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Next: Animal emotions - I
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Since: Jan 29, 2006 Posts: 20
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:44 pm
Post subject: Animal emotions - II Archived from groups: alt>animals>ethics>vegetarian, others (more info?)
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Animals do not feel "disappointment". They don't have
an emotional state of "hopefulness", so they can't
experience "disappointment". If a mountain lion
doesn't catch the deer, it doesn't mope or do
*anything* that would indicate "disappointment". It
just starts hunting again.
If you tell your dog you're going to take it out for a
walk, and actually get the leash out and the dog gets
excited, but then you sit down and drink a beer and
watch the ballgame instead, the dog is not
"disappointed". It may appear a little confused,
because the usual outcome (of actually going for the
walk) did not follow the auditory signal "walk" or the
visual/auditory signal of "pick up leash", but it
doesn't feel "sad" or "disappointed". In a matter of
seconds, it has forgotten all about the walk. If
instead, a few minutes later, you engage the dog with
some other enjoyable behavior, the dog will participate
with exactly the same enthusiasm as it would have done
if this secondary activity had been the initial
stimulus instead of "walk".
Animals do not experience "disappointment". It is a
complex thought outside their mental world. >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: May 11, 2006 Posts: 3
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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>
> Yes. I've had lots of pets. I've observed that lots of unsophisticated
> pet owners mistakenly believe their animals have all sorts of capabilities
> the animals don't really have.
Bullshit!I've read lot's of BS about this topic.If dogs aren't aware why do
some bark at other dogs on the television?Mine does,many times he has raised
hell when he see's another dog on tv.When the scene changes and no more dog
on tv he stops barking at the tv.I do have a 62" tv so it makes it easier
for my dog to see the other dog,but none the less he is barking at another
dog as far as he's concerned.And I'll never believe that he's not! >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: Dec 26, 2005 Posts: 139
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:22 am
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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seabird wrote:
> Well I've lived with a cat for six years. She feels pain,
That's not an emotion.
> anger, affection, boredom, and yes--disappointment.
No, not disappointment. Anger, affection and boredom
are primitive emotions that cats and other animals can
feel. Disappointment is a complex emotion that
requires mental abilities they simply don't have.
> She has every bit as many
> sides to her emotions as I have, I am quite sure.
No. This is where you are PROJECTING, also known as
anthropmorphization. You are trying to see human
qualities in your cat that the beast just doesn't have.
You really like your cat - in some misguided way, you
may even think you love her - but she doesn't
experience the bulk of what you attribute to her. >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: May 11, 2006 Posts: 70
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 2:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Leif Erikson wrote:
> seabird wrote:
>>...
>> I don't believe that dogs are not disappointed..have you ever actually
>> lived with a dog?? ???
>
>
> Yes. I've had lots of pets. I've observed that lots of unsophisticated
> pet owners mistakenly believe their animals have all sorts of
> capabilities the animals don't really have.
If pets have no emotions, why did you bother having them? Why not a
rubber tree instead? Surely you must have gotten _SOMETHING_ from the
arrangement. Otherwise your pet is merely a bother that must be fed,
then cleaned up after.
What reward did _YOU_ get from the arrangement?
Jack >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: Dec 26, 2005 Posts: 139
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 2:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jack Crenshaw wrote:
> Leif Erikson wrote:
>
>> seabird wrote:
>
>
> >>...
>
>>> I don't believe that dogs are not disappointed..have you ever actually
>>> lived with a dog?? ???
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes. I've had lots of pets. I've observed that lots of
>> unsophisticated pet owners mistakenly believe their animals have all
>> sorts of capabilities the animals don't really have.
>
>
> If pets have no emotions, why did you bother having them?
I didn't say they have no emotions. Try to read with
better comprehension next time, please.
> Why not a
> rubber tree instead? Surely you must have gotten _SOMETHING_ from the
> arrangement. Otherwise your pet is merely a bother that must be fed,
> then cleaned up after.
>
> What reward did _YOU_ get from the arrangement?
Who cares what the reward for me is? Suffice it to say
there is one, or I wouldn't keep the pets. >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: Dec 26, 2005 Posts: 139
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 12:19 am
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dave wrote:
> Leif Erikson wrote:
>
>>Animals do not feel "disappointment". They don't have
>>an emotional state of "hopefulness", so they can't
>>experience "disappointment". If a mountain lion
>>doesn't catch the deer, it doesn't mope or do
>>*anything* that would indicate "disappointment". It
>>just starts hunting again.
>>
>>If you tell your dog you're going to take it out for a
>>walk, and actually get the leash out and the dog gets
>>excited, but then you sit down and drink a beer and
>>watch the ballgame instead, the dog is not
>>"disappointed". It may appear a little confused,
>>because the usual outcome (of actually going for the
>>walk) did not follow the auditory signal "walk" or the
>>visual/auditory signal of "pick up leash", but it
>>doesn't feel "sad" or "disappointed".
>
>
> If the dog is confused by the fact that the usual outcome
> does not follow the visual/auditory signal surely that
> implies that the dog must have anticipated
He didn't anticipate. Dogs don't anticipate. >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: May 13, 2006 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 7:03 am
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Leif Erikson" <pipes.RemoveThis@thedismalscience.net> wrote in message
news:aC99g.1878$Jf.804@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> He didn't anticipate. Dogs don't anticipate.
They most certainly do, my dog anticipates me coming home..that's been
proven
Anticipates getting his dinner
Anticipated going for a ride as he sees me getting dressed
Anticipates going outside with me when he sees me filling my hummer feeders
Sees me going into the drawer where the nail clippers are he anticipates
getting his nails clipped and takes off.
Anticipates many things.
an·tic·i·pate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-ts-pt)
v. an·tic·i·pat·ed, an·tic·i·pat·ing, an·tic·i·pates
v. tr.
1.. To feel or realize beforehand; foresee: hadn't anticipated the crowds
at the zoo.
2.. To look forward to, especially with pleasure; expect: anticipated a
pleasant hike in the country.
3.. To deal with beforehand; act so as to mitigate, nullify, or prevent:
anticipated the storm by boarding up the windows. See Synonyms at expect.
4.. To cause to happen in advance; accelerate.
5.. To use in advance, as income not yet available.
6.. To pay (a debt) before it is due. >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: Apr 03, 2005 Posts: 409
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 11:51 am
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Thu, 11 May 2006 Goo wrote:
>seabird wrote:
>
>> I don't believe that dogs are not disappointed..have you ever actually
>> lived with a dog?? ???
>
>Yes. I've had lots of pets. I've observed that lots
>of unsophisticated pet owners mistakenly believe their
>animals have all sorts of capabilities the animals
>don't really have.
That's a more popular but somewhat less moronic brand
of idiocy than you're displaying Goober. But you fall for that
one yourself too Goo...let's not forget how you hug all over
Henry "ar" Salt's talking pig... >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: Apr 03, 2005 Posts: 409
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 12:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Wed, 10 May 2006, a confused and desperate Goober maundered:
>Animals do not feel "disappointment". They don't have
>an emotional state of "hopefulness", so they can't
>experience "disappointment". If a mountain lion
>doesn't catch the deer, it doesn't mope or do
>*anything* that would indicate "disappointment".
How could you know, Goo?
>It just starts hunting again.
>
>If you tell your dog you're going to take it out for a
>walk, and actually get the leash out and the dog gets
>excited, but then you sit down and drink a beer and
>watch the ballgame instead, the dog is not
>"disappointed". It may appear a little confused,
>because the usual outcome (of actually going for the
>walk) did not follow the auditory signal "walk" or the
>visual/auditory signal of "pick up leash",
How could that confuse it Goober?
>but it doesn't feel "sad" or "disappointed".
What prevents it from feeling that too, Goo? >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: May 11, 2006 Posts: 70
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 2:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Leif Erikson wrote:
> Jack Crenshaw wrote:
>
>> Leif Erikson wrote:
>>
>>> seabird wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >>...
>>
>>>> I don't believe that dogs are not disappointed..have you ever actually
>>>> lived with a dog?? ???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes. I've had lots of pets. I've observed that lots of
>>> unsophisticated pet owners mistakenly believe their animals have all
>>> sorts of capabilities the animals don't really have.
>>
>>
>>
>> If pets have no emotions, why did you bother having them?
>
>
> I didn't say they have no emotions. Try to read with better
> comprehension next time, please.
Wow. Brilliance and civility in the same package. What a guy.
Jack >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: Dec 26, 2005 Posts: 139
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Finola wrote:
> "Leif Erikson" <pipes RemoveThis @thedismalscience.net> wrote in message
> news:aC99g.1878$Jf.804@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
>>He didn't anticipate. Dogs don't anticipate.
>
>
> They most certainly do, my dog anticipates me coming home..that's been
> proven
> Anticipates getting his dinner
> Anticipated going for a ride as he sees me getting dressed
> Anticipates going outside with me when he sees me filling my hummer feeders
> Sees me going into the drawer where the nail clippers are he anticipates
> getting his nails clipped and takes off.
All of these are merely stimulus/response. They aren't
anticipation. You can anticipate the next occurrence
of Christmas, or payday, or some other event that
doesn't require a signal from someone else in order for
you to think about it. Your dog can't do that, nor can
any other non-human animal. >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: May 13, 2006 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Leif Erikson" <pipes DeleteThis @thedismalscience.net> wrote in message
news:ZTn9g.3978$u4.1018@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Finola wrote:
>> "Leif Erikson" <pipes DeleteThis @thedismalscience.net> wrote in message
>> news:aC99g.1878$Jf.804@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>>
>>>He didn't anticipate. Dogs don't anticipate.
>>
>>
>> They most certainly do, my dog anticipates me coming home..that's been
>> proven
>> Anticipates getting his dinner
>> Anticipated going for a ride as he sees me getting dressed
>> Anticipates going outside with me when he sees me filling my hummer
>> feeders
>> Sees me going into the drawer where the nail clippers are he anticipates
>> getting his nails clipped and takes off.
>
> All of these are merely stimulus/response. They aren't anticipation. You
> can anticipate the next occurrence of Christmas, or payday, or some other
> event that doesn't require a signal from someone else in order for you to
> think about it. Your dog can't do that, nor can any other non-human
> animal.
Apparently you don't understand the meaning of the word, which is why I
copied the definition of the word for you.
See I anticipated that you would have an ignorant response.
I think my dog is actually smarter than you are. >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: Dec 26, 2005 Posts: 139
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jack Crenshaw wrote:
> Leif Erikson wrote:
>
>> Jack Crenshaw wrote:
>>
>>> Leif Erikson wrote:
>>>
>>>> seabird wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>...
>>>
>>>>> I don't believe that dogs are not disappointed..have you ever actually
>>>>> lived with a dog?? ???
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes. I've had lots of pets. I've observed that lots of
>>>> unsophisticated pet owners mistakenly believe their animals have all
>>>> sorts of capabilities the animals don't really have.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If pets have no emotions, why did you bother having them?
>>
>>
>>
>> I didn't say they have no emotions. Try to read with better
>> comprehension next time, please.
>
>
> Wow. Brilliance and civility in the same package. What a guy.
You understood me as having said something I didn't
say. I can only assume you didn't comprehend what I wrote. >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: May 13, 2006 Posts: 263
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Leif Erikson" <pipes.TakeThisOut@thedismalscience.net> wrote in message
news:ZTn9g.3978$u4.1018@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Finola wrote:
>> "Leif Erikson" <pipes.TakeThisOut@thedismalscience.net> wrote in message
>> news:aC99g.1878$Jf.804@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>>
>>>He didn't anticipate. Dogs don't anticipate.
>>
>>
>> They most certainly do, my dog anticipates me coming home..that's been
>> proven
>> Anticipates getting his dinner
>> Anticipated going for a ride as he sees me getting dressed
>> Anticipates going outside with me when he sees me filling my hummer
>> feeders
>> Sees me going into the drawer where the nail clippers are he anticipates
>> getting his nails clipped and takes off.
>
> All of these are merely stimulus/response. They aren't anticipation. You
> can anticipate the next occurrence of Christmas, or payday, or some other
> event that doesn't require a signal from someone else in order for you to
> think about it. Your dog can't do that, nor can any other non-human
> animal.
That is not only a mischaracterization of the animals response, its also a
serious mischaracterization of our own anticipatory responses. We rely on
stimuli as well.
T >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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Since: Nov 20, 2005 Posts: 102
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Animal emotions - II [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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TaraG wrote:
> "Leif Erikson" <pipes.TakeThisOut@thedismalscience.net> wrote in message
> news:ZTn9g.3978$u4.1018@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
....
>>>"Leif Erikson" <pipes.TakeThisOut@thedismalscience.net> wrote in message
>>>news:aC99g.1878$Jf.804@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>>>>He didn't anticipate. Dogs don't anticipate.
>>>They most certainly do, my dog anticipates me coming home..that's been
>>>proven
....
>>All of these are merely stimulus/response. They aren't anticipation. You
>>can anticipate the next occurrence of Christmas, or payday, or some other
>>event that doesn't require a signal from someone else in order for you to
>>think about it. Your dog can't do that, nor can any other non-human
>>animal.
> That is not only a mischaracterization of the animals response, its also a
> serious mischaracterization of our own anticipatory responses. We rely on
> stimuli as well.
Also, animals in general, and dogs in particular, will respond before
any specific stimuli have been provided, if there is a routine in
their life. For example, my own dog knows that we generally go to bed
around a certain time. Even if we have something which keeps us from
giving the usual going-to-bed signals, like drawing the bath water,
the dog will go into the bedroom and lie down in his usual place at
the right time. The humans may still be doing not-going-to-bed things
like reading, working on the computer, or watching TV, but the dog
clearly anticipates that they *ought* to be going to bed around this
time.
Recent studies which show that some animals can practice deceptive
behaviors to fool conspecifics also show that the animals can
anticipate that if they provide certain stimuli, their fellows
will probably respond in a certain way. So they learn to provide
false stimuli. This must demonstrate a very complex and
sophisticated form of anticipation. They not only can anticipate that
"If I do *this* the other animal will do *that*" but "if I do *this*
the other animal will respond in *this* way, so I will fool him/her
by providing stimuli which will make him do something else instead."
It's a double layer of anticipation, and cannot be instinctive.
It's not like a bird pretending to have a broken wing, but is based on
behaviors in a social group learned by observation. >> Stay informed about: Animal emotions - II |
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