Arthritic Pup bouncing back!

Char;384549 Wrote:
> On 8/18/2011 1:31 PM, boxerluv86 wrote:-
> Hello All! Just wanted to share my dog Kenya's story about her fight
> against arthritis. Kenya is an 11 year old Boxer who is the most
> lovable
> and protective dog ever! Around her 10th year she started to slow down
> quite a bit and for those of you who know Boxers know something must
> be
> wrong. I took her to the vet and he claimed that she was showing signs
> of arthritis in her hind legs. :( I was devastated and even more heart
> broken when the meds he recommended for relief (rimadyl) had such
> terrible side effects.-
>
> I'd never use it and know many who feel the same. I feel you made a
> sound choice.
> -
> So i decided to start my own search for an all
> natural plan. I looked up natural supplements for pet arthritis and
> liquid glucosamine was the first thing to come up. The thing i
> immediately liked was that it was all natural and no reported side
> effects. I ordered her some from a company by the name of Synflex and
> she has been taking it ever since with great results. I'm very
> satisfied
> with this product and would recommend it to anyone and everyone! :)
> Just
> thought i would share since i am so please to have my happy pup back!
> Best wishes to all!-
> Let me mention that the difference between what you did and what the vet
>
> wanted to do is huge. You actually treated the root problem while the
> vet chose to use dangerous pain killers to hide it. You may want to look
>
> into finding a more holistic vet.
>
> I've found that vets that rely on pain killers, steroids and benedryl
> aren't interested in finding root causes of their patients' problems.
> They aren't solutions, just an easy way out.

NSAID may cause some negative effects/toxicity such as renal toxicity
and gastrointestinal ulceration. There is a need to nip the problem in
the bud rather than "killing the pain" and not addressing the ultimate
cause/s. Know more about your dog's condition and take a proactive
approach.




--
iAmTerri
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On 8/27/2011 5:52 AM, iAmTerri wrote:
> Char;384549 Wrote:
>> On 8/18/2011 1:31 PM, boxerluv86 wrote:-
>> Hello All! Just wanted to share my dog Kenya's story about her fight
>> against arthritis. Kenya is an 11 year old Boxer who is the most
>> lovable
>> and protective dog ever! Around her 10th year she started to slow down
>> quite a bit and for those of you who know Boxers know something must
>> be
>> wrong. I took her to the vet and he claimed that she was showing signs
>> of arthritis in her hind legs. :( I was devastated and even more heart
>> broken when the meds he recommended for relief (rimadyl) had such
>> terrible side effects.-
>>
>> I'd never use it and know many who feel the same. I feel you made a
>> sound choice.
>> -
>> So i decided to start my own search for an all
>> natural plan. I looked up natural supplements for pet arthritis and
>> liquid glucosamine was the first thing to come up. The thing i
>> immediately liked was that it was all natural and no reported side
>> effects. I ordered her some from a company by the name of Synflex and
>> she has been taking it ever since with great results. I'm very
>> satisfied
>> with this product and would recommend it to anyone and everyone! :)
>> Just
>> thought i would share since i am so please to have my happy pup back!
>> Best wishes to all!-
>> Let me mention that the difference between what you did and what the vet
>>
>> wanted to do is huge. You actually treated the root problem while the
>> vet chose to use dangerous pain killers to hide it. You may want to look
>>
>> into finding a more holistic vet.
>>
>> I've found that vets that rely on pain killers, steroids and benedryl
>> aren't interested in finding root causes of their patients' problems.
>> They aren't solutions, just an easy way out.
> NSAID may cause some negative effects/toxicity such as renal toxicity
> and gastrointestinal ulceration. There is a need to nip the problem in
> the bud rather than "killing the pain" and not addressing the ultimate
> cause/s. Know more about your dog's condition and take a proactive
> approach.

You are so very right about the nsaids. I personally have a liver
problem and doctors with much experience routinely tell me to take
nsaids anyway. Needless to say I don't keep a doctor without that
knowledge as my doctor for very long.
 >> Stay informed about: Arthritic Pup bouncing back! 

boxerluv86 wrote:
> Hello All! Just wanted to share my dog Kenya's story about her fight
> against arthritis. Kenya is an 11 year old Boxer who is the most lovable
> and protective dog ever! Around her 10th year she started to slow down
> quite a bit and for those of you who know Boxers know something must be
> wrong. I took her to the vet and he claimed that she was showing signs
> of arthritis in her hind legs. :( I was devastated and even more heart
> broken when the meds he recommended for relief (rimadyl) had such
> terrible side effects. So i decided to start my own search for an all
> natural plan. I looked up natural supplements for pet arthritis and
> liquid glucosamine was the first thing to come up. The thing i
> immediately liked was that it was all natural and no reported side
> effects. I ordered her some from a company by the name of Synflex and
> she has been taking it ever since with great results. I'm very satisfied
> with this product and would recommend it to anyone and everyone! :) Just
> thought i would share since i am so please to have my happy pup back!
> Best wishes to all!
>
>
>
>


I have an 8 year old boxer that's developing arthritis in her hips; one
side a lot worse than the others. Vet recommended glucosamine, fish
oil, and buffered (not enteric coated) aspirin.

I did some research on the Internet about glucosamine for dogs, and one
of the web sites that came up first (I think it was "arthritis-info.org"
or something like that) said liquid glucosamine formulations were far
superior to pills for dogs, and recommended a product called Flexicose
in particular. I bought a couple of bottles; they look just like
Synflex. Well, the liquid isn't really any easier to give than pills
because I have 2 other dogs (that don't need it yet) and they steal it.

Meanwhile I did a DNS lookup on the arthritis info web site that
referred me to Flexicose and I found that they were registered to the
same company (DTC) that sells the Flexicose. They tricked me! It still
might be a fine product, but I won't do business again with a company
that pulls a stunt like that. Now I see that there's no love lost
between Synflex and DTC.

Fast forward a few weeks. I bought a big bottle of glucosamine+MSM
tablets at Sam's Club and I've been giving her that. I still have a
bottle and a half of the expensive Flexicose and I doubt that I'll use
it. The pills seem to be helping; she actually can jump up on the bed
now, and climb the stairs. When it gets a little colder next month I
may start giving her a half an aspirin per day to help get her thru the
winter.

Now for the real reason I came here:

"Tinkerbell" (hows that for a name for a boxer?) is pretty easy to give
a pill to, but I'd like to find a way to make them into treats -- like
Heartgard, which she likes. I looked at glucosamine treats at Petco
today and nearly had a heart attack when I saw the prices! I wonder how
it would work to crush the pills and mix them into peanut butter cookie
dough balls and bake them? Or mix with raw chicken or liver or beef
heart and then dehydrate into jerky? I think I'll try canned vienna
sausages first. That might be a good way to use up that liquid stuff;
inject it into vienna sausages then leave them uncovered in the fridge
to dry out a little.

BTW, none of my dogs will eat a fish oil pill. What's up with that? I
thought they would love them because they (the pills) stink.

-Bob
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I'm lucky to have dogs that are such greedy-guts that they eat their
pills with their dry food.... dropped on top.

Most of the products on the pet store shelf are "iffy" for quality;
they may not have the amount of glucosamine stated on the label. Stick
with the brand you're using if it seems to be working for you!!!!!!!
Under the theory of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Press the pill into a piece of cheese (string cheese is loverly for
this) about an inch long.... half a Vienna sausage is also a good size.
However, it's cheaper and nearly as easy to "pill" a dog with a mouth
like a Boxer's.... that you can stick your hand into clear up to your
shoulder....

Open Tinker's mouth from the top.... hand over the top of her muzzle
(what there is of it) and press her flews against her canine teeth and
lift up. At the same time, give a command like "Open up" or "down the
hatch". Place the pill as far back as possible on the tongue, push over
the curve with a finger, close mouth, blow in her nose. This will make
her swallow.... as will stroking the front of her throat downward. Then
give her her dinner immediately. Yeh, you can also give her a SMALL
treat.... but dinner is a big treat. Or smear with peanut butter and
drop into food. Don't make this a big elaborate hoo-hah.... just very
matter-of-fact.

Fish oil gel caps.... Fun. (Ech...) First, you need to know that left
whole, the gel cap won't dissolve soon enough in the dog's GI system for
the oil to be absorbed. They need to be punctured or an end cut off....
squeaze oil onto food, drop cap on top of food. I have a pair of small
sharp scissors for this; embroidery scissors. I just wipe the oil off
the blade with a kleenex, wash with the dishes. Most dogs LOVE this.
But the rule at my house is; "I put it in your bowl; your job is to eat
it". Put it in as described, put the bowls down for the dogs and walk
away. No sound effects or nasty faces from you while preparing. If the
food isn't gone in 15-20 minutes, bowls come up, into baggies and into
fridge, and reappear at the next feeding time. Your dogs won't miss
more than a couple of meals....

Aspirin.... My vet has me use the 81 mg enteric coated aspirin sold for
children or for heart attack prevention. It's the same dose as half an
aspirin, and it dissolves in the upper bowel, not the stomach, so gets
mixed into the thick sludge that food is by the time it gets to that
location. These are tiny, and have a hard, slippery coating. ASK YOUR
VET if this would be okay; some vets prefer half a regular buffered
aspirin. My vet told me to give one a day to my 15 yo geezer on "his
bad days", not daily. So he gets one on the days he creaks when he
stands up, instead of popping to his feet. So far, I've never had to
give aspirin more than 3 days in a row, and then mainly when he overdid
the day before with exercise, or it's especially cold and damp.
Alternatively, check out pet aspirin at the pet store; it has the
equivalent of Maalox added. Check with your vet before using this, too.
Let the dog's behavior tell you when this added medication is needed,
and when it gets to the point of daily for more than a week, ask your
vet if you should continue, add a Rolaids or Tums tablet or not....
(most dogs like to chomp these up)... or what.... Some vets add
famotidine, the generic version of one of the heartburn meds that
supresses acid formation.... which I buy off-the-shelf at the pharmacy
section at the supermarket or drug store. (My old guy gets this for what
the vet thinks IS heartburn already). JUST ASK YOUR VET BEFORE MAKING
CHANGES ON YOUR OWN!!!!!!

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia, USA
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"zxcvbob" wrote in message

> I did some research on the Internet about glucosamine for dogs, and one of
> the web sites that came up first (I think it was "arthritis-info.org" or
> something like that) said liquid glucosamine formulations were far
> superior to pills for dogs,
............I'm not sure that is really true. You'd be better off using
Google Scholar for research. For example:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090023306000554
I'm not sure there is any research on liquid vs. pill.
All the (commercial) websites said "studies show" liquid more bioavailable
than pills, then gave me no access to the studies.

http://www.flexicose.com/ingredients.html
The main thing I don't like about these liquid preps are the preservatives.


> Fast forward a few weeks. I bought a big bottle of glucosamine+MSM
> tablets at Sam's Club and I've been giving her that. When it gets a
> little colder next month I may start giving her a half an aspirin per day
> to help get her thru the winter.
............I'd avoid giving any NSAID as long as you could. They're all,
including asprin, hard on the stomach (or kidneys). You'd be better off
getting some fish oil with vit E and Vit C into your dog and trying yucca,
boswellia or glucosamine with chondroitin and MSM.

A more trustworthy commercial site:
http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/arthritis-joint-problems/
(NO, I'm not affiliated with Lew, I just trust her judgment)

Googling dog arthritis brought up very little in the way of information
only. Here is a very trustworthy site. I was on a list with Mary for years
and she thoroughly researches everything.
http://www.dogaware.com/health/arthritis.html

I wonder how
> it would work to crush the pills and mix them into peanut butter cookie
> dough balls and bake them?
...............Why would the dog care if the cookie was baked? (I don't!)
I wouldn't subject the med to heat or freezing.

> BTW, none of my dogs will eat a fish oil pill. What's up with that?
............Pierce pill and squirt over food. Unless they decide to starve
themselves ( a favorite trick of cats, but not usually dogs), they'll eat
it.

buglady
take out the dog before replying
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"Jo Wolf" wrote in message

> I'm lucky to have dogs that are such greedy-guts that they eat their
> pills with their dry food.... dropped on top.

..............I have one like that. For the other I have to hide the pill in
a ball of meat. He chews nothing.
>
> Open Tinker's mouth from the top.... hand over the top of her muzzle
> (what there is of it) and press her flews against her canine teeth and
> lift up.
.........Seems like a lot of work to me! Chop up a hot dog into small bits.
Toss them at your dog one after another as fast as possible. Treat, treat,
treat, treat with pill, treat. Whoops, what was that I swallowed? Not only
effective, but fun for the dog.

> Fish oil gel caps.... Fun. (Ech...) First, you need to know that left
> whole, the gel cap won't dissolve soon enough in the dog's GI system for
> the oil to be absorbed.

...........Never heard of that and I'd like to know the source of the info.
Soft gels are made of gelatin.
http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/articles/2004/03/weighing-the-be...its-lim
The main objections are from vegetarians and others who will not consume
certain animal products due to religious beliefs. Not digestion issues.

buglady
take out the dog before replying
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buglady wrote:

> ........Seems like a lot of work to me! Chop up a hot dog into small bits.
> Toss them at your dog one after another as fast as possible. Treat, treat,
> treat, treat with pill, treat. Whoops, what was that I swallowed? Not only
> effective, but fun for the dog.
>

That might work with my lab, once or twice until he figured it out, but
not Tinkerbell. She's not very food-motivated and will not even try to
catch anything. She does love cheap "milk bone" type dog biscuits.
That's why I thought I might bake some special cookies...

-Bob
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"zxcvbob" wrote in message

> buglady wrote:
>
>> ........Seems like a lot of work to me! Chop up a hot dog into small
>> bits. Toss them at your dog one after another as fast as possible.
>> Treat, treat, treat, treat with pill, treat. Whoops, what was that I
>> swallowed? Not only effective, but fun for the dog.
>>
>
> That might work with my lab, once or twice until he figured it out, but
> not Tinkerbell. She's not very food-motivated and will not even try to
> catch anything. She does love cheap "milk bone" type dog biscuits. That's
> why I thought I might bake some special cookies...


...................Get a pill gun.
http://www.entirelypets.com/pillgun.html

buglady
take out the dog before replying
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buglady wrote:
> "zxcvbob" wrote:
>> She does love cheap "milk bone" type dog biscuits. That's
>> why I thought I might bake some special cookies...
>
>
> ..................Get a pill gun.
> http://www.entirelypets.com/pillgun.html
>



I've got a couple of those, the bigger goat-sized ones, for giving
pills to the lab ("Gilligan") although it's usually just easier to
wrestle his mouth open and do it the old fashioned way. If I try to
trick him, he figures that out pretty quickly and then I can't get him
to take his Heartgard or anything for a while.

Gilligan is really smart, although he acts dumb; I really think he
likes to be underestimated. And he has convinced my wife and daughter
than he is deaf. He's not deaf, he was just ignoring them, and
figured out when they were just testing him. :-) He hears just fine
even when he's looking the other way when he wants to.

-Bob
 >> Stay informed about: Arthritic Pup bouncing back! 

If you understand how the glucopolysaccharides (how's that for a big
word), of which glucosamine is one, work, it's easy to see why liquid
glucosamine is NO more effective or quickly effective than the pill
version. I'll use "G" instead of typing out the word all the time.

The G changes the amount (more) and viscosity (thicker and "slipperier")
of the fluid in the joint capsules. It also reduces irritation. When
you start giving it, the joint capsule is already full. It takes TIME
for it to completely replace itself with the "newer, better" fluid....
about 6-8 weeks, but slow changes begin at once, so some dogs show
aspects of good results well before the end of that time. The end
result, of course, is less irritation in the tissues lining the joint
capsule, and rough, arthritic surfaces grinding against each other less,
and moving smoother. If you stop giving the G, the reversing of the
process also takes the same amount of TIME. You can even miss a day's
dose without any apparent change in the dog's comfort because the change
in the fluid in one day is minimal, and would probably require chemical
analysis to tell the dose was missed. However, if you miss a week's
doses, or a month's, the changes may be visibly apparent to the owner.
With no other type of medication is there this lag time situation.

The last two times that Consumer's Union tested human G products, they
also tested some made for pets. BOTH types of products had overall poor
reports for containing the amount of G stated on the label, although
some were okay. My purchases are guided by their results, and I buy
human versions (price per dose is usually lower than for pet products)
that they approved.

About the fish oil gelcaps. Piercing them and squirting over the food
came as directions from several vets. The hard, thin gelatin capsules
used for powdered substances dissolve quickly. The much thicker, soft
coverings used for (oily) liquids take much longer.... As in humans,
the oil must be available by the time it reaches the point in the small
intestine where the gall bladder releases bile to process it and release
the active ingredients in the oil for absorption. The dog's GI system
is shorter both in actual length and proportional length, so a gelcap
given to a dog is less likely to be dissolved by the right time than one
taken by a human. But both types of capsules get gooey on the outside
if drooled on or in liquids in food, and stick to the bowl
tenaciously.... and often get left behind.

I've only had one dog that had the eye-mouth coordination to catch
food/pills..... {groan} And even my boss's Boxer boy, Slider, with his
huge maw, misses almost 1/3 of the treats she tosses to him in training.
So I stopped suggesting that as an easy method of pilling.

Some years ago, I tried a plastic piller. It was easier to pill even a
small dog the classical way with fingers..... so for me, that's a
second-round suggestion....

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia, USA
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"Jo Wolf" wrote in message

> About the fish oil gelcaps. Piercing them and squirting over the food
> came as directions from several vets. The hard, thin gelatin capsules
> used for powdered substances dissolve quickly. The much thicker, soft
> coverings used for (oily) liquids take much longer.... As in humans,
> the oil must be available by the time it reaches the point in the small
> intestine where the gall bladder releases bile to process it and release
> the active ingredients in the oil for absorption. The dog's GI system
> is shorter both in actual length and proportional length, so a gelcap
> given to a dog is less likely to be dissolved by the right time than one
> taken by a human.

............Source of this information? It doesn't need to be completely
dissolved, only weakened enough to release contents.
If there really was a problem "opening" these caps, we would have heard
about it by now.
Yes, the digestion system is shorter in a dog, but the stomach acid is
higher.

buglady
take out the dog before replying
 >> Stay informed about: Arthritic Pup bouncing back! 

> About the fish oil gelcaps.  Piercing them and squirting over the food
> came as directions from several vets.

Our cattledog simply chews them, self-piercing if you will. The sense
I get from him is "tasty, but a bit chewy."

Our lab and the cattledog both eat anything and everything in their
bowl, so pills just get dropped in with the kibble. If it's something
with a really bad taste like an antibiotic, I might have to dip it in
peanutbutter first, at the most.

Our akita used to be a nightmare to pill, which made treating her
arthritis an adventure. Peanutbutter, cheese, mushed into soft bread,
bread-with-butter, bread-with-peanutbutter, bread-with-cheese,
roastbeef or other deli meat, pill pockets, all might or might not
work depending on her mood that day. Bread-with-beef-stew worked the
longest. It got to the point where she would chew the treat off the
pill and spit it out, if she took it at all. All with that wise look
and the little bobble of her fluffy curlicue tail as if to say "I know
what you're up to."

So we took her to her breeder one time for boarding when we were about
to go on a trip, and were telling her the rigamarole.

"So did you get her to eat her pill this morning?"
"No."
"Why not just do this?" and two seconds later her mouth had been
popped open, pill dropped in, and throat rubbed, all in one quick
simple-as-you-please motion...made it look effortless, and my dog's
expression of "what just happenned here...?" was probably as amusing
as me scraping my jaw off the floor. "It just takes a little
practice," she said.

Since then, I've managed it a time or two when needed, but haven't
needed to call on the skill with our current crew...but it really does
work, even when nothing else does.

I will also note that our vet has a compounding service. Any
medication can be compounded to make a more palatable pill (bacon,
cheese, liver, tuna, whatever). Depending on the medication or
supplement, you might want to see if your vet offers something
similar.

--Glenn Lyford
 >> Stay informed about: Arthritic Pup bouncing back! 

buglady - On the piercing/cutting.... Just going by what my vets have
told me, and friends report that their vets have told them. But if you
have a dog that will chew or chomp the gelcap.... so much the better.

Glenn - Great that your rascal will chew the gelcaps! Wish my dogs
would! I can sympathize with you about the problem of pilling your
Akita. Eons ago, when we gave heartworm pills daily, I tried handling
the situation like I would with a child.... all the coatings, coverings,
mixing crushed pills into applesauce, etc.... and it frustrated both me
and the dog. Then a neighbor told me how to pop it in and rub or
blow.... Max could use his tongue to move the pill over into a cheek,
then spit it out, so I just started poking it down a bit deeper. But
don't ever ask me to pill a cat!!!

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia, USA
 >> Stay informed about: Arthritic Pup bouncing back!