Cat Pregnancy Questions?

On 15 Aug, 13:52, "Wendy" <wendyp....RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote:
> "Skye" <pion....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1187117384.706368.3370@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 14, 9:43 am, "cindys" <cste....RemoveThis@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >> "Skye" <pion....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into
> >> > heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there
> >> > such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/
>
> >> Yes. It's called a "spay."
>
> > I'm glad your life is so well-ordered and nothing ever gets out of
> > your control once
> > in a while. However, please realize that's not the case with everyone
> > in the world, mkay?
>
> > The older cat is a feral cat who I've been feeding for the last two
> > years, but has
> > hung around this neighborhood for at least 10. I've somehow grown
> > attached,
> > even though she is wild. She will not come to me nor allow me to so
> > much as touch her. You tell me how to get her to the vet, Cindy S.,
> > ok?
>
> You buy or borrow (rescue groups and shelters sometimes lend traps - ask
> them) a humane trap. If you've been feeding this cat anyway it should be
> quite easy to trap her. Check with the rescue groups for recommendations for
> low-cost spay neuter locations where they will do feral cats. Make an
> appointment. The day of or the night before the appointment, put some good
> smelly wet food in the back of the trap and set it shortly before the time
> that the cat usually shows up to eat. Then wait in an out of sight but not
> out of hearing place for the unique sound of a trap tripping. Cover trap
> with a large towel and take the cat in the trap to the vet for her spay. If
> it's the night before, place a large plastic bag on the floor of a garage or
> similar place. Put a thick layer of newspaper on the plastic bag and then
> set the trap on them. The cat will be fine in a covered trap overnight.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Last summer, some of the neighbors tried to get rid of her. They did
> > manage to
> > catch her kittens and most of them were put to sleep. This summer,
> > we've managed
> > to get the kittens before they were found, but we had to pull off
> > commando-type
> > raids under cat-hating neighbors porches to do it.
>
> > She seems to be safe and stays under the radar all the rest of the
> > year.
>
> > I simply wondered how many more summers I could look forward to
> > worrying about
> > this. Or do you just think I should stop feeding her? I mean, what
> > gives with your
> > attitude???
>
> If you aren't willing to get her spayed, you are doing more harm than good
> by feeding her. You are keeping her healthy enough to continue reproducing
> kittens when there are already too many kittens to ever possibly home. You
> basically are facilitating the birth of kittens so that they or others like
> them will have to be put to death. I know people mean well when they start
> feeding strays but the truth is that it's better not to and just let nature
> take it's course unless you're willing to commit to doing it right and
> spay/neuter the cat.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> > 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the
> >> > symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every
> >> > few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and
> >> > otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting
> >> > the
> >> > vet?
>
> >> You should be contacting the vet about having her spayed. Why are you
> >> allowing your cats to breed?
>
> > This cat is my indoor, well-cared-for, beautiful, loved cat. Yes, I
> > wanted her to
> > have kittens. OMG! I'm guilty! Shoot me, but not the cat!
> > Seriously, I'm not sure
> > since 9/11/2001, but I THINK America is still free enough that if you
> > want your
> > cat to breed, you are allowed to do so. Unless there's some law I'm
> > not aware
> > of (under Homeland Security, maybe?). I don't even think you have to
> > ask
> > permission from, well, ANYBODY. Lol.
>
> > Well, thank you for your, um, help and info, Cindy S. I can assure
> > you, the
> > world is a much safer and better place. You can sleep well tonight.
> > Skye
>
> People tend to get a little bent out of shape with people who are willfully
> adding to the cat over-population problem. I volunteer for a cat rescue
> group. We do adoptions from a Pet Smart store on Saturdays. Last weekend we
> had a man bring us a kitten who was obviously on death's door. It appeared
> to have injested some type of poison and was having convultions. It was
> beyond helping so one of our volunteers took the kitten to the local SPCA to
> get it euthanized. When she arrived there the person at the shelter told her
> they couldn't help us because they didn't have room. Our volunteer told them
> that we weren't asking them to take the cat and house it but to put it out
> of it's misery. The shelter person again said they didn't have room. When it
> became obvious that they were miscommunicating the shelter person clarified
> that they didn't have any room in their FREEZER where they keep the
> euthanized animals until they can be cremated. She said that they couldn't
> fit a hampster in the freezer if they had to. THAT'S how many unwanted
> animals there are out there. And THAT'S why people tend to get a little
> short with someone who is exacerbating the problem.
>
> W- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

> You buy or borrow (rescue groups and shelters sometimes lend traps - ask
> them) a humane trap. If you've been feeding this cat anyway it should be
> quite easy to trap her. Check with the rescue groups for recommendations for
> low-cost spay neuter locations where they will do feral cats. Make an
> appointment. The day of or the night before the appointment, put some good
> smelly wet food in the back of the trap and set it shortly before the time
> that the cat usually shows up to eat. Then wait in an out of sight but not
> out of hearing place for the unique sound of a trap tripping. Cover trap
> with a large towel and take the cat in the trap to the vet for her spay. If
> it's the night before, place a large plastic bag on the floor of a garage or
> similar place. Put a thick layer of newspaper on the plastic bag and then
> set the trap on them. The cat will be fine in a covered trap overnight.

Yes, I found that heating the food up attracted them straight to to
the bowl because their sense of smell is so superior to our own. I
couldn't find any society that was willing to lend me a trap, but I
did find a private american citizen on a USAF base that was willing to
lend me one. I was no expert on trapping cats, believe me- In fact, I
had never tried trapping a cat before, but with advice from Phil, I
managed to catch Lucy(fur!!) first time, so please @ least have the
confidence to try it out?
The vet was good enough to come out to us, & treated her immediate
needs, & we took her in the following day to have her spayed.
Lucy(fur!) was the only one that was so shy that we simply couldn't
catch her though. The rest, we were able to entice with food alone.

> If you aren't willing to get her spayed, you are doing more harm than good
> by feeding her. You are keeping her healthy enough to continue reproducing
> kittens when there are already too many kittens to ever possibly home. You
> basically are facilitating the birth of kittens so that they or others like
> them will have to be put to death. I know people mean well when they start
> feeding strays but the truth is that it's better not to and just let nature
> take it's course unless you're willing to commit to doing it right and
> spay/neuter the cat.

I wonder if you have a society in the USA that will pay towards the
cost of spaying a cat? In the UK we have a society called the Cat
Protection League, & their main objective, is to spay, neuter & advise
on how to catch cats that need fixing. They also rescue cats too, but
are totally reliant on volunteers who are willing to help for nothing.
If you do, these might be the best people to contact? Over here, they
are willing to pay half the cost towards spay or neuter fee's, which
is very helpful if you face the charge personally for a cat that you
don't own & intend to release.I was wondering if you have any similar
programs in the USA that you can go to if you need help like this?


> People tend to get a little bent out of shape with people who are willfully
> adding to the cat over-population problem. I volunteer for a cat rescue
> group. We do adoptions from a Pet Smart store on Saturdays. Last weekend we
> had a man bring us a kitten who was obviously on death's door. It appeared
> to have injested some type of poison and was having convultions. It was
> beyond helping so one of our volunteers took the kitten to the local SPCA to
> get it euthanized. When she arrived there the person at the shelter told her
> they couldn't help us because they didn't have room. Our volunteer told them
> that we weren't asking them to take the cat and house it but to put it out
> of it's misery. The shelter person again said they didn't have room. When it
> became obvious that they were miscommunicating the shelter person clarified
> that they didn't have any room in their FREEZER where they keep the
> euthanized animals until they can be cremated. She said that they couldn't
> fit a hampster in the freezer if they had to. THAT'S how many unwanted
> animals there are out there. And THAT'S why people tend to get a little
> short with someone who is exacerbating the problem.

OMG Wendy, I have never heard such a sad story in my entitre life. I
used to wonder why people got so out of shape when they heard of our
community bowl, but having heard this story, I now understand why. Our
community bowl has two objectives. The first was to stop them
starving, & the second was to see that they were fixed. I end up
paying around $30 for a male, & $40 for a female. It's not a huge
amount of money to find, & well worth the hassle of catching them. It
is also worth having a word with your regular vet, to see if they are
willing to do cheaper rates if you take more than say, one a month to
them too.

I knew that things were bad in the USA regarding feral & unwanted
cats, but I had no idea exactly how bad. I hope that story serves as a
reminder to others as to why it is so important to get them spayed &
neutered. I have to say that I am very shocked to hear your story.
That is absolutely horrific!! I can only assume that we lead very
sheltered lives in the UK, or the problem is not yet quite at crisis
point.
Thank you for sharing this story with us.

Sheelagh >"o"<
( Nice to see you too;o)
 >> Stay informed about: Cat Pregnancy Questions? 

On Aug 14, 7:57 pm, "William Graham" <w... DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:

> With the exception of a few trolls, everyone here has one thing in
> common....We all love cats and hate to see anything bad happen to them.

Apparently, that's not entirely true. There are evidently some in
here who think
it's best to just let stray cats and dogs starve. THAT can't be
good.

> Anytime you ask strangers for an opinion,

which I *didn't*

> you are risking getting bad
> advice.....the question I have is: Why did you post here in the first place?

For information:

1. To find out if there is an age at which a female cat might stop
breeding
naturally.

2. To find out if my pregnant cat was medically in danger.

To my knowledge, only 1 person attempted to specifically answered both
questions.
The rest is just rabid, nutty farting in the wind to me - with the
exception of your
advice of trapping the older cat.

When I was having trouble with my car, I posted my problem to some
car
newsgroups asking for information. I received 12 responses packed
full
of info so that I was able to get my car fixed quickly. There were no
opinions -
no one accused me of letting my car get in disrepair or putting
pollution into
the air by driving a car, no judgmental attitudes at all. I simply
received
information that I needed.

However, to be honest, I haven't posted on Usenet for a long time and
I've forgotten
how vicious and pompously superior people can act here when they know
they're anonymous. All you can do is killfile some, ignore others,
and pick the most
constructive ones out of the mess.

Skye
 >> Stay informed about: Cat Pregnancy Questions? 

"Skye" <pion88r.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1187189900.078726.29980@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
> However, to be honest, I haven't posted on Usenet for a long time and
> I've forgotten
> how vicious and pompously superior people can act here when they know
> they're anonymous.
-----
With all due respect, you could easily be describing your own behavior on
this newsgroup.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
 >> Stay informed about: Cat Pregnancy Questions? 

"Skye" <pion88r RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1187189900.078726.29980@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 14, 7:57 pm, "William Graham" <w... RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> With the exception of a few trolls, everyone here has one thing in
>> common....We all love cats and hate to see anything bad happen to them.
>
> Apparently, that's not entirely true. There are evidently some in
> here who think
> it's best to just let stray cats and dogs starve. THAT can't be
> good.
>
>> Anytime you ask strangers for an opinion,
>
> which I *didn't*
>
>> you are risking getting bad
>> advice.....the question I have is: Why did you post here in the first
>> place?
>
> For information:
>
> 1. To find out if there is an age at which a female cat might stop
> breeding
> naturally.
>
> 2. To find out if my pregnant cat was medically in danger.
>
> To my knowledge, only 1 person attempted to specifically answered both
> questions.
> The rest is just rabid, nutty farting in the wind to me - with the
> exception of your
> advice of trapping the older cat.
>
> When I was having trouble with my car, I posted my problem to some
> car
> newsgroups asking for information. I received 12 responses packed
> full
> of info so that I was able to get my car fixed quickly. There were no
> opinions -
> no one accused me of letting my car get in disrepair or putting
> pollution into
> the air by driving a car, no judgmental attitudes at all. I simply
> received
> information that I needed.
>
> However, to be honest, I haven't posted on Usenet for a long time and
> I've forgotten
> how vicious and pompously superior people can act here when they know
> they're anonymous. All you can do is killfile some, ignore others,
> and pick the most
> constructive ones out of the mess.
>
> Skye
>
Well, you have to understand that not all of us cat lovers agree on
everything.....Exactly what is the best way to help cats is a matter of
opinion, and there are things that some of us would do that others wouldn't
do.....I happen (for example) to believe it is better to let a cat go, and
give it a chance to fend for itself, than it is to put it to sleep.....But
we have had some rousing wars and disagreements on this point. I picked up
my favorite cat from a Burger King parking lot, where someone who couldn't
keep him any longer just dropped him off.....When he tried to beg some
hamburger from me, he got his little fanny thrown in my car, and brought
home permanently. Not all cats are so lucky, so I can understand why others
disagree with me.....
 >> Stay informed about: Cat Pregnancy Questions? 

>
> OMG Wendy, I have never heard such a sad story in my entitre life. I
> used to wonder why people got so out of shape when they heard of our
> community bowl, but having heard this story, I now understand why. Our
> community bowl has two objectives. The first was to stop them
> starving, & the second was to see that they were fixed. I end up
> paying around $30 for a male, & $40 for a female. It's not a huge
> amount of money to find, & well worth the hassle of catching them. It
> is also worth having a word with your regular vet, to see if they are
> willing to do cheaper rates if you take more than say, one a month to
> them too.
>
> I knew that things were bad in the USA regarding feral & unwanted
> cats, but I had no idea exactly how bad. I hope that story serves as a
> reminder to others as to why it is so important to get them spayed &
> neutered. I have to say that I am very shocked to hear your story.
> That is absolutely horrific!! I can only assume that we lead very
> sheltered lives in the UK, or the problem is not yet quite at crisis
> point.
> Thank you for sharing this story with us.
>
> Sheelagh >"o"<
> ( Nice to see you too;o)
>

It's the God's honest truth. I was shocked when the volunteer came back and
told us of the problem she had getting the poor thing put out of it's
misery. It was bent over backwards seizing and covered it what looked like
maggots and the SPCA couldn't help us. The volunteer finally took it to a
private vet who was still open and they euthanized the kitten for us.

We're smack dab in the middle of kitten season here and I guess everyone is
filled up with cats. There is a shelter in Philadelphia that has been giving
them away for a dollar just so they don't have to euthanize. The sad thing
is that many of these $1 cats will be returned or dumped back on the street
and have to be dealt with later. Maybe there will be more room then though -
or at least one can hope.

I'm back up to 17 fosters myself. Two of them are bottle feeders that were
found outside with no mom. There were four kittens to start with but the one
was dead when it arrived at the vets office and they euthanized the other
because it was so sick. I was at the vet's picking up one of my fosters (the
mother of 6 kittens born on Father's Day) and they asked if I could take the
surviving two.

W
 >> Stay informed about: Cat Pregnancy Questions? 

"Skye" <pion88r DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1187189900.078726.29980@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com
: : On Aug 14, 7:57 pm, "William Graham" <w... DeleteThis @comcast.net>
: : wrote:
: :
: : : With the exception of a few trolls, everyone here has
: : : one thing in common....We all love cats and hate to
: : : see anything bad happen to them.
: :
: : Apparently, that's not entirely true. There are
: : evidently some in here who think
: : it's best to just let stray cats and dogs starve. THAT
: : can't be good.
: :
: : : Anytime you ask strangers for an opinion,
: :
: : which I *didn't*

Actually you did, by posting here.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what's been posted, but the simple
act of posting a message on a newsgroup implies that you want replies.
These replies will invariably be people's opinions. Whether or not they
are facts is a different matter entirely.


Ivor
 >> Stay informed about: Cat Pregnancy Questions? 

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:20:49 +0000, Skye wrote:
>
> Oh for God's sakes, I would NEVER start feeding a cat or dog just to
> quit when it becomes inconvenient for me.

That's commendable, but what is wrong with the idea of trapping this
animal and getting her spayed? What if she comes around with a litter of
kittens? Will you feed them all? Eventually you might be faced with a
Malthusian problem.

Charlie
 >> Stay informed about: Cat Pregnancy Questions? 

"Wendy" <wendypart DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote in message news:S9idnSXf49-
> group. We do adoptions from a Pet Smart store on Saturdays. Last weekend
we
> had a man bring us a kitten who was obviously on death's door. It appeared
> to have injested some type of poison and was having convultions. It was
> beyond helping so one of our volunteers took the kitten to the local SPCA
to
> get it euthanized. When she arrived there the person at the shelter told
her
> they couldn't help us because they didn't have room.

I have to ask. When confronted with this problem, why did *you* not force
yourself to take action? You had a kitten that was obviously in great
distress, you knew it had to be put down and you couldn't immediately find a
vet to do it. All the time and effort you spent trying to do the right thing
and the kitten was suffering. A few seconds of submerging it in a sink and
it's agony would have been over. Relatively quick and painless. That takes
real guts and real love of animals, putting an animal down that you care
for.

I had to do that once to a dog I owned after she got run over by a car. The
way her guts were splayed out on the road and she was still alive yelping in
agony, all I could do was run to get a tire iron and crush her skull. Then I
buried her in my backyard garden. I cried for over a week and it was the
hardest thing I've ever had to do, but I knew it was the right thing to do.

I still cry sometimes when I think of what I had to do, but I know that
under the same circumstances, I'd do it again. Putting aside society's laws
for a moment, if the situation was reversed, I'd want someone to do the same
thing for me. That was the only way I could rationalize myself into doing
what I knew I had to do.
 >> Stay informed about: Cat Pregnancy Questions? 

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 04:12:49 -0400, Upscale wrote:
>
> I have to ask. When confronted with this problem, why did *you* not force
> yourself to take action? You had a kitten that was obviously in great
> distress, you knew it had to be put down and you couldn't immediately find a
> vet to do it. All the time and effort you spent trying to do the right thing
> and the kitten was suffering. A few seconds of submerging it in a sink and
> it's agony would have been over. Relatively quick and painless. That takes
> real guts and real love of animals, putting an animal down that you care
> for.

It's also illegal in many areas: it's considered animal cruelty for an
unapproved person to use an unapproved method to end the distress of a
suffering animal. It *is* however allowed to *cause* suffering of certain
species during hunting season, provided you have a license (you don't have
to be competent to kill quickly so long as you have the license).

--
T.E.D. (tdavis@umr.edu)
 >> Stay informed about: Cat Pregnancy Questions? 

"Ted Davis" <tdavis.TakeThisOut@umr.edu> wrote in message
>
> It's also illegal in many areas: it's considered animal cruelty for an
> unapproved person to use an unapproved method to end the distress of a
> suffering animal.

Of course it's illegal, probably always will be in North America, but that's
not the point as far as I'm concerned. When I put my dog down, it wouldn't
have mattered if there were 20 people there threatening to have me charged,
it was a matter of my own peace of mind. And if I'd had to pay some fine or
serve some type of incarceration, that wouldn't have mattered much either.
It was just a matter of my doing what I felt was needed to be done right
away.
 >> Stay informed about: Cat Pregnancy Questions? 

"Upscale" <upscale.DeleteThis@teksavvy.com> wrote in message
news:8fed2$46c40741$cef88bc5$7277@TEKSAVVY.COM...
> "Wendy" <wendypart.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote in message news:S9idnSXf49-
>> group. We do adoptions from a Pet Smart store on Saturdays. Last weekend
> we
>> had a man bring us a kitten who was obviously on death's door. It
>> appeared
>> to have injested some type of poison and was having convultions. It was
>> beyond helping so one of our volunteers took the kitten to the local SPCA
> to
>> get it euthanized. When she arrived there the person at the shelter told
> her
>> they couldn't help us because they didn't have room.
>
> I have to ask. When confronted with this problem, why did *you* not force
> yourself to take action? You had a kitten that was obviously in great
> distress, you knew it had to be put down and you couldn't immediately find
> a
> vet to do it. All the time and effort you spent trying to do the right
> thing
> and the kitten was suffering. A few seconds of submerging it in a sink and
> it's agony would have been over. Relatively quick and painless.
---------
I don't necessarily dispute your premise of putting an animal out of its
misery yourself. My husband once had no choice but to do this for a baby
bird with a broken neck who had fallen out of its nest. He chopped off its
head with a hoe. Death was instant. But drowning the kitten would not be the
least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up with
water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible way
for the kitten to die.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.



>That takes
> real guts and real love of animals, putting an animal down that you care
> for.
>
> I had to do that once to a dog I owned after she got run over by a car.
> The
> way her guts were splayed out on the road and she was still alive yelping
> in
> agony, all I could do was run to get a tire iron and crush her skull. Then
> I
> buried her in my backyard garden. I cried for over a week and it was the
> hardest thing I've ever had to do, but I knew it was the right thing to
> do.
>
> I still cry sometimes when I think of what I had to do, but I know that
> under the same circumstances, I'd do it again. Putting aside society's
> laws
> for a moment, if the situation was reversed, I'd want someone to do the
> same
> thing for me. That was the only way I could rationalize myself into doing
> what I knew I had to do.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Cat Pregnancy Questions? 

"cindys" <cstein1 RemoveThis @rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up
with
> water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible way
> for the kitten to die.

Possibly. But, balance the few seconds it would take to become unconscious
against the hours the kitten was in agony while someone was looking for a
vet to euthanize the kitten. Reverse the roles and I know which method I'd
prefer to die.
 >> Stay informed about: Cat Pregnancy Questions? 

On 16 Aug, 21:53, "Wendy" <wendyp... DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote:
> "Upscale" <upsc... DeleteThis @teksavvy.com> wrote in message
>
> news:69b11$46c47317$cef88bc5$1317@TEKSAVVY.COM...
>
>
>
> > "cindys" <cste... DeleteThis @rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> >> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up
> > with
> >> water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible
> >> way
> >> for the kitten to die.
>
> > Possibly. But, balance the few seconds it would take to become unconscious
> > against the hours the kitten was in agony while someone was looking for a
> > vet to euthanize the kitten. Reverse the roles and I know which method I'd
> > prefer to die.
>
> It wasn't hours. The SPCA was close by as was the vet who did euthanize.
>
> W

> It wasn't hours. The SPCA was close by as was the vet who did euthanize.

I "know" that you did the right thing by that kitten Wendy, & so does
every other person who knows you on here. I find it very tacky that
others feel the need to pick over the fact that you did what was best
@ that time for the kitten concerned.

You have spent a long time helping kittens, cats & all manner of
rescues for several years, & during that time, you have saved untold
amount of cats, pregnant Queens & their litters, because of others
thoughtless attitudes towards spaying & neutering their own cats. It's
sad that someone feels that they have the right to come along & nit
pick about what you did for that one kitten, without recognising the
years that you have spent devoting your life towards saving cats &
homing the most needy ( & yes, that includes me whilst I continued to
breed cats too!!)

If I can see this, then so can they too- I feel/ think this is
selective & downright inventive. No hours, were mentioned @ all in
your passage! Some are selectively choosing to see what they want to,
rather than the facts in front of them.

I say well done to you for doing what you could @ the time. It was no
easy task & I'm certain that you found no happiness in what you had to
do to put the poor mite out of it's misery. You should be thanked for
what you had to do, not criticised.

All I can see here is speculation, about what they "might/ or should"
have done.
I only agree with one of them, & only then if I had no other choice.
Lets thank the powers that be that they were not faced with your
agonising choices, & the poor mite wasn't in their care @ the time.
You did what you had to in as short as time as was reasonably
possible. You have my utter respect, it was no easy thing to have to
handle, & I am so sorry that you were faced with that situation. It
was a terrible position to find yourself in.
Best Wishes,
Sheelagh>"o"<
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