Black moor resting by heater

"Gail Futoran" <futoran.TakeThisOut@nospam.worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:qDtyf.477999$zb5.385232@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Hi Cindy S -
>
> I'm not a goldfish expert but some of the
> same principles apply to all hobby fish.
> You mentioned turning the filter off. That's
> not a good idea. The only thing you need to
> do with a filter when using medications is
> remove the carbon cartridge, which usually
> isn't needed anyway.

Done.
>
> You mentioned the tank being up only a
> few weeks or a month. Partial water changes
> need to be done weekly, especially with
> "dirty" fish like goldfish.

Okay. We've done a partial water change today.
>
> There are a number of small (not expensive)
> books on goldfish care, available at pet
> stores and bookstores. If you don't already
> have one, I'd suggest getting one or two. I'm
> a big fan of reference books for hobbies.

Got it!
>
> I have cats and although litter boxes aren't in
> the same room, there are five boxes scattered
> about the house. I wouldn't worry if I were
> you about the ammonia from litter boxes
> ending up in your goldfish tank.

Okay.
>
> As a wild guess, I would suggest that putting
> two goldfish together into water that probably
> was not cycled first stressed out your fish. It
> happened your original fish was more sensitive
> since it had been alone in its own water for so
> long (possible old tank syndrome, as others
> mentioned), whereas the new fish had come from
> a tank with a bunch of other fish.
>
> When you test the water you want nitrAtes but
> not nitrItes or ammonia. Nitrates should range
> around 20, I think, for goldfish. (I try to keep it
> at that level or lower for tropical fish.)
>
> I hope your fish will be ok. Let us know
> what happens.
>
The water quality has now been tested, and it turned out to be fine. Now,
the woman at the pet shop has diagnosed a swim bladder problem. She advised
my husband to feed the fish the inside of a pea (they were all out of the
medication), saying it's not a magic cure-all, but it should make a big
difference. Would you agree with that?

My husband came home with $40 worth of stuff (the water test kit, new
filters, and the goldfish book), all in the hopes of saving the life of this
tiny little goldfish. I just hope we can save him. Thank you for you advice.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater 

"Squirrel" <tribades RemoveThis @xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:lnojs1l3htvbqh91bfcm0qibcdjp49dlh3@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 04:16:41 GMT, "cindys" <cstein1 RemoveThis @rochester.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Koi-lo" <Invalid RemoveThis @invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:dqcemm$sr1$1@news.datemas.de...
> >>
> >> "cindys" <cstein1 RemoveThis @rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> >> news:Nfhyf.64124$XJ5.63557@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> >> > Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's
my
> >> > question:
> >> >
> >> > We have 2 black moor goldfish. One of them we had about a year in a
> >> > 1-gallon
> >> > aquarium, and he did fine. A few weeks ago, we moved him to a
10-gallon
> >> > aquarium and added a second black moor. About a week ago, I noticed
that
> >> > the
> >> > original black moor seemed to be having trouble swimming against the
> >> > current
> >> > of the filter. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that his tail seemed
> >> > frayed.
> >>
> >> Is there an ammonia problem in this new setup? Have you checked for
> >ammonia
> >> and nitrites?

We did today, and it's fine.
> >
> >After doing some research after I posted, I'm wondering. We'll be
checking
> >that as soon as we can get to the pet store tomorrow and whatever we need
to
> >test the water.
>
> Surely litmus would do the job??
>
We did get the kit.
Thanks for you advice.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater 

"Koi-lo" <Invalid.RemoveThis@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:dqes3a$f4u$1@news.datemas.de...
>
> "cindys" <cstein1.RemoveThis@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:4Dxyf.99850$ME5.73850@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> >
> > "Koi-lo" <Invalid.RemoveThis@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> >> Don't give up!
>
> Brevity snips.......
>
> > I seem to have a big emotional investment in keeping that little fish
> > alive.
> > We had to euthanize our nearly 15-year-old dog the day before
> > Thanksgiving,
> > and my mother has developed some serious health problems. I know in the
> > grand scheme of things, this is "only a goldfish," but if this fish dies
> > in
> > addition to these other things, I'll be really devastated.
>
> I'm so sorry to hear about the death of your dog and your mother's ill
> health. But do keep in mind that sometimes fish die no matter what we do.
> And they sometimes die for no apparent reason we can see or find. I just
> had a real cute orange and white telescope eye goldfish stop eating,
isolate
> itself, then in less than 48 hours it died. This was in a well
established
> 55g tank. There were no parasites, fin rots or any evidence of injury or
> disease.

I'm sorry to hear that.

>
> There is no medication to treat that, if it is indeed swim-bladder
disease.
> It looks like that shop will keep selling you meds and taking your
> money.......

I tried feeding the fish the inside of a pea. He was trying to eat it, but
it's not clear if he succeeded or not.
>
> > The heater is now history.
>
> I going to guess it was the same clueless person who sold you the meds
that
> also sold you a heater for GF. Please do not ask the people who work in
> these stores for information. You will do better asking HERE or searching
> the web for information.

I agree. And on that note...After reading the goldfish book, my husband and
I have concluded that we need to set up a hospital tank. We don't want to
make any mistakes. We brought out the old 1-gallon aquarium (where the
little fish lived happily for the past year). All that year, my husband had
been using tap water. Now, I see from my reading that we weren't supposed
to be doing that but that if we let the tap water sit for 24 hours, the
chlorine will dissipate into the air. Is that correct? Or should I go to the
store and buy tablets to eliminate the chlorine? Or should I buy a Brita
water filter? Or should I use bottled water? I'm just thinking to myself
that the bottled water may have a different mineral balance... After the
water in the 1-gallon tank has been sitting for 24 hours, I will want to
transfer the fish back to the old tank. But I know better than to just dump
him in. How shall I do this? Shall I remove some of the (disgusting) water
from the new aquarium to go with him? Shall I put him in a plastic bag
filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old
tank? (Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room
temperature). Shall I put gravel on the bottom of the 1-gallon tank? Shall I
put salt? (I know I'm not supposed to feed the fish for 4 days).

Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the
tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive.
Thank you again (everyone) for all your help.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater 

"cindys" <cstein1.DeleteThis@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:riAyf.71005$XJ5.8001@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
[snip]
> The water quality has now been tested, and it turned out to be fine.

Great!

Now,
> the woman at the pet shop has diagnosed a swim bladder problem. She
> advised
> my husband to feed the fish the inside of a pea (they were all out of the
> medication), saying it's not a magic cure-all, but it should make a big
> difference. Would you agree with that?

I've seen that advice before. I don't think it will
hurt at all. Goldfish like a little greenery anyway.
The pea(s) also help digestion. At this point I
think the less you do (in terms of medication) the
better. Just clean the water (as others have
suggested), make sure the good bio-bugs are
active (will be indicated by the presence of nitrAtes
and zero nitrItes or ammonia).

> My husband came home with $40 worth of stuff (the water test kit, new
> filters, and the goldfish book), all in the hopes of saving the life of
> this
> tiny little goldfish. I just hope we can save him. Thank you for you
> advice.
> Best regards,

> ---Cindy S.

Best of luck. I know what you're feeling. About
6 years ago I had a female Cory cat about 7 years
old (one of my first fish) that started acting weirdly.
In trying to heal her I learned SO MUCH about
hobby fish that I hadn't known before. Now instead
of one lonely 10 gallon with fish barely surviving my
benign neglect, I have three 20 gallon tanks, one 30
gallon, assorted smaller tanks (for hospital or
quarantine purposes) and all are heavily planted
and very healthy. (I didn't mention the three ponds
outside, did I? <g>) Much money and much
experimentation followed that little Cory cat and
I don't regret a penny of it. That's the nature of
the hobby. :)

Gail
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater 

"cindys" <cstein1 DeleteThis @rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ZENyf.73853$XJ5.23339@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

Just to reiterate what Ingrid said, pre-treating tap
water is essential. Several products remove
chlorine as well as chloramine. If you don't know
which your municipal water system uses, it doesn't
hurt to treat tap water for both (chloramines don't
dissipate over time like chlorine). I use Prime by
Seacham. An excellent product if you can find it.
Most pet stores should carry it. The treated
replacement water can be used right away or stored
for later use.

Don't bother with filtered or bottled water. It's
an added expense that shouldn't be necessary.

[snip]
> water filter? Or should I use bottled water? I'm just thinking to myself
> that the bottled water may have a different mineral balance...

Yep. But you're not changing out all that much
water. It's not like you're doing a 100% water
change. 20% weekly should be sufficient.

After the
> water in the 1-gallon tank has been sitting for 24 hours, I will want to
> transfer the fish back to the old tank. But I know better than to just
> dump
> him in. How shall I do this? Shall I remove some of the (disgusting) water
> from the new aquarium to go with him?

If you've matched the parameters fairly closely
(pH, nitrates, etc.) there shouldn't be a problem.
However ...

Shall I put him in a plastic bag
> filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old
> tank?

It depends on how different the two water
sources are. If not that different, you might
just try adding a bit of StressCoat, which
I usually do anyway with a partial water
change except in heavily planted tanks.

(Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room
> temperature). Shall I put gravel on the bottom of the 1-gallon tank?

Gravel not needed and probably more trouble
than it's worth in a goldfish tank.

Shall I
> put salt? (I know I'm not supposed to feed the fish for 4 days).

A little aquarium salt (read package for amount)
probably wouldn't hurt.

> Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the
> tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive.
> Thank you again (everyone) for all your help.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

Don't try to be too exact about matching parameters.
Fish generally are pretty tough, and unless you're
moving them into really different water parameters,
they'll probably be ok.

Hang in there. You're doing the best thing you
can, seeking information.

Good luck - Gail
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater 

"Koi-lo" <Invalid.TakeThisOut@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:dqghip$c1r$1@news.datemas.de...
>
> "cindys" <cstein1.TakeThisOut@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:ZENyf.73853$XJ5.23339@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> >
> > I tried feeding the fish the inside of a pea. He was trying to eat it,
but
> > it's not clear if he succeeded or not.
>
> I've not had luck with the pea method. I've had GF seem to improve with
> swim-bladder but they always died in the end. In fact most of them
wouldn't
> eat the peas. It's like oranges now. Some GF love oranges and others
wont
> touch them.

The sick fish didn't eat the pea. The other fish did.
>

> Buy something that removes chlorine and chloromines (sp?).

Done. I just did another partial water change and treated the water with a
tablet to remove the chlorine and chloroamines.
>
>
> Why not start doing partial water
> changes on the tank he's in now? Whatever he was exposed to he already
> caught.

I did end up leaving him in the regular tank rather than moving him to
another tank and stressing him further.
>
>
> I wouldn't move him. Start the partial water changes. What he needs now
is
> CLEAN WATER.

I did this and this time added the salt. I also changed the filter.

>
> Shall I put him in a plastic bag
> > filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old
> > tank? (Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room
> > temperature). Shall I put gravel on the bottom of the 1-gallon tank?
Shall
> > I
> > put salt? (I know I'm not supposed to feed the fish for 4 days).
>
> That will not cure swim-bladder problems. All it does is put a Band-Aid
on
> a skin cancer. The problem is STILL there and will resurface once fed
> again.

Is there no cure at all?
>
> > Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the
> > tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive.
> > Thank you again (everyone) for all your help.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> Please accept that he may not survive no matter what you do.

:-(

Thanks again.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater 

Actually Black Moors do better WITH a heater - especially
in such a small tank where temperature swings aren't uncommon.
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater 

"Koi-lo" <Invalid RemoveThis @invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:dqi37a$8ni$1@news.datemas.de...
>
> "cindys" <cstein1 RemoveThis @rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:HkWyf.100722$ME5.16219@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> >
> > "Koi-lo" <Invalid RemoveThis @invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> >> That will not cure swim-bladder problems. All it does is put a
Band-Aid
> > on
> >> a skin cancer. The problem is STILL there and will resurface once fed
> >> again.
> >
> > Is there no cure at all?
>
> Not that I'm aware of. It seems to be caused more by an internal
deformity
> of the body than any dietary or bacterial problem. GF after all, should
> look like Shubunkins or Comets (their natural shape), not hunchback as the
> fancies ones do. This is a genetic deformity that also deforms their
> internal organs, the swim bladder being one of them. I have never once
had
> one of these *normal* shaped GF develop a swim bladder problem.
>
> >> Please accept that he may not survive no matter what you do.
--------------
My little fish died. So, now we have only 1 fish in the aquarium. I have
been doing partial water changes every day, but the water doesn't seem to
look any cleaner (it's still all discolored from the tetracycline). My
husband wants to put the remaining fish in the 1 gallon aquarium (only long
enough to allow him to scrub out the bigger aquarium). I told him that I
thought it would be too stressful for the fish and also that any good
bacteria that had grown on the gravel in the meantime would be destroyed. He
also wants to get another fish ASAP, and he thinks I'm crazy to insist that
we quarantine any new fish for 2 weeks. In truth, even if we had quarantined
the current fish for 2 weeks, the situation with the other fish would have
happened. We've had this new fish for more than 2 weeks, and and he/she
still seems perfectly healthy. My husband thinks the reason the first fish
died was because we "killed him with kindness," and told me that if I hadn't
been insistent on putting the tetracycline in the tank, he would have still
been alive. Then, alternately, he will say that it was his own fault the
fish died because he overfed him (I don't think he did really overfeed him.
He put a few extra fish flakes in the tank a few times). We're just very
distraught because we had the original fish in a 1 gallon tank, did
everything wrong, including not neutralizing the chlorine in the tap water,
and the fish survived beautifully for over a year. Then, we moved him into a
bigger tank with supposedly optimal conditions, and now he's dead.

So, what's next? I didn't want to get any other fish for a while. My husband
told me as far as he's concerned, the quarantine is unnecessary. He says he
plans to go to the pet store on Sunday (5 days from now), get a new fish,
and dump him/her in the tank (after allowing him/her to acclimate to the
water temperature for several minutes first). How and when should we
introduce a new fish? (I agree in this particular instance that the 14-day
quarantine may be unwarranted because our current fish and the new fish
could easily have been together in the tank at the pet store).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater 

cindys wrote:

>
> So, what's next?

I haven't followed the whole story, but it sounds like some of my early
fish keeping efforts in the 60's.

I'm very sorry that your fish died, especially because you were attached
to it and had some other griefs to deal with.

As I understand it you now have a 10-gallon aquarium with one goldfish
and also a 1 gallon aquarium. If that is so, I'd just carry on with one
goldfish in the 10 gallon for a few months at least. The 1 gallon can be
used to raise some snails, and in distant future you may find other uses
for it.

Do a few 30% water changes every 3 days or so to get the medicines out,
and let your filter adjust. Please google aquarium cycling if you have
not done so. The healthy bacteria in your aquarium and filter will need
to re-establish after the medicines, and you may experience a "cycle".
Regular (weekly?) 30% water changes may mitigate any ammonia or nitrite
excess during this cycle.

If you have fluorescent lighting or some daylight, then adding live
plants would be a good idea. Hornwort, Java moss, Elodea/ Anacharis...
They absorb fish waste while growing, look good and give the goldfish
something to nibble on :) . The goldfish may eat all the plants, but
that's ok too.

Good luck!
Steve
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater 

cindys wrote:
> My little fish died.

I'm so sorry about your fish. It is wonderful that you cared so
much for the fish. You are a kind-hearted soul.

Linda and the zoo.
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater 

"cindys" <cstein1 RemoveThis @rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Eeizf.86144$XJ5.46314@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

> My little fish died. So, now we have only 1 fish in the aquarium.
[snip]

I'm sorry your fish didn't make it.

Your original fish survived for over a year in
less than optimal conditions, but chances are
good it was stressed and as soon as conditions
changed (new fish, new tank, new water) its
immune system couldn't handle the stress.
Mostly likely that's why it got sick and died,
not because of overfeeding, or medicating.

You seem to have a good handle on how to
treat fish. I would continue doing partial water
changes and eventually the remaining drugs will
be out of the tank. Have you put charcoal in the
filter? That usually will clear up the remaining
medications. I avoid those expensive cartridges;
instead I buy a small media bag (available at
Petsmart etc.) and a box of activated charcoal
(same source). When I need to use charcoal, it's
simple to put some in a media bag and remove it
when the problem is solved. The media bag
rinses easily and can be reused.

At this point, it sounds like your husband isn't
willing to follow advice about quarantine. To
keep peace in the house, maybe it's best to just
let him get another fish. Hope for the best.
Some of us (and I do include myself in that)
need to learn lessons the hard way before we
truly learn. You might get lucky and the two
new fish will do fine.

Good luck!

Gail
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater 

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 03:04:04 GMT, "cindys" <cstein1.DeleteThis@rochester.rr.com>
wrote:

>
>"Koi-lo" <Invalid.DeleteThis@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>news:dqi37a$8ni$1@news.datemas.de...
>>
>> "cindys" <cstein1.DeleteThis@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:HkWyf.100722$ME5.16219@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>> >
>> > "Koi-lo" <Invalid.DeleteThis@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> >> That will not cure swim-bladder problems. All it does is put a
>Band-Aid
>> > on
>> >> a skin cancer. The problem is STILL there and will resurface once fed
>> >> again.
>> >
>> > Is there no cure at all?
>>
>> Not that I'm aware of. It seems to be caused more by an internal
>deformity
>> of the body than any dietary or bacterial problem. GF after all, should
>> look like Shubunkins or Comets (their natural shape), not hunchback as the
>> fancies ones do. This is a genetic deformity that also deforms their
>> internal organs, the swim bladder being one of them. I have never once
>had
>> one of these *normal* shaped GF develop a swim bladder problem.
>>
>> >> Please accept that he may not survive no matter what you do.
>--------------
>My little fish died. So, now we have only 1 fish in the aquarium. I have
>been doing partial water changes every day, but the water doesn't seem to
>look any cleaner (it's still all discolored from the tetracycline). My
>husband wants to put the remaining fish in the 1 gallon aquarium (only long
>enough to allow him to scrub out the bigger aquarium). I told him that I
>thought it would be too stressful for the fish and also that any good
>bacteria that had grown on the gravel in the meantime would be destroyed. He
>also wants to get another fish ASAP, and he thinks I'm crazy to insist that
>we quarantine any new fish for 2 weeks. In truth, even if we had quarantined
>the current fish for 2 weeks, the situation with the other fish would have
>happened. We've had this new fish for more than 2 weeks, and and he/she
>still seems perfectly healthy. My husband thinks the reason the first fish
>died was because we "killed him with kindness," and told me that if I hadn't
>been insistent on putting the tetracycline in the tank, he would have still
>been alive. Then, alternately, he will say that it was his own fault the
>fish died because he overfed him (I don't think he did really overfeed him.
>He put a few extra fish flakes in the tank a few times). We're just very
>distraught because we had the original fish in a 1 gallon tank, did
>everything wrong, including not neutralizing the chlorine in the tap water,
>and the fish survived beautifully for over a year. Then, we moved him into a
>bigger tank with supposedly optimal conditions, and now he's dead.
>
>So, what's next? I didn't want to get any other fish for a while. My husband
>told me as far as he's concerned, the quarantine is unnecessary. He says he
>plans to go to the pet store on Sunday (5 days from now), get a new fish,
>and dump him/her in the tank (after allowing him/her to acclimate to the
>water temperature for several minutes first). How and when should we
>introduce a new fish? (I agree in this particular instance that the 14-day
>quarantine may be unwarranted because our current fish and the new fish
>could easily have been together in the tank at the pet store).
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
>
who wears the pants in your house??
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater 

"Squirrel" <tribades.TakeThisOut@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:g2d1t15l0c4m80sp8ms02u9ucj55j5np4t@4ax.com...
[snip]
>>
> who wears the pants in your house??

Your comment above was unnecessary.
Marriage is a compromise.
Cindy was doing her best for her fish.
Her decisions might not be your decisions
or mine, but I'm not so perfect that I'm
a candidate for godhood. Are you?

Gail
 >> Stay informed about: Black moor resting by heater