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Cat Pregnancy Questions?

 
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Charlie Wilkes

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Since: Aug 17, 2005
Posts: 612



(Msg. 46) Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Cat Pregnancy Questions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>pets>cats>health+behav, others (more info?)

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:08:57 -0700, Sherry wrote:

> On Aug 17, 2:08 pm, Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wil... RemoveThis @users.easynews.com>
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 02:36:11 -0400, Upscale wrote:
>>
>> > Drowning (or suffocation as it might be called) brings on
>> > unconsciousness within a few seconds. An animal does not know to take
>> > a big breath like a human might. Unconsciousness happens in less than
>> > 10 seconds
>>
>> What is your source for this information? I don't believe it. A
>> neighbor of mine had a problem with feral cats nesting under his deck,
>> and he drowned some of them years ago. He said they would struggle for
>> a good 3 minutes, and after about the second or third one, he started
>> shooting them instead.
>>
>> Charlie
>
> I have a hard time believing it too. It came to our attention that a
> animal control in a neighboring
> town was trapping skunks, and drowning them in the traps. I lobbied hard
> over this. I don't care if
> they *are* skunks, I thought it was a terrible, frightening, and
> inhumane way to die.
>
> Sherry

Mark Twain said this: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into
trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

It's easy enough to research topics like this on the web and find out
what the experts think. The American Veterinary Medical Association's
Guidelines on Euthanasia (June 2007) can be found here:

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf

Drowning is listed in "Appendix 4 - Some Unacceptable Agents and Methods
of Euthanasia" with the comment, "Drowning is not a form of euthanasia
and is inhumane."

Charlie

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Upscale

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Since: Feb 14, 2006
Posts: 180



(Msg. 47) Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:41 am
Post subject: Re: Cat Pregnancy Questions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Dan Espen" <daneNO.TakeThisOut@MORE.mk.SPAMtelcordia.com> wrote in message
> > Drowning is listed in "Appendix 4 - Some Unacceptable Agents and Methods
> > of Euthanasia" with the comment, "Drowning is not a form of euthanasia
> > and is inhumane."
>
> Note that those are guidelines for vets.
>
> In a veterinary context there are many methods available that bring
> on sudden death or allow for the animal to be sedated first.

Thank you. I never said that there weren't easier and more acceptable
methods of euthanasia. All I was trying to get across was that when an
animal was in extreme agony and distress and the more accepted methods of
putting an animal down were not immediately available, then I consider it
more humane to use a fairly quick method to kill the animal. Despite the
squeamishness of some of the respondents in this conversation, drowning is a
relatively quick method.

As to the person that was requesting my source for this information, my
source works in the veterinary industry, but has absolutely no intent on
becoming personally involved in this conversation. If that's not good enough
for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and present
your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that information of
course)

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"Sheelagh >o

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Since: Jul 13, 2007
Posts: 176



(Msg. 48) Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:22 am
Post subject: Re: Cat Pregnancy Questions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 19 Aug, 08:41, "Upscale" <upsc....RemoveThis@teksavvy.com> wrote:
> "Dan Espen" <dan....RemoveThis@MORE.mk.SPAMtelcordia.com> wrote in message
> > > Drowning is listed in "Appendix 4 - Some Unacceptable Agents and Methods
> > > of Euthanasia" with the comment, "Drowning is not a form of euthanasia
> > > and is inhumane."
>
> > Note that those are guidelines for vets.
>
> > In a veterinary context there are many methods available that bring
> > on sudden death or allow for the animal to be sedated first.
>
> Thank you. I never said that there weren't easier and more acceptable
> methods of euthanasia. All I was trying to get across was that when an
> animal was in extreme agony and distress and the more accepted methods of
> putting an animal down were not immediately available, then I consider it
> more humane to use a fairly quick method to kill the animal. Despite the
> squeamishness of some of the respondents in this conversation, drowning is a
> relatively quick method.
>
> As to the person that was requesting my source for this information, my
> source works in the veterinary industry, but has absolutely no intent on
> becoming personally involved in this conversation. If that's not good enough
> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and present
> your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that information of
> course)

If that's not good enough
> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and present
> your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that information of
> course)

I believe he did, in appendix 4, if you wish to read it. If you follow
the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to the
trouble of producing.

It would seem that I am one of those too squeamish to stick a kittens
head in a bucket of water, & remain holding it there until the poor
creatures struggles ceased.

Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to
try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further
distress. You will understand what I mean when you take a look at the
veterinary surgeons findings.
Sheelagh>"o"<
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William Graham

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Since: Dec 08, 2006
Posts: 369



(Msg. 49) Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:39 am
Post subject: Re: Cat Pregnancy Questions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

> Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to
> try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further
> distress. You will understand what I mean when you take a look at the
> veterinary surgeons findings.
> Sheelagh>"o"<
>

For what it's worth....(I have been following this thread) I am 72 years
old. (Yesterday was my birthday) When I was about 30, I drowned a mouse by
holding it under water. (We had an infestation of mice, and I caught this
one without a trap, so I drowned it.) That was 42 years ago.....I will never
forget it, and I have never drowned anything else since.

The point? - Just be advised that some of the things you might do when you
are 30 will not sit well with you when you are older, so think well before
you act.......
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Upscale

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Since: Feb 14, 2006
Posts: 180



(Msg. 50) Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:52 am
Post subject: Re: Cat Pregnancy Questions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Sheelagh >o<" <sheelagh_madden DeleteThis @hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> I believe he did, in appendix 4, if you wish to read it. If you follow
> the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to the
> trouble of producing.

And if *you* had read further, you'd have seen Dan mention that those
findings were for vets. Since we're not vets, that doesn't leave the much
easier option of a sedative and then a shot to kill the kitten.

> Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to
> try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further
> distress. You will understand what I mean when you take a look at the
> veterinary surgeons findings.

Then you'd be actively forcing the kitten to live and suffer a longer period
until you found some method that was less squeamish for you to use.
Personally, I think that's pretty selfish.

Tell me Sheelagh, if you had your guts ripped out and you were screaming in
agony with nothing left for you to scream for quite a few minutes more until
you slowly bled to death, would you accept being suffocated into
unconsciousness within several seconds? I don't know about you, but I sure
would.
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Upscale

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Since: Feb 14, 2006
Posts: 180



(Msg. 51) Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:23 am
Post subject: Re: Cat Pregnancy Questions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Sheelagh >o<" <sheelagh_madden.DeleteThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message >
> Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to
> try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further
> distress.

In all honesty, I think we both have an animal's welfare at heart, just that
we might take different routes to do something about it. Say what you want,
I'm finished with this thread.
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Charlie Wilkes

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Since: Aug 17, 2005
Posts: 612



(Msg. 52) Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Cat Pregnancy Questions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:22:08 -0700, Sheelagh >o< wrote:

> On 19 Aug, 08:41, "Upscale" <upsc... DeleteThis @teksavvy.com> wrote:
>
> If that's not good enough
>> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and
>> present your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that
>> information of course)
>
> I believe he did, in appendix 4, if you wish to read it. If you follow
> the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to the
> trouble of producing.

I spent about 45 minutes on this and chose the most authoritative source
among many. I also discovered that drowning animals is against the law
in quite a few jurisdictions, and I ran across a news article about a
couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for "euthanizing"
their cat in this manner... www.ajnews.com

Charlie
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"Sheelagh >o

External


Since: Jul 13, 2007
Posts: 176



(Msg. 53) Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:11 am
Post subject: Re: Cat Pregnancy Questions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 19 Aug, 20:28, Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wil....TakeThisOut@users.easynews.com>
wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:22:08 -0700, Sheelagh >o< wrote:
> > On 19 Aug, 08:41, "Upscale" <upsc....TakeThisOut@teksavvy.com> wrote:
>
> > If that's not good enough
> >> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and
> >> present your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that
> >> information of course)
>
> > I believe he did, in appendix 4, if you wish to read it. If you follow
> > the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to the
> > trouble of producing.
>
> I spent about 45 minutes on this and chose the most authoritative source
> among many. I also discovered that drowning animals is against the law
> in quite a few jurisdictions, and I ran across a news article about a
> couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for "euthanizing"
> their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com
>
> Charlie

and I ran across a news article about a
> couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for "euthanizing"
> their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com

It, is probably almost stuck up my nose,but I can't seem to locate
it.
Is it on a different page Charlie?
Sheelagh>"o"<
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Upscale

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Since: Feb 14, 2006
Posts: 180



(Msg. 54) Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:50 am
Post subject: Re: Cat Pregnancy Questions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Sheelagh >o<" <sheelagh_madden.RemoveThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> >
> > I spent about 45 minutes on this and chose the most authoritative source
> > among many. I also discovered that drowning animals is against the law
> > in quite a few jurisdictions, and I ran across a news article about a
> > couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for "euthanizing"
> > their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com

> It, is probably almost stuck up my nose,but I can't seem to locate
> it.
> Is it on a different page Charlie?
> Sheelagh>"o"<

I have one more comment on this. These examples of euthanizing and arrests
and all that stuff. Were these cats severely injured when they were drowned
or were they for the most part healthy cats? That's what we're talking
about, euthanizing a severely injured cat. If someone killed a cat for
another reason, then that has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion.
*When* you find that link, research under what circumstances these cats were
euthanized. *THEN* go and find me examples of someone being convicted for
drowning a severely injured kitty. Until you can do that, you or Charlie or
whoever wants to comment have no rebuttal to what I've been talking about.
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Charlie Wilkes

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Since: Aug 17, 2005
Posts: 612



(Msg. 55) Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Cat Pregnancy Questions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:11:35 -0700, Sheelagh >o< wrote:

> On 19 Aug, 20:28, Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wil... RemoveThis @users.easynews.com>
> wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:22:08 -0700, Sheelagh >o< wrote:
>> > On 19 Aug, 08:41, "Upscale" <upsc... RemoveThis @teksavvy.com> wrote:
>>
>> > If that's not good enough
>> >> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and
>> >> present your information to the contrary. (with your sources for
>> >> that information of course)
>>
>> > I believe he did, in appendix 4, if you wish to read it. If you
>> > follow the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to
>> > the trouble of producing.
>>
>> I spent about 45 minutes on this and chose the most authoritative
>> source among many. I also discovered that drowning animals is against
>> the law in quite a few jurisdictions, and I ran across a news article
>> about a couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for
>> "euthanizing" their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com
>>
>> Charlie
>
> and I ran across a news article about a
>> couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for
>> "euthanizing" their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com
>
> It, is probably almost stuck up my nose,but I can't seem to locate it.
> Is it on a different page Charlie?
> Sheelagh>"o"<

They changed the content on that site. Here is another link:
http://tinyurl.com/37lfcs

Charlie
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