standardized dog breeds were "created", these local
populations had most often started to get mixed with other dogs. Looks,
especially color was then one easy way to decide which dogs most probably
had foreign blood and couldn't be registered, and which ones were more
likely pure or nearly pure.
In some cases a breed was created more or less by one person, and in these
cases whatever that person liked might have had a very heavy effect on the
written standard.
And then some local populations were very variable, multicolor. But the
older idea of "being purebred" includes a very high level of homozygoity.
One certain dog type was selected for one reason or other, and just the
dogs which resembled this "ideal dog" could be registered. A very small
selection of colors, perhaps just ONE, is one part of that "idea".
A couple of examples from Finnish breeds.
There are hundreds of years old texts, which tell about weird people living
in snowy Finnish forests, skiing and hunting - and having special fox-like
red dogs with them. There really has been a very common landrace here in
Finland, a smallish hunting spitz which came in several colors but solid or
nearly solid yellow/red was a common color. Perhaps even most common color
in some areas. So, when all kinds of "this is our own National Stuff" was
hip all over Europe during the end of 19th century, the very first Finnish
dog breed was created from the remnants of local pure landrace dog
populations. That dog was naturally going to be fox-colored little spitz -
and that's what our national breed looks today.
Finnish Hound is one of the best hare and fox hunters there are. It isn't a
landrace breed, but it is based on mixes between Swedish hounds, German
hounds, British Foxhound and Russian hounds imported here during 18th and
19th century. Instead of just creating a horde of local hound types (like
French and Swiss did), hunting clubs decided to write a uniform standard
and breed towards it. The followed the idea of "one breed, one
color/pattern" and decided that tan body, black saddle and no white was the
way to go. They soon noticed that those pesky white markings kept on
popping up in several really good dogs, and they decided to change the
standard to "tan body, black saddle AND irish white pattern". That has been
the only accepted color/pattern for well over 100 years now.
Then Lapponian Herder, an ancient dog type but a very recent (1960's)
addition to the world of kennel club accepted breeds. When it was first
"created", a small sub-population of Herders from Menesjarvi village area
was chosen as the "ideal type": certain looks, certain tail carriage, and
black tanpoint color, and the standard was written according to them. But
luckily the time was more open, and soon a larger selection of types and
especially colors were accepted. But as Sami reindeer herding folks on many
regions had preferred dark dogs, the standard was written so that about
every color and pattern is ok, as long as the dog is mainly dark: black,
grey or any shade of brown, with or without pale/tan or white markings.
Liisa >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Dec 15, 2005 Posts: 601
|
(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"Liisa Sarakontu" <lsarakon.TakeThisOut@cc.hut.fi> wrote in message:
> In many cases it is history.
Thank you, Liisa. It is always an education to read your posts.
The question came about when I was reading up on coat color genetics and all
the possible color patterns possible in Danes that are considered
unacceptable, although there doesn't appear to be any logical reason for it.
Suja >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Aug 20, 2003 Posts: 375
|
(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Suja wrote:
> "Liisa Sarakontu" <lsarakon.RemoveThis@cc.hut.fi> wrote in message:
>
> > In many cases it is history.
>
> Thank you, Liisa. It is always an education to read your posts.
>
> The question came about when I was reading up on coat color genetics and all
> the possible color patterns possible in Danes that are considered
> unacceptable, although there doesn't appear to be any logical reason for it.
>
My impression is that some of the disallowed colors are illogical
given what we now know of genetics. I remember reading about
Great Danes, and I think in the breeding of Harlequins you get
a certain percentage of disqualifying colors?
In the Labrador, yellow and chocolate are allowed, but a dog that
expresses both yellow *and* chocolate is disqualified. Breeders
who are concerned with this (some aren't) go to great lengths to
make sure the black dogs they use don't carry the "wrong"
recessive color gene, so they won't accidentally produce mismarks.
Amy Dahl >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Sep 04, 2003 Posts: 82
|
(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:44 am
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"Suja" <spanaval.RemoveThis@scs.gmu.edu> wrote in
news:kSsAg.84948$ZW3.40410@dukeread04:
> The question came about when I was reading up on coat color genetics
> and all the possible color patterns possible in Danes that are
> considered unacceptable, although there doesn't appear to be any
> logical reason for it.
I don't like the Dane color standard. They have some (mainly historical)
reasons for that selection of just 6 accepted colors/patterns. And you're
right, it is totally impossible to breed harlequins without getting merles.
Dane folks say that "everyone knows that merle is BAD", but merle in this
breed is the very same merle which is found from so many other breeds and
it isn't bad in those breeds.
If I was the ruler of dog world, I would immediately accept merle (both
solid and mantle patterned) as a Dane color. Next I would accept blue
harlequin, and then mantle brindle, mantle fawn and mantle blue.
Great Dane is by far the "worst" breed in this "unavoidable problem colors"
thing. It is also only breed around here in which double merles/harles are
regularly produced and that's considered totally normal.
Another breed with this same problem (but with much smaller scale) is
Newfoundland. There are three accepted colors in the breed: solid black,
solid brown and black piebald. Why on earth brown piebald isn't accepted?
There is nothing wrong with it healthwise.
And why Poodles are treated as several nearly separate breeds just due to
their color? Why German Spitzes are strictly divided into three color
classes and while crossbreeding is allowed, breed club doesn't like it? Why
we are now on the way to have FOUR separate Mini Schnauzer breeds instead
of just one breed with several color morphs?
Liisa >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Apr 07, 2006 Posts: 1405
|
(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:59 am
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Liisa Sarakontu wrote:
> "Suja" <spanaval.DeleteThis@scs.gmu.edu> wrote in
> news:kSsAg.84948$ZW3.40410@dukeread04:
>
>
> If I was the ruler of dog world, I would immediately accept merle (both
> solid and mantle patterned) as a Dane color. Next I would accept blue
> harlequin, and then mantle brindle, mantle fawn and mantle blue.
>
> Great Dane is by far the "worst" breed in this "unavoidable problem colors"
> thing. It is also only breed around here in which double merles/harles are
> regularly produced and that's considered totally normal.
And the fawn/brindle Great Dane is essentially a different breed than
the Harlequin, because the coat color genetics are so different that
they never, ever interbreed the two. Harls are generally larger with a
longer tail and mostly (at least in the ones I see) less sound structure.
>
> And why Poodles are treated as several nearly separate breeds just due to
> their color?
Hmmm. They aren't here. They are split by size but not color. However,
apricot poodles are frowned upon in the breed (I don't know if it's an
allowed color) and piebald are strictly prohibited.
Why German Spitzes are strictly divided into three color
> classes and while crossbreeding is allowed, breed club doesn't like it? Why
> we are now on the way to have FOUR separate Mini Schnauzer breeds instead
> of just one breed with several color morphs?
Interesting, here there is just one Mini Schnauzer. The only colors I
know in schnauzers are black and salt-pepper. What other colors are there?
Oh and I've decided that my male Min Pin with the sabling/black hairs in
his red coat *does* have counter shading. Of course I've promptly
forgotten all the great info you told me about that, but his underside
is lighter as is his vent, etc. The black hairs come down his spine and
spread in a "shawl" around his shoulders then in a saddle pattern on his
back, with lighter countershaded streaks coming up on his shoulders. >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Sep 04, 2003 Posts: 82
|
(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Robin Nuttall <robinjn.RemoveThis@mchsi.com> wrote in
news:FEGAg.1118074$xm3.403383@attbi_s21:
> And the fawn/brindle Great Dane is essentially a different breed than
> the Harlequin, because the coat color genetics are so different that
> they never, ever interbreed the two.
Not "so different": the difference is just ONE gene. Blacks, blues and
harles are genetically dominant blacks and fawns/brindles are not. But as
the Dane black is dominant and not recessive black (or tanpoint), it is
better to keep these two populations separate. Merle + fawn (sable) isn't a
good thing as it isn't normally that pretty and it is hard to tell apart
from non-merle, so accidental merle x merle breeding gets more probable.
But there still shouldn't be any big reason to keep blue population
separate from black/harl population. Blue harlequin is pretty...
> Harls are generally larger with a
> longer tail and mostly (at least in the ones I see) less sound
> structure.
When you breed black to black in Danes, you get a big litter of black pups.
Some of them might have too much white, and every now and then there is a
fawn, brindle or blue pup in the litter. But you still have many pups to
choose from when trying to get your next show/breeding stock dog.
When you breed harl to harl, you get about 25 % blacks and mantles, 25 %
double harles/merles with too much white and some merles. Now you are left
with perhaps 30 %, or in best scenario nearly 50 % of the pups. They are
all harles, but harl pattern should be rather even - so discard the ones
with too large black patches or too irregular pattern. A show quality harl
in USA is supposed to have white forelegs and white collar, so discard all
the solid harls (which are normally ok over here) and you might be left
with 1-2 pups, if you are lucky. Now you can't afford to too any choosing
for best conformation...
>> And why Poodles are treated as several nearly separate breeds just due
>> to their color?
>
> Hmmm. They aren't here. They are split by size but not color. However,
> apricot poodles are frowned upon in the breed (I don't know if it's an
> allowed color) and piebald are strictly prohibited.
Poodles are split by size here too (and that's FOUR sizes, not just three
like you have. The one you are missing, the "medium" size between mini and
standard, is very popular here). But they are also partially split by
color: black and brown are one group, and the rest of the accepted colors
(silver, white and apricot) are all supposed to be bred separately. Still a
few years ago any crossbreeding was prohibited by local breed club, but
I've heard that crossing colors is again possible.
> Interesting, here there is just one Mini Schnauzer. The only colors I
> know in schnauzers are black and salt-pepper. What other colors are
> there?
Giant and standard Schnauzer come in just those two colors, but Mini comes
in four colors: black, salt/pepper, black/silver (=tanpoint) and white.
They compete in separate show rings and I'm not sure if any color crossing
is nowadays possible. These rules come from the country of origin, Germany,
and most FCI countries follow them.
Liisa >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: May 13, 2006 Posts: 263
|
(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"Robin Nuttall" <robinjn DeleteThis @mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:FEGAg.1118074$xm3.403383@attbi_s21...
> Interesting, here there is just one Mini Schnauzer. The only colors I know
> in schnauzers are black and salt-pepper. What other colors are there?
I've seen a few Silver ones and IIRC, I've seen a fawn (though I don't know
if that's the official name for the color)
Weirdest thing I saw the other week was a white Scotty. Didn't have the
traditional Scotty cut, so it took me forever to figure out what it was. I
finally gave up and asked the owner. Made perfect sense once she told me.
Tara >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Aug 20, 2003 Posts: 375
|
(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
TaraG wrote:
>
> Weirdest thing I saw the other week was a white Scotty. Didn't have the
> traditional Scotty cut, so it took me forever to figure out what it was. I
> finally gave up and asked the owner. Made perfect sense once she told me.
I was reading Dog Fancy at the vet's the other day, and they had a
feature on Scotties. On one page I was startled to see a picture
of one or two black Scotties--and a white one! The article stated
that allowed colors are black and wheaten. Sure enough, the "white"
one was actually pale buff, and there was another photo of a light-
colored one.
I never knew they came in any other color than black.
Amy Dahl >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: May 13, 2006 Posts: 263
|
(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"Amy Dahl" <amy.RemoveThis@oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:44D38581.D5BB97A0@oakhillkennel.com...
>
>
> TaraG wrote:
>
>>
>> Weirdest thing I saw the other week was a white Scotty. Didn't have the
>> traditional Scotty cut, so it took me forever to figure out what it was.
>> I
>> finally gave up and asked the owner. Made perfect sense once she told me.
>
> I was reading Dog Fancy at the vet's the other day, and they had a
> feature on Scotties. On one page I was startled to see a picture
> of one or two black Scotties--and a white one! The article stated
> that allowed colors are black and wheaten. Sure enough, the "white"
> one was actually pale buff, and there was another photo of a light-
> colored one.
>
> I never knew they came in any other color than black.
That's right! It was more of a buff colored dog than pure white. I actually
asked her if it was a Scotty X Cairn. Cool looking dogs. She actually had
two of them.
Come to think of it, I got the colors crossed in my head. The Mini Schnauzer
I saw was more of a pure white, and the Scotties were more fawn colored.
Thanks for triggering a correction in my memory.
Tara >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Feb 04, 2004 Posts: 1033
|
(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"Robin Nuttall" wrote:
> Hmmm. They aren't here. They are split by size but not color.
Plus, the three sizes are *not* considered to be different breeds, at least
not by the AKC; they're only divided for showing purposes, and I'm fairly
sure that you can breed one size to the other without there being any
differentation in pedigree.
However, DON'T get me started on the idiocy of the AKC "Parson Russell
Terrier" and "Russell Terrier", which are size & build variations of the
Jack Russell Terrier.
>However, apricot poodles are frowned upon in the breed (I don't know if
>it's an allowed color)
It is absolutely an allowed color; why do you say it's "frowned upon"?
> and piebald are strictly prohibited.
Parti-colored dogs aren't allowed in the breed ring, but they have their
supporters & breeders. >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Feb 04, 2004 Posts: 1033
|
(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"TaraG" wrote:
> Weirdest thing I saw the other week was a white Scotty.
The "correct" term for that is "wheaten" - which I only know 'cos I've met
one at an agility trial.
>Didn't have the traditional Scotty cut, so it took me forever to figure out
>what it >was.
Heh. Fortunately, the first one I saw was with someone who has always run
Scotties, so it was intutively obvious what he was. >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Aug 20, 2003 Posts: 375
|
(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:43 am
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Sionnach wrote:
>
> However, DON'T get me started on the idiocy of the AKC "Parson Russell
> Terrier" and "Russell Terrier", which are size & build variations of the
> Jack Russell Terrier.
>
The first I heard of the "Parson Russell Terrier" was an announcement
in the AKC Gazette published in April a couple of years ago. I showed
it to DH, and said, "check out this April Fool's joke."
I still can't get used to the idea it's serious.
Amy Dahl >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Apr 07, 2006 Posts: 1405
|
(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Sionnach wrote:
> I ended up not taking one home with me, btw, because I didn't see a certain
> mental/personality quality I'm looking for; can't quite define it in words,
> but focus would be part of the description. Whatever it is, I saw it in
> Rocsi at 7 weeks, and in Brenin at 8 months, even though he was utterly
> untrained and near-berserk from lack of exercise and mental stimulation.
> The only concrete thing I can say is that they had little or no interest in
> the toy I tried to play with them with (a mini Cuz, which most JRTs LOVE),
> and although they very much wanted attention from humans, neither of them
> ever really LOOKED at me.
Yep, that would do it for me too...especially if they ignored a Cuz,
those incite mine to a frenzy. >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Feb 04, 2004 Posts: 1033
|
(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Coat Color Related Question [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"Robin Nuttall" wrote:
> Yep, that would do it for me too...especially if they ignored a Cuz, those
> incite mine to a frenzy
Yup. Rocsi LOVED her Cuz balls (although I preferred the one she'd killed
the squeak in :-D), and the big dogs like the bigger ones... even Lacey, who
is possibly the most elderly & definitely the most dignified of the lot (we
don't know if she's older or younger than Bren, who's now 11.5). >> Stay informed about: Coat Color Related Question |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
| Related Topics: | Another Coat Color Question - Is it possible for the offspring of a Black Lab (Dam) and Black and Tan GSD (Sire?) to be all white? I'm told that the litter consisted of pups that were all black, black and tan and all white. Haven't seen the pup or littermates, just going by..
Bichon Coat Question - Hi.... I have a 4 year old Bichon. His coat has always been pure white. Recently his ears started turning apricot color. Is this normal? What causes it? Thanks for your help.
Color question: Opposite of sable? - I have 2 black and tan longhaired dachshunds. They are from the same breeder, 'uncle' and 'nephew'. The older (6yo) has always had a reddish tint/haze to the tips of his black hair in certain light. Now I notice that the younger (4yo) has the same..
Wheaten Terrier color question - I have a Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier that is now 1.5 years old. The fur around her eyes has recently started to change from a wheaten color to a more reddish one. It has also gotten more coarse than in other places. This is only happening around her..
Wheaten Terrier color question - I have a Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier that is now 1.5 years old. The fur around her eyes has recently started to change from a wheaten color to a more reddish one. It has also gotten more coarse than in other places. This is only happening around her.. |
|
You can post new topics in this forum You can reply to topics in this forum You can edit your posts in this forum You can delete your posts in this forum You can vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|